The Motivations of Death
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
It was, quite literally, the first thing they say in the game. The first... Its part of the intro.Two-A said:
I agree with LazyAza. Sometimes Yatzhee's critics seems like he is not paying attention or just "forgetting" stuff to pull his point across...
I first noticed it during Uncharted, when his complains were:
- Uncharted 1: You are a white guy fighting Latinos and Black pirates. Obviously made by white supremacists.
- Uncharted 2: You are a white guy fighting Asians and Russians. Obviously made by racists.
- Uncharted 3: You are a white guy fighting British snobs. A great example of racism.
What? Last I check, all the members of the British secret society were Caucasians, and being british is not considered as a racist target. It looks like a pretty nitpicky (and factually wrong) distinction to make just to use a recurring joke
- Uncharted 2: You are a white guy fighting Asians and Russians. Obviously made by racists.
- Uncharted 3: You are a white guy fighting British snobs. A great example of racism.
What? Last I check, all the members of the British secret society were Caucasians, and being british is not considered as a racist target. It looks like a pretty nitpicky (and factually wrong) distinction to make just to use a recurring joke
How about a game where you can play as Death from Discworld? Esp. if you had Ian Richardson as the voice of Death.
I like how they touched on Drakes Motivation in Uncharted 3 only to completely abandon it latter on. The problem with giving characters Motivation in games, is in order to give a character motivation it would require writing a good story to go along with it.
I feel motivation gets lost in a lot of games where your just moving set character to cut scene to cut scene with no interactive choices. They don't even have to be moral choices like in Infamous 2 or Bioshock just something that says "here I am." Like being able to take that cool chick with the red jacket with you. instead of being forced to drag that whiny reporter chick with you for a 3rd time in Uncharted 3. Writers seem to be more focused on motivation and over all story telling when there's multiple paths to consider.
I feel motivation gets lost in a lot of games where your just moving set character to cut scene to cut scene with no interactive choices. They don't even have to be moral choices like in Infamous 2 or Bioshock just something that says "here I am." Like being able to take that cool chick with the red jacket with you. instead of being forced to drag that whiny reporter chick with you for a 3rd time in Uncharted 3. Writers seem to be more focused on motivation and over all story telling when there's multiple paths to consider.
Gotta say, Yahtzee, I find it a bit odd that I didn't even play the first Darksiders game and yet I seem to have a better handle on the story than you do.
Indeed, in the Darksider universe, the Horsemen are not the living embodiments of their namesakes. Turns out they're just 4 warriors of a warrior-race that was creating havok across the cosmos. These 4 saw the destruction they had wrought with their brethren and decided that someone had to put a stop to it. So in exchange for ridiculous amounts of power, they sign up with the Cosmic Bureaucracy to serve The Balance and try to maintain said balance across the various planes of existence. As such, they essentially become the strong-arm enforcers for the Bureaucracy, going around punishing those that break the rules of the balance, including a cease-fire with regards to the human realm. Evidently a pact was formed between Heaven and Hell as arbitrated by the Bureaucracy stating that only once the 7th seal has been broken could the two oposing armies meet on Earth and duke it out. However War was tricked into starting things early which lands him in the comsic brig.
So now we come to Death. His story apparently takes place during War's imprisonment at the beginning of the first game. As for who Death is and what are his powers, yes, he's just a guy that's really good at killing things - just like his mates - however he does have the powers of the Reaper. What you apparently missed, however, was that just like War before him: Death is not riding with the authority of the Bureaucracy behind him. As such, his power and authority is severely diminished. This explains why you can't fly around in Reaper Form the entire game: his powers are still sealed away (presumably in the 7th Seal, to be specific). The King of the Dead even tells you this flat out: "You do not ride with The Council's authority. Until you do, you are beneath me." This implies that Death should hold rank over the vast majority of the characters in the game, but since he's acting on his own, he is denied that authority. This leaves him as just being a guy who's very good at killing...who can also tap his deeper power by transforming into the Reaper for short bits at a time.
As for motivation, he believes (and rightfully so, from what I've been told by friends that have played the first game) that his brother is indeed innocent. That War was "The eldest and most noble of the Horsemen, and that he would never have done what he did on purpose." So yeah, you can chalk it up to blind loyalty to his brother. But as we also learn, the 4 are the last survivors of the race that they came from, can you really begrudge them a bit of loyalty towards one another? One of my favorite parts of the game was how through Death's dialogue they actually seem to be mocking traditional adventure/RPG quests. "You must go and open the lava gates so we can light our forge!" is met with Death responding by essentially saying "I'm Death, why the fuck should I do you a favor?" Death doesn't care about the concerns of the quest givers in the game, he just wants to get his own personal quest done and over with. He feels that he should have the authority to demand that the King of the Dead help him with no questions asked, only to once again be reminded that he's riding without the true authority that backs up his power.
Indeed, in the Darksider universe, the Horsemen are not the living embodiments of their namesakes. Turns out they're just 4 warriors of a warrior-race that was creating havok across the cosmos. These 4 saw the destruction they had wrought with their brethren and decided that someone had to put a stop to it. So in exchange for ridiculous amounts of power, they sign up with the Cosmic Bureaucracy to serve The Balance and try to maintain said balance across the various planes of existence. As such, they essentially become the strong-arm enforcers for the Bureaucracy, going around punishing those that break the rules of the balance, including a cease-fire with regards to the human realm. Evidently a pact was formed between Heaven and Hell as arbitrated by the Bureaucracy stating that only once the 7th seal has been broken could the two oposing armies meet on Earth and duke it out. However War was tricked into starting things early which lands him in the comsic brig.
So now we come to Death. His story apparently takes place during War's imprisonment at the beginning of the first game. As for who Death is and what are his powers, yes, he's just a guy that's really good at killing things - just like his mates - however he does have the powers of the Reaper. What you apparently missed, however, was that just like War before him: Death is not riding with the authority of the Bureaucracy behind him. As such, his power and authority is severely diminished. This explains why you can't fly around in Reaper Form the entire game: his powers are still sealed away (presumably in the 7th Seal, to be specific). The King of the Dead even tells you this flat out: "You do not ride with The Council's authority. Until you do, you are beneath me." This implies that Death should hold rank over the vast majority of the characters in the game, but since he's acting on his own, he is denied that authority. This leaves him as just being a guy who's very good at killing...who can also tap his deeper power by transforming into the Reaper for short bits at a time.
As for motivation, he believes (and rightfully so, from what I've been told by friends that have played the first game) that his brother is indeed innocent. That War was "The eldest and most noble of the Horsemen, and that he would never have done what he did on purpose." So yeah, you can chalk it up to blind loyalty to his brother. But as we also learn, the 4 are the last survivors of the race that they came from, can you really begrudge them a bit of loyalty towards one another? One of my favorite parts of the game was how through Death's dialogue they actually seem to be mocking traditional adventure/RPG quests. "You must go and open the lava gates so we can light our forge!" is met with Death responding by essentially saying "I'm Death, why the fuck should I do you a favor?" Death doesn't care about the concerns of the quest givers in the game, he just wants to get his own personal quest done and over with. He feels that he should have the authority to demand that the King of the Dead help him with no questions asked, only to once again be reminded that he's riding without the true authority that backs up his power.
The problem is, Yahtzee isn't really all that interested in making games, just coming up with ideas for them. And while there are people who make a decent living doing that (Peter Molyneux, Suda51, Tim Schafer), they all actually have established careers in the industry. And the day Yahtzee gives up his sweet gig as a critic to step onto the bottom rung at a game studio is the day ice cream starts raining down from the sky. (I'm pretty sure he said once that Valve is the only AAA studio he would ever deign to work for, and they turned down his application.)gardian06 said:
The problem is less that he's the only person with decent game ideas; it's that the hundreds of other people with neat ideas like these, including the ones who work in the industry already, are no more empowered to make their ideas a reality than he is. The industry simply does not value fresh new ideas for the most part. Even Valve isn't going to call him up and say "Hey, we want to turn your pitch into a game"; they're too busy making unnecessary sequels and buying out mod teams who have finished products to show for their work.
Hmm, maybe someone should put together a mod team to produce one of Yahtzee's game ideas. That's probably the only way it could happen at this point.
The problem is that after the first Darksiders became a sleeper hit, you can not review the franchise based on the games alone, and assumptions made about the back story. DSII constantly makes references to the handful of comics that were released between the two games.
I think it's actually part of the flavor of Darksiders series, that you play a demigod who you normally wouldn't relate to, and if you do it makes for some interesting experience.
I don't really want to play as Death that has human motivations.
I wonder if they get to complete the story. Looks like they need 2 more games explaining what 2 other horsemen were doing at the time of DS1 and 2 events. And then maybe final 5th game where you somehow get to play all 4?
I don't really want to play as Death that has human motivations.
I wonder if they get to complete the story. Looks like they need 2 more games explaining what 2 other horsemen were doing at the time of DS1 and 2 events. And then maybe final 5th game where you somehow get to play all 4?
For that concept, the only process not explained would be gameplay progression. How would one encounter change from the next. Also if killing enemies twice would be pretty annoying so some way to keep the audience from making it seem samy must be implemented.
Am I the only person that thinks that Death kinda looks like Raziel from Soul Reaver?
I am?
okay..
I am?
okay..
My thought on a game about death would be a supernatural Dinner Dash. People are dying and you have to show up and convince them to cross over, and you choose how you'll appear to them, how you'll approach them etc.
Oh come on. The AAA game industry is the only thing that exists now? Yahtzee has released quite a few games independently, and while he's no Edmund McMillan, he's a lot better than most of the overpriced stuff that you're talking about, simply because he has room to experiment.Steve the Pocket said:
That introduction feels rather familiar...
In Mogworld, the main character sort of stumbles onto his adventure by dying.
In Poacher, the main character stumbles across a ghost woman who then gets him deep into adventure.
Here, the main character, through some "unfortunate twist of fate", gets into his own adventure.
I'm sensing a recurring pattern here.
In Mogworld, the main character sort of stumbles onto his adventure by dying.
In Poacher, the main character stumbles across a ghost woman who then gets him deep into adventure.
Here, the main character, through some "unfortunate twist of fate", gets into his own adventure.
I'm sensing a recurring pattern here.
It's not even that the game has a bad concept. I could probably keep most of it around.
For example:
You are death, war has killed all humans, so you want to re-set everything.
I propose a God of War 3 ripoff: Within the first epic boss fight you do exactly that: Everyone is alive again.
This way you can see all the abilities your hero will eventually gain, motivating you to play all sidequests to unlock everything.
Then some bureaucrat knocks you on your ass, demotes you - which loses you all your mojo - and demands you do the clean-up properly.
Because earth has turned into a place where everyone all of a sudden has insight into the fabric of death, so voodoo priests, ghost conjurers and all that stuff spring up all over the place.
This leads to a game of two layers: You must reap the souls of the justly deceased in a sort of Batman's detective vision. This build up energy that you can then, switching to reality, trade in for fun combos and finishing moves which you have to perform on the undead.
You can also build in a feature where in both layers you have souls that you should not touch:
If you slay a red-coloured soul in the death-o-vision you actually create an undead being. Changing colors, changing monsters.
For killing humans in reality you can lose some form of points, or every human that you kill revives instantly (because you're Death and all) but he takes a small portion of your HP bar with him.
The story arch could pretty much be: Defeat a certain amount of monsters that have infested reality, bring in more evidence that War was innocent (because he is still being punished for the Apocalypse, even if you restore all humans) and further the overall plot about why the fuck the apocalypse happened pre-maturely and who had his finger on the big red button.
Took me 10 minutes to come up with this shit.
For example:
You are death, war has killed all humans, so you want to re-set everything.
I propose a God of War 3 ripoff: Within the first epic boss fight you do exactly that: Everyone is alive again.
This way you can see all the abilities your hero will eventually gain, motivating you to play all sidequests to unlock everything.
Then some bureaucrat knocks you on your ass, demotes you - which loses you all your mojo - and demands you do the clean-up properly.
Because earth has turned into a place where everyone all of a sudden has insight into the fabric of death, so voodoo priests, ghost conjurers and all that stuff spring up all over the place.
This leads to a game of two layers: You must reap the souls of the justly deceased in a sort of Batman's detective vision. This build up energy that you can then, switching to reality, trade in for fun combos and finishing moves which you have to perform on the undead.
You can also build in a feature where in both layers you have souls that you should not touch:
If you slay a red-coloured soul in the death-o-vision you actually create an undead being. Changing colors, changing monsters.
For killing humans in reality you can lose some form of points, or every human that you kill revives instantly (because you're Death and all) but he takes a small portion of your HP bar with him.
The story arch could pretty much be: Defeat a certain amount of monsters that have infested reality, bring in more evidence that War was innocent (because he is still being punished for the Apocalypse, even if you restore all humans) and further the overall plot about why the fuck the apocalypse happened pre-maturely and who had his finger on the big red button.
Took me 10 minutes to come up with this shit.
Silly Yahtzee! You should know better by now!
If you pitched an idea like this to any "sensible" publisher, they'd just get horrified by the sheer astonishing brilliance and uniqueness of your ideas and start hyperventilating into a paper bag until you agreed to make it into a first-person shooter with regenerating health and have the protagonist decked-out in a suit of hypermasculine powered armor. And don't forget the Xbox LIVE multiplayer!
So yeah, I guess it's up to the indie devs.
If you pitched an idea like this to any "sensible" publisher, they'd just get horrified by the sheer astonishing brilliance and uniqueness of your ideas and start hyperventilating into a paper bag until you agreed to make it into a first-person shooter with regenerating health and have the protagonist decked-out in a suit of hypermasculine powered armor. And don't forget the Xbox LIVE multiplayer!
So yeah, I guess it's up to the indie devs.
Indeed it was, it is very central to the entire games story, it wasn't just Deaths backstory but the core narrative of him having to deal with the physical embodiment of Corruption. He initially doesn't care for helping the Makers deal with Corruption in their world (where you spend the first half of the game) but then he learns that the Corruption was caused by the very actions he regrets and feels guilty for in the past where he was tasked with killing his own people.Two-A said:
His motivation is literally a glowing scar on his upper right torso as the shattered shards of a crystal that held the cursed souls of his slain bretheran is embedded in to his skin at the beginning of the game. At the very end when you finally defeat Corruption Death has to make a difficult choice in order to finally deal with his guilt and rescue humanity, ultimately having to make a choice he really didn't want to but did.