The Matrix Trilogy

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Scrustle

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So over these past few days I've re-watched one of my favourite film series. The Matrix trilogy. The last time I saw them (years ago) I really liked them, but some of it went over my head. I never really understood all the hate for the sequels though. At the time I enjoyed them all around the same amount. After watching them again I feel more capable to talk about them, so I thought I might as well start up a conversation.

I've often heard people criticize the 2 sequel films for focusing too much on action and the "real" world instead of the world of The Matrix, while the first film was a lot more thought provoking. I can see why people would make these criticisms, but I don't think they are entirely true.

The first film in the series was the most concept heavy, but it wasn't the only one to deal a lot in these kind of themes. A lot of the philosophical themes in the first film are there to set the scene for the series and explain the world. They did deal with them in some depth but that wasn't the whole point of the film. It's a sci-fi action film, not a lecture. The Cartesian concepts of reality and our experience of it are mostly a way to explain how The Matrix works, and the whole series is building up a world and a story based on the idea that it is all real, instead of dealing with the question of "what if". It takes that as a starting point instead of it being the message behind the film.

Reloaded does still have a lot of philosophical themes in it, but instead of focusing on the question of reality is focuses on the idea of free will. This is talked about a little in the first film but in the second it becomes the focus of the more thoughtful dialogue. The Oracle, The Merovingian, and The Architect all talk about it at length. It examines the difference (or lack thereof) between humanity and the machines, and adds extra depth to the idea of The Matrix itself and the purpose of the characters in the film. People often say about this film that it focuses too much time on the "real world", and I agree to some extent. But I don't believe the problem is with where the story takes place, but what happens there. The events in The Matrix are much more interesting because that is where all the characters who have interesting dialogue happen to reside. There's also the potential for better action scenes in The Matrix because of the supernatural powers granted to characters in there. The overall run time of the film doesn't actually spend that much time away from The Matrix, but when it does it fails to deliver. Most of the events that happen are political. It's characters discussing how to defend themselves from the impending attack on Zion. Although this is a crucial part of the plot it's far less interesting than the other high concepts and fantastical action being thrown about.

There are some parts of the real world scenes that could have been much more interesting to give more focus too instead, but aren't given the time they should have had. For example they show the relationship between Link and his wife. It's clearly an attempt to show more relatable and human aspect to this part of the world, but we aren't really given enough time for it to work. But perhaps the biggest missed opportunity is with Neo's experience with being treated as a messiah figure and how he deals with it. This is given hardly any attention at all, and is only shown very briefly. This could have added a whole lot to the film if it got the attention it deserved, but was instead ignored in favour of political talks and defence plans. But I think overall the film is still fantastic. It may have some bigger flaws than the first, but the action sequences and the cinematography are better.

The third film however, drops the ball quite badly. It's not necessarily a bad film, it just doesn't include a lot of what made the first 2 films so interesting. This is kind of understandable since the plot of the film doesn't really require any more investigation in to the nature of The Matrix and is more of just a conclusion to the story. It doesn't need to explain any more esoteric topics, since everything that needed to be explained already has been. The point of the film is just to show resolution to the conflict. Although I think this is kind of sad, since the philosophical aspect of the series is one of the biggest things that makes it stand out, it's not necessarily a bad thing for the overall effectiveness of the narrative. The problem is, it doesn't do a great job of concluding the series. The film focuses a huge amount of attention on the real world. The events taking place here aren't quite as tedious as in Reloaded, but it's still not as interesting as events in The Matrix (throughout the whole series at least). Since the main focus of the film is the attack on Zion it shows a lot of action sequences and some relatively impressive cinematography instead of the boring talking which took up most of the real world events of the last film. But there's nothing really quite as compelling about it as the events in The Matrix. Again, it lacks the interesting dialogue and is mostly focusing on action set pieces that aren't really relevant to the overall plot.

The events in The Matrix don't really do much to compensate for this either. The film hardly spends any time there and the events that happen there are among the worst in that setting through the whole series. There aren't any compelling conversations and the fight sequences are short and less ambitious. Even the big fight at the end between Neo and Smith feels stunted. There are some very impressive shots in the fight, but it doesn't really feel like it was what the whole series should have been building up too. Other fights in Reloaded felt a lot better paced and exciting. It also ends far too quickly and abruptly. Neither look like they have fought to their fullest capability but suddenly Neo just decided he's going to let himself die. Obviously, this is what was supposed to happen but it didn't feel momentous, it felt like kind of a cop out. Where's the ultimate battle and the epic crescendo they seemed to be building to?

The epilogue of the film left huge plot holes too. The machines apparently give "peace" to the humans because of Neo's actions in saving The Matrix, but it's never shown what the conditions for this peace are. The humans are not all freed from The Matrix and there seems to be no reason why the machines would keep their truce. It's specified that The Matrix still exists and the machines still keep humans captive. Only those who choose to leave The Matrix actually got freedom. But the whole reason for the war was that the machines were using the humans. They wanted to destroy the machines so they could free everyone, or at least free all the humans thus destroying the machines. They failed at that, yet there is peace? And how exactly were people allowed to exit The Matrix? Did the machines just tell everyone that they were in it and give them the chance to leave? If they did that then what about the people who stayed? Did they just wipe their memory and put them back to being slaves, or were they allowed to continue in the knowledge that their whole life isn't real? Why would the machines even honour the agreement at all after they got what they wanted? The events of the film do nothing to solve the conflict between the humans and the machines. All that happens is that Neo stops Smith from taking over the real world. It's a complete mess. The only saving grace of the film is it's few action sequences, that are fun to watch, but are mostly inferior to other action scenes in the previous films.

So yeah, those are my thoughts. I really didn't expect it to come to this much text, but it just happened to come to that as I was writing it. I just hope that it doesn't turn out I'm a decade late to the conversation.
 

StriderShinryu

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I love the entire trilogy, warts and all.

I think the best way to view Revoltions is to not actually view it as it's own movie at all. Originally, Reloaded and Revolutions were intended to be a single piece. When taken as that, the lack of The Matrix in Rev doesn't feel as notable given how much of Reloaded takes place there. It really balances out nicely.
 

aba1

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I agree with what Strider said above me you can really tell that Revolutions and Reloaded so not stand on there own all that well. I agree with most of what OP stated however I felt disappointed with all the caked on CG particularly in Reloaded especially with them having some of the best wirework I have ever seen in the original which just feels so much more fluent. The CG at parts of the sequels is just so caked on it really takes you out of the movie. Over all I loved the movies I agree with everyone the first outshines the sequels by a large margin but the sequels I always liked and felt got to much flack but it is partially because they were meant to be viewed together and partially because they have to compare to the original which is one of the best films of all time.
 

Scrustle

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StriderShinryu said:
I love the entire trilogy, warts and all.

I think the best way to view Revoltions is to not actually view it as it's own movie at all. Originally, Reloaded and Revolutions were intended to be a single piece. When taken as that, the lack of The Matrix in Rev doesn't feel as notable given how much of Reloaded takes place there. It really balances out nicely.
I didn't know they were supposed to be one movie but I always thought of them as part of the same story. They're supposed to be a lot of time between the first two films, but no time at all between the second two. They were released within a few months of each other too, weren't they?

But still it doesn't change the fact that Reloaded is vastly superior.
 

Otaku World Order

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Outside of the stupid Dragonball fight between Smith and Neo and the poorly constructed battle for Zion, there's a major issue in Revelations that's never explained. Why do Neo's Matrix powers suddenly work in the real world?

At the end of Reloaded, Neo K.O.s out the Sentinels and then passes out. At the time, I thought this meant that the "real world" wasn't real at all but another layer of the Matrix designed to fool the humans into thinking they escaped. But if it really is the real world, how does Neo have powers that affect the machines?

Oh, and there was also Trinity's fifty-three minute death speech which caused me to break into sarcastic laughter in the theater.
 

StriderShinryu

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Scrustle said:
StriderShinryu said:
I love the entire trilogy, warts and all.

I think the best way to view Revoltions is to not actually view it as it's own movie at all. Originally, Reloaded and Revolutions were intended to be a single piece. When taken as that, the lack of The Matrix in Rev doesn't feel as notable given how much of Reloaded takes place there. It really balances out nicely.
I didn't know they were supposed to be one movie but I always thought of them as part of the same story. They're supposed to be a lot of time between the first two films, but no time at all between the second two. They were released within a few months of each other too, weren't they?

But still it doesn't change the fact that Reloaded is vastly superior.
Yeah, they were filmed at the same time and released.. I want to say in July and then November of the same year. I may be off on the months, but it was 6 months between releases at most.
 

Scrustle

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Otaku World Order said:
Outside of the stupid Dragonball fight between Smith and Neo and the poorly constructed battle for Zion, there's a major issue in Revelations that's never explained. Why do Neo's Matrix powers suddenly work in the real world?

At the end of Reloaded, Neo K.O.s out the Sentinels and then passes out. At the time, I thought this meant that the "real world" wasn't real at all but another layer of the Matrix designed to fool the humans into thinking they escaped. But if it really is the real world, how does Neo have powers that affect the machines?

Oh, and there was also Trinity's fifty-three minute death speech which caused me to break into sarcastic laughter in the theater.
I actually kind of enjoyed the Dragonball fight. In fact I felt like there should have been more of it. That should have been the show of the ultimate power of the One. I don't think that the battle for Zion was badly constructed, just that it shouldn't have been such a big focus. Like, did we really need to spend so much time seeing Z and that random woman taking out the drills? There was a lot of time where nothing happened that really meant a whole deal. it was just blowing stuff up. I liked a lot of the shots of the Sentinels swarming around and the bullets flying everywhere, but it took up way too much of the run time.

And although I guess Neo's powers coming over in to the real world wasn't explained as much as it should have been it didn't really bother me much. Since Smith was able to move in to the real world too and Neo seems to have such power over The Matrix he can even manipulate the systems within the machines themselves. I guess I just accepted it as part of the deus ex machina that the One was supposed to be.

But I do remember another plot point that didn't make sense to me. Why did Zion need a ship to set off an EMP blast in the area? They know that an EMP is the most effective weapon against the machines and that Zion clearly has a lot of defences that it would need if it was the last human city. So why doesn't the city have an EMP device which they are able to equip to every single ship that they have? Yes, an EMP blast would also shut down all the electronic systems in Zion, but it also shuts down all the systems in the ships, yet they are allowed to have them. They just turn everything off first. It seems completely stupid that they would not have an EMP device that was meant as a last resort. If there was ever a time that it should have been used despite the cost, it would have been then.
 

Esotera

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Eh, the last two films are fairly decent when they stand by themselves, but they're just nothing like the original, so people are right to be annoyed by them. They also don't make that much sense.

The first Matrix was hugely influential, and very well done. The last two didn't really have the same depth, and it showed.
 

Thaluikhain

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My problem with the later movies is that a lot of their philosophy is complete garbage. You have lines that sound nice when delivered by Hugo Weaving, but that's because he's Hugo Weaving. The writers are trying to make themselves look very deep and meaningful without any idea what they are doing. It also doesn't help that nobody apart from Hugo Weaving is acting.

Not explaining Neo's sudden real world powers is particularly annoying as it was a big part of the cliffhanger ending to the 2nd movie. On its own, it'd be bad, mind.

A lot of the action scenes were done very badly as well. Lots of Hugo Weavings attacking Keanu Reeves was a good idea, only they got less and less effective as their numbers increased, the fight scene goes on for ages, and Neo gets bored and flies away at the end.

Likewise, the car chase with the two ghost twins. Started off reasonably well, went on too long and ends with the ghost twins not bothering to use tneir "phase out and not die" powers for no good reason.
 

Relish in Chaos

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I generally disliked all the poor dialogue, confusing technobabble (especially that retarded scene with the Architect), unlikeable or flat-out bland characters, and Trinity (whose character had practically been reduced to almost one-dimensional "STFU and stop fawning over Neo, *****" status) as a love interest that seems to get shoved into every damn film, regardless of whether or not it fits or is remotely relevant.

I think, in the third film, there was a whole long, mundane sequence where the minor characters were fighting those weird tentacle robots or whatever, and it seemed as if the film had completely forgotten about what a blinded Neo and Trinity were doing in the ship. And then an anti-climactic final battle between Neo and Agent Smith.

Overall, the sequels feel more superficial and less deep than the original, which felt so much more tightly constructed and compelling.
 

Casual Shinji

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The short answer is that the first Matrix had an arc, and the sequels didn't.

Neo might not have had much of a personality in the first movie, but he did have a definate arc, going from lowly confused hacker to fucking god of the digital realm. In the sequels he does absolutely nothing but mumble a bit of nonsense and fly around. Despite being god of the Matrix and presumably having the ability to "change whatever he sees; to remake the Matrix as he sees fit" we don't see him do anything of the sort. Apartly his godly power consisted solely of flying around really fast. This all most likely stems for the fact that Larry and Andy didn't know how to write Jesus Neo into the sequels without his godly powers breaking the whole fucking structure of the movies, so they decided to simply make him Superman instead of God.

This is the most glaring example of the sequels not working.

Then apparantly Tank, the lovable operator from movie one dies in between films and is replaced by some annoying fish-headed dude with dreads and a stupid wife whom I don't give a shit about. I'm sorry, but you can't just throw that in there in place of a character I already knew and loved, and then expect me to quietly roll with it.

Zion is way overexposed and probably shouldn't even have been seen. And if you are going to show it, don't make it come across as carefree and open as it is. The sequels made it look like any ship could drop by Zion anytime they felt like it, which totally contradicts Cypher's motivation to escape reality in the first film. The reason his betrayal was somewhat understandable, was because he couldn't take living in this horrible reality anymore; Being scared, cold, confined to a small ship for presumably years on end, eating nutrient sludge, with little chance they can even win against the machines. And then we have Zion presented as a wide open city were people can evidently grow and produce a meriad of different foods, has dozens upon dozens of giant machine gun wielding mechs (despite Trinity clearly stating that EMP is the only weapon they have against the machines), and even fucking rave parties. Regarding that Cypher could've simply asked Morpheus to drop him off at the lesbian rave cave and everyone would've been happier let alone alive.

Oh, and then the Oracle start talking and vampires, werewolves, and aliens... WHAT?
 

CODE-D

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I liked all three and if you didnt your just complaining. I actually like the first one the least because it takes forever to get started.
 

Scrustle

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Casual Shinji said:
snip

Oh, and then the Oracle start talking and vampires, werewolves, and aliens... WHAT?
I never really thought about the Cypher thing. I guess you could still say The Matrix is better than Zion if he got what he asked for when he got plugged back in (be famous, rich and important), but you still point out a lot of continuity problems.

But the vampires and werewolves thing makes perfect sense. It's when things in The Matrix go wrong and it causes weird shit to happen. When people see that stuff they don't understand it and say it's monsters and stuff. Doesn't really mean anything in the overall plot since all the weird powers of the bad guys aren't because of glitches, it's because they are exiled programs who were created with powers for some reason.
 

Casual Shinji

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Scrustle said:
Casual Shinji said:
snip

Oh, and then the Oracle start talking and vampires, werewolves, and aliens... WHAT?
I never really thought about the Cypher thing. I guess you could still say The Matrix is better than Zion if he got what he asked for when he got plugged back in (be famous, rich and important), but you still point out a lot of continuity problems.

But the vampires and werewolves thing makes perfect sense. It's when things in The Matrix go wrong and it causes weird shit to happen. When people see that stuff they don't understand it and say it's monsters and stuff. Doesn't really mean anything in the overall plot since all the weird powers of the bad guys aren't because of glitches, it's because they are exiled programs who were created with powers for some reason.
Yeah, but the Oracle talks about it like these are present day folklore. UFO's maybe, but when was the last time you heard people talk about vampires and werewolves in the context that they may exist because of whatever evidence? You know how the first Matrix created a little bridge between a glitch in the system and deja vu; An experience we are all very familiar with? It tries to pull the same thing in the sequel, but this time swapping deja vu for vampires, werewolves, and aliens. But these tales of vampires, werewolves, and aliens aren't common at all in the real world i.e. our world to be used effectively as a smoke screen for the system glitching out.

If she would've said, "Neo, beings akin to what you would classify as vampires or werewolves are appearing all over the Matrix because of renegade programs.", I wouldn't have had that big a problem with it. It would've been stupid, but whatever. But what she really says is, "Every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves, or aliens is a program not doing what supposed to." What stories? I've heard plenty of stories about shoes mysteriously disappearing or about having the feeling like you're being watched, but never have I heard folktales or urban myths about vampires and werewolves.

But I'm spending way too much attention on this dumb plotpoint as it is.
 

Scrustle

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Casual Shinji said:
Scrustle said:
Casual Shinji said:
snip

Oh, and then the Oracle start talking and vampires, werewolves, and aliens... WHAT?
snip
snip
I still hear people talking about ghosts. Vampires and werewolves don't get talked about much in modern times, but there's certainly a lot of ghost stories going around. And I don't think it's specifically supposed to refer only to those creatures, but just any story people make up for stuff they can't understand, like bigfoot etc.

And discussing irrelevant plot details is super cereal business!
 

Sean Hollyman

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I don't see why they'd want the humans to be freed anyway, I mean the real world is kinda shitty, and it wasn't as if the Machines were hurting them while in the Matrix..