The many vague, and poorly thought up economic policies of the far left.

Phoenixmgs

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Many people are horrible with money. You can easily save money. If I got fired today, I can live for probably 2 years without any income. And I've never made more than 40k in a year.

Not that I don't agree that there is too much wealth disparity. I just don't agree that people don't have money. In the video at about 4:50, how do you bring in over 100k and not have money? Super easy thing that stuck out, phone bill of 280/month, it's 15/month at freaking T-Mobile (I know because I got that). So they have 2 phones probably so they should have an extra 250/month or 3,000/year just based on that alone. And she claims she budgets to the dollar... my ass she does.

 
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tippy2k2

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Many people are horrible with money. You can easily save money. If I got fired today, I can live for probably 2 years without any income. And I've never made more than 40k in a year.

Not that I don't agree that there is too much wealth disparity. I just don't agree that people don't have money. In the video at about 4:50, how do you bring in over 100k and not have money? Super easy thing that stuck out, phone bill of 280/month, it's 15/month at freaking T-Mobile (I know because I got that). So they have 2 phones probably so they should have an extra 250/month or 3,000/year just based on that alone. And she claims she budgets to the dollar... my ass she does.


The number varies survey to survey but most I've seen hover between 60-70% (with the Forbes one at 78%) of people living to paycheck to paycheck (and in the Forbes case, The Paycheck to Paycheck definition means you are not saving ANY money, which includes investments like 401K).

Are there people who are just shit with money? Obviously, I don't think anyone would question that. But if 60% (on the low end) of your country's citizens are living paycheck to paycheck, what seems more likely: Everyone is just really bad with money or your economic system is completely broken? This doesn't even get into the situations of the people that DID do everything right and then got fucked over by an accident/illness because our healthcare system in this country is a dumpster fire.

As someone who graduated college in 2008, it's been a shit sandwich with a bag of shit chips and a big tall glass of diarrhea for myself and many of my peers. Sure, some of us manage to luck out and get decently stable but many didn't and/or couldn't (I got INCREDIBLY lucky when it came to many aspects of my life, primarily when I bought my house in 2019, somehow managing to dodge all the people who kept overbidding me by $10,000+ in cash that stopped me from getting a house even though I was looking for 2+ years AND just before the interest rates spiked up, making it damn near impossible for many to buy a house. Even if my house went back to the 2019 price instead of the stupid 60% upped value the house is currently at, I wouldn't be able to afford my house if I bought it today, let alone trying to buy my house at what it's appraised at right now).

I guess both you and Gergar can go ahead and believe that you're both just much smarter and more disciplined than everyone else because you managed to get a little bit ahead in the rigged game that is this shithole country and not that this shithole country is one giant rigged game fucking all of us over so that a couple thousand people can have more money than God...
 

Gergar12

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The number varies survey to survey but most I've seen hover between 60-70% (with the Forbes one at 78%) of people living to paycheck to paycheck (and in the Forbes case, The Paycheck to Paycheck definition means you are not saving ANY money, which includes investments like 401K).

Are there people who are just shit with money? Obviously, I don't think anyone would question that. But if 60% (on the low end) of your country's citizens are living paycheck to paycheck, what seems more likely: Everyone is just really bad with money or your economic system is completely broken? This doesn't even get into the situations of the people that DID do everything right and then got fucked over by an accident/illness because our healthcare system in this country is a dumpster fire.

As someone who graduated college in 2008, it's been a shit sandwich with a bag of shit chips and a big tall glass of diarrhea for myself and many of my peers. Sure, some of us manage to luck out and get decently stable but many didn't and/or couldn't (I got INCREDIBLY lucky when it came to many aspects of my life, primarily when I bought my house in 2019, somehow managing to dodge all the people who kept overbidding me by $10,000+ in cash that stopped me from getting a house even though I was looking for 2+ years AND just before the interest rates spiked up, making it damn near impossible for many to buy a house. Even if my house went back to the 2019 price instead of the stupid 60% upped value the house is currently at, I wouldn't be able to afford my house if I bought it today, let alone trying to buy my house at what it's appraised at right now).

I guess both you and Gergar can go ahead and believe that you're both just much smarter and more disciplined than everyone else because you managed to get a little bit ahead in the rigged game that is this shithole country and not that this shithole country is one giant rigged game fucking all of us over so that a couple thousand people can have more money than God...
Not really bro, I don't have a full-time job as of right now. I do, however, have a Costco card, and I don't go to restaurants unless I have to. Also, if you have $100,000 a month a year... unless you have medical bills or a special situation like that, my god, you are an idiot. Downgrade your lifestyle. Your kids don't have to go to rich douchebag private schools; you don't need a vacation every year, and the list goes on.



Of course, she supports it. So unless you work for the government (I can't because they think I am about to sell the NGAD plans to the CCP if I get in due to being born in China), or become a teacher and get yelled at, and made fun of by douchebag students whose parents don't know how to parent, or become a nurse and get yelled at by old people, your shit out of luck because I guarantee you this will pass, and social security will become insolvent and you will be paid less than the cost of living. Bye bye stock market ETF retirement plans, and welcome the layoffs.
 
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Gergar12

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Many people are horrible with money. You can easily save money. If I got fired today, I can live for probably 2 years without any income. And I've never made more than 40k in a year.

Not that I don't agree that there is too much wealth disparity. I just don't agree that people don't have money. In the video at about 4:50, how do you bring in over 100k and not have money? Super easy thing that stuck out, phone bill of 280/month, it's 15/month at freaking T-Mobile (I know because I got that). So they have 2 phones probably so they should have an extra 250/month or 3,000/year just based on that alone. And she claims she budgets to the dollar... my ass she does.

Funny, my phone bill from Spectrum is 20 dollars on the family plan, so three phones are 60 dollars.
 

Phoenixmgs

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The number varies survey to survey but most I've seen hover between 60-70% (with the Forbes one at 78%) of people living to paycheck to paycheck (and in the Forbes case, The Paycheck to Paycheck definition means you are not saving ANY money, which includes investments like 401K).

Are there people who are just shit with money? Obviously, I don't think anyone would question that. But if 60% (on the low end) of your country's citizens are living paycheck to paycheck, what seems more likely: Everyone is just really bad with money or your economic system is completely broken? This doesn't even get into the situations of the people that DID do everything right and then got fucked over by an accident/illness because our healthcare system in this country is a dumpster fire.

As someone who graduated college in 2008, it's been a shit sandwich with a bag of shit chips and a big tall glass of diarrhea for myself and many of my peers. Sure, some of us manage to luck out and get decently stable but many didn't and/or couldn't (I got INCREDIBLY lucky when it came to many aspects of my life, primarily when I bought my house in 2019, somehow managing to dodge all the people who kept overbidding me by $10,000+ in cash that stopped me from getting a house even though I was looking for 2+ years AND just before the interest rates spiked up, making it damn near impossible for many to buy a house. Even if my house went back to the 2019 price instead of the stupid 60% upped value the house is currently at, I wouldn't be able to afford my house if I bought it today, let alone trying to buy my house at what it's appraised at right now).

I guess both you and Gergar can go ahead and believe that you're both just much smarter and more disciplined than everyone else because you managed to get a little bit ahead in the rigged game that is this shithole country and not that this shithole country is one giant rigged game fucking all of us over so that a couple thousand people can have more money than God...
Most people don't have much discipline (again, how does that family not have money when bringing in 100k?). Many people think they are entitled to certain things like new cars and whatnot. I have 2 friends in their early to mid 30s that live at home without a housing payment and have money problems. Just how? One of them owes me over $600. Hell, one friend never even paid on his car but didn't care because he is TSA and he parks at a government gated lot at an airport and then parks in a garage at home so it can't get repoed.

I don't even remember the last time I cooked food at home for example and it's not that expensive to eat out (when you just eat once a day outside of occasionally having a $2 soup for lunch at work when there's a good soup). I'm not currently putting anything in a 401k but this company sucks (got an interview Tuesday) so I don't care about creating another 401k honestly, I already have 2 of them from previous jobs. I did put a full 20k into a CD because it's like a free 1k in now about a month (was a 9 month CD at 5%).

I also graduated college at about the same time as you (2007) and my first job was an AV Tech at a hotel in Chicago and that was pure luxury expenses for a company (it cost like $700/day to use our projector for presentations) so I got laid off obviously with the financial crisis. Got a crappy job afterward and the contacts I met there got me a pretty decent job after getting fired there (though under 40k, and unemployed for like 2 years). Once you get a few years experience in a field, it's not that difficult to switch jobs but getting that 1st job is rough (it's entry level but they want 2-3 years experience?!).
 

Agema

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Are there people who are just shit with money?
Undoubtedly there are. Some of them are well paid - I have a relative who with his partner has a household income at least twice the national average, and yet they've got no savings and occasionally run out of money before the end of the month and the next salary installment.

Plenty of people living hand-to-mouth could probably save small sums if they led an entirely no-frills life. But eating bread and water, buying the cheapest clothes, forgoing all manner entertainment, etc. is a very depressing way to live. (Why bother living, if it's no fun?) I also think that a lot of people who want to patronisingly judge can have very little appreciation of the costs that some people have: like for raising children, having medical conditions, and all other manner of circumstances. I suspect many do save small sums, but those sums are frequently wiped out by adverse events - illnesses, periods of unemployment due to insecure employment, etc.

I'd also note that consumerist society is geared around driving people to buy things, so all those people that might be better off saving are being constantly bombarded with psychological pressure to spend. And that's also without the bullshit tricks - for instance, put a search into Amazon, you're seeing at the top the products that retailers have paid Amazon to show you. The best value for money is a long, long way down the list.
 

tippy2k2

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Plenty of people living hand-to-mouth could probably save small sums if they led an entirely no-frills life. But eating bread and water, buying the cheapest clothes, forgoing all manner entertainment, etc. is a very depressing way to live. (Why bother living, if it's no fun?)
You make good points but this to me is the important one.

I know people who have given up on owning a house and whatnot due to how impossible it feels now to get the money needed (and by the time you get the money needed, the money needed has gone up and you're right back to not having the money needed).

So they go ahead and treat themselves to nice stuff instead of even trying. They feel they're never going to crawl out of the hole Capitalism has put them in so they might as well at least enjoy life now instead of sacrificing everything to try to get enough money to play in a rigged game. As I stated before, I got stupid lucky with my house purchase but if I were trying now, I could see myself giving up that same way. I legit have no idea how anyone young that didn't sneak in at the buzzer like I did is ever going to be able to afford a house that isn't in bumfuck nowhere.
 

Gergar12

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You make good points but this to me is the important one.

I know people who have given up on owning a house and whatnot due to how impossible it feels now to get the money needed (and by the time you get the money needed, the money needed has gone up and you're right back to not having the money needed).

So they go ahead and treat themselves to nice stuff instead of even trying. They feel they're never going to crawl out of the hole Capitalism has put them in so they might as well at least enjoy life now instead of sacrificing everything to try to get enough money to play in a rigged game. As I stated before, I got stupid lucky with my house purchase but if I were trying now, I could see myself giving up that same way. I legit have no idea how anyone young that didn't sneak in at the buzzer like I did is ever going to be able to afford a house that isn't in bumfuck nowhere.
I just told you, and many young people on this forum to buy the S&P500, I have seen literal teenagers do it. If someone whose brain isn't even formed fully can do it, so can many people here and around the US. Yes, houses are nice, and you and others should buy one too, and renting sucks (if you want a family or housing as an investment).

But no, we can't do that because Kamala Harris, who likely buys ETFs, listens to douchebag staffers who think muh capitalism is bad. Tim Waltz is great too, but he has multiple pensions, which is good for him; he deserves them for being a teacher, civil servant, and NCO. I and many other people don't have that.
 
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tippy2k2

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I just told you, and many young people on this forum to buy the S&P500, I have seen literal teenagers do it. If someone whose brain isn't even formed fully can do it, so can many people here and around the US. Yes, houses are nice, and you and others should buy one too, and renting sucks (if you want a family or housing as an investment).

But no, we can't do that because Kamala Harris, who likely buys ETFs, listens to douchebag staffers who think muh capitalism is bad. Tim Waltz is great too, but he has multiple pensions, which is good for him; he deserves them for being a teacher, civil servant, and NCO. I and many other people don't have that.
Yes, you say a lot of silly things like how everyone should just have money to invest in the stock market and skip out on pesky things like basic living expenses and trying to survive. Just have everyone gamble on the markets with all the spare cash we all keep hidden so we can all pretend like we're living paycheck to paycheck.
 

Gergar12

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Yes, you say a lot of silly things like how everyone should just have money to invest in the stock market and skip out on pesky things like basic living expenses and trying to survive. Just have everyone gamble on the markets with all the spare cash we all keep hidden so we can all pretend like we're living paycheck to paycheck.
If investing in index funds is gambling, then everything is gambling. Training in skills is gambling (maybe the skills become outdated, etc.), and Job applications are gambling (opportunity cost of time, you could be networking, etc.). Everything has risks; we don't live in a risk-free world.

You can literally buy fractional shares on Robinhood, so you can buy 1 dollar of an ETF, and get x% of it.
 

tippy2k2

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If investing in index funds is gambling, then everything is gambling. Training in skills is gambling (maybe the skills become outdated, etc.), and Job applications are gambling (opportunity cost of time, you could be networking, etc.). Everything has risks; we don't live in a risk-free world.

You can literally buy fractional shares on Robinhood, so you can buy 1 dollar of an ETF, and get x% of it.
Wow, you make it sound so easy! You sound super knowledgeable about all of this too! You've told us enough times in this thread that everyone should be investing so I have to assume you're following your own advice.

You must have millions of dollars by now! Or at least 100K+, right? It's so freaking easy to just put money into investments after all.
 

Gergar12

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Wow, you make it sound so easy! You sound super knowledgeable about all of this too!

You must have millions of dollars by now! Or at least 100K+, right? It's so freaking easy to just put money into investments after all.
Minus my house, no, I don't. The point of index funds is boring, slow, stable growth, and compound interest, I have around 7K in ETFs due to college debt and medical debt, and not having a full-time job, but most people who can work and do work, work full-time. If I can do it, they have no excuse. Just don't work in retail. Also, I am 27; of course, I am not a millionaire.

I heavily invested in Shiba Inu, which is my equivalent of f you money which will pan out in 10 years or a heavy demand period, but if it doesn't, I won't go homeless.

Edit:


 
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Gergar12

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1724619876103.png

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Yes, the S&P500 investments are gambling. I totally don't invest in them and buy Starbucks coffee.
 

tippy2k2

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Minus my house, no, I don't. The point of index funds is boring, slow, stable growth, and compound interest, I have around 7K in ETFs due to college debt and medical debt, and not having a full-time job, but most people who can work and do work, work full-time. If I can do it, they have no excuse. Just don't work in retail. Also, I am 27; of course, I am not a millionaire.

I heavily invested in Shiba Inu, which is my equivalent of f you money which will pan out in 10 years or a heavy demand period, but if it doesn't, I won't go homeless.

Edit:


I'll give credit where credit is due, that's not a bad number of investing on your part and I can appreciate that you walk the walk, not just talk the talk on this topic. It's not a great number if that's literally all you have (like if you have no 401K or property) but it's something.

That doesn't change a thing about what I say though when it comes to actually investing. People don't have the money to do these investments. Even your amount invested, that's not going to become real actionable money to do something with for decades. It's a great start but most people do not have the funds to do it. Hell, per stats, approx 40-60% of people who are homeless are employed. I'm not sure how much more you're going to be able to sacrifice when you literally have no roof over your head. People with families are not going to hold out on their kids so that one day in 30 years, they'll have a bit of cash that could get wiped away real easy by the next accident or illness or bad luck event. It's way easier to make yourself live a Minimalist Lifestyle of sacrificing anything fun when it's just you that you have to worry about.

You keep trying to convince me that people should be investing and I agree, people should be investing (I've got my 401K as well as savings and my house). But many (I'd even dare say the majority) of Americans CAN'T and no amount of you anecdotally living a Spartan Lifestyle is going to change my thinking that Capitalism isn't a virus in this country that needs some major curing.
 

Gergar12

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I'll give credit where credit is due, that's not a bad number of investing on your part and I can appreciate that you walk the walk, not just talk the talk on this topic. It's not a great number if that's literally all you have (like if you have no 401K or property) but it's something.

That doesn't change a thing about what I say though when it comes to actually investing. People don't have the money to do these investments. Even your amount invested, that's not going to become real actionable money to do something with for decades. It's a great start but most people do not have the funds to do it. Hell, per stats, approx 40-60% of people who are homeless are employed. I'm not sure how much more you're going to be able to sacrifice when you literally have no roof over your head. People with families are not going to hold out on their kids so that one day in 30 years, they'll have a bit of cash that could get wiped away real easy by the next accident or illness or bad luck event. It's way easier to make yourself live a Minimalist Lifestyle of sacrificing anything fun when it's just you that you have to worry about.

You keep trying to convince me that people should be investing and I agree, people should be investing (I've got my 401K as well as savings and my house). But many (I'd even dare say the majority) of Americans CAN'T and no amount of you anecdotally living a Spartan Lifestyle is going to change my thinking that Capitalism isn't a virus in this country that needs some major curing.
Funny you say that, compared to my Asian friends, I spend like a drunk sailor. I turn on the A/C allot more than I should, they don't even when it's 92 degrees outside. I buy stuff at Costco, and they do too but less. I buy snacks like dried mangos, they would rather just buy only fruits, and vegetables. I buy more expensive cooking ingredients, they don't. I rarely but do buy updates to technology that I have, like a computer replacement every 10 years, NVME SSDs, they don't.

But they did study more than me, so they test better than I do and get into better majors and colleges like Stanford, Penn State, and Columbia with BS degrees in computer science, engineering, and biomedical engineering. Their parents also have businesses, mine don't because their parents worked harder than mine. Heating since more people die from cold deaths vs deaths by heat.

But some things we both spend lavishly on (not luxury, just new). Cars so we don't die in an accident, and wait on mechanics. A house, so we have a place to live, and on their part, because those are appreciating in value.

I have had to go into the ER too (medical debt), and I don't have a good insurance plan, I am still paying off my attempted masters, and second bachelor's degree (around 21K due to OSU being an in-state college).

But no one is coming to save me, not socialists from or studying in New York City, Chicago, and Seattle who just want to tax people richer than them. Not the Congress, which hasn't implemented a more cost effective medical system. Not aliens from outer space who, at best, don't exist yet due to Earth being the first planet with advanced intelligence, or worse, the dark forest theory. Not my city government, which keeps giving money to massive data warehouses that hire like 10 people or actual warehouses that only have low wage work. I have only myself and my immediate family to rely on. Destroying capitalism could take decades, and by then i will be dead, and personally, if destroying capitalism means less economic growth and innovation, less LLMs, innovation in space, solar panel companies like Solar City ,and or the US as the sole superpower, I will fight tooth, and nail to stop including voting for a moderate Republican, not that my vote matters I am only one person. In fact, the highest impact i could make right now is voting for or against Senator Sherrod Brown, and for Harris to help deny or allow Harris a Senate proof majority, which I could do if it matters.
 

Gergar12

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Also, an estate tax on wealthy people would be a better policy than this.
 

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Taxes for some of this could include a VAT tax, a smoking tax, an alcohol tax, and my favorite, the carbon tax.
Carbon Tax is a good idea.

Vat tax is not. It can't be a progressive tax by design. It will never achieve anything against inequality.

Taxes on work like income tax can be progressive. But they also tend to make work more expensive, increasing outsourcing and actually hurting jobs.

Taxes on capital gains however will primarily affect people with wealth , those whom you actually want to go after. And they can slow speculation and bubbles.

An estate tax would work similarly

This whole "unrealized gains tax" is a uniquely American thing. In most other countries, companies don't hold stupid amounts of unrealized gains to avoid being taxed. It is a situation that only became a thing because the US tax code has some loopholes here. And whenever there is a huge trend in tax avoidance, it is appropriate to do something about it.

But no one is coming to save me, not socialists from or studying in New York City, Chicago, and Seattle who just want to tax people richer than them. Not the Congress, which hasn't implemented a more cost effective medical system.
Coming from a country with a very robust social security system, with free university education no one fearing medical debt, i have to say
1) it is generally left wing policy that does implement stuff like that
2) It has to be paid and implementing taxes etc. to pay for that are also generally left wing policies.

I mean, i would never want to live in the US. Even if i could earn double the pay there and would have less taxes. I have job security, have never to worry about medical bills, have good working conditions and even 30 days vacation a year, would even if i were to quit on my own get unemployment benefits for a year that are high enough that i would not have to change my lifestyle, will get state based pension when i am old and would even get partially paid care of i needed. Public transport is good enough that i don't need a car. I am in my mid 40s and never owned a car in my life. Food safety is superior as are safety standards in general. My life expectancy is higher (not least because of all the safety standards and the good medical system). I also have a PhD and never had student debt.
Sure, my country is not a superpower. But who cares ?
Sure, i also have to give away more from my paycheck to the government. But i am gladly doing so because i like what we all get in return.



That does not mean that every left wing economic or tax idea is automatically a good idea. It is difficult to make good laws.
 
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tstorm823

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This whole "unrealized gains tax" is a uniquely American thing. In most other countries, companies don't hold stupid amounts of unrealized gains to avoid being taxed. It is a situation that only became a thing because the US tax code has some loopholes here. And whenever there is a huge trend in tax avoidance, it is appropriate to do something about it.
Do you know what unrealized gains are? It is when the value of something you own but aren't selling increases. It's not in any way uniquely American, it is inherent to any system where you can buy things. It has nothing to do with tax codes or loopholes.
 

Satinavian

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Do you know what unrealized gains are? It is when the value of something you own but aren't selling increases. It's not in any way uniquely American, it is inherent to any system where you can buy things. It has nothing to do with tax codes or loopholes.
Isn't that also related to the ability of US firms to store their profits oversea and only pay tax when they bring them back ? That is uniquely American.
 

tstorm823

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Isn't that also related to the ability of US firms to store their profits oversea and only pay tax when they bring them back ? That is uniquely American.
Only if they aren't paying themselves, but that's not terribly different than here. If a company reinvests it's revenue instead of paying out shareholders, the shareholders aren't making anything to tax. If a US citizen is making money in foreign countries, that income is still taxed, if it's income, and there are actually additional taxes when you repatriate money from overseas businesses that you can avoid paying by keeping the money in the business overseas, but then you can't spend the money on yourself n the US.