The Necromancer is a better villain than Sauron (Spoiler warning)

thejboy88

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Okay, for those who have actually seen both the Lord of the Rings movies and the more recent Hobbit films, you will know by now that the Necromancer of Dol Guldur is, in fact, Sauron himself. I only differentiated between them in the title to avoid spoiling things for those who haven't seen the films yet. But yeah, as the title said, I believe that Sauron's portrayal in the recent Hobbit films actually makes him a better antagonist than what he was shown to be in the LOTR films ten years ago.

Firstly, there's the matter of interaction. In the Hobbit films, he actually interacts with people, both on his side and against his enemies. In LOTR his only real interaction with anyone were a few vague lines here and there, including his famous "I see you" moment with Frodo. But in the prequels, he's there, giving orders to his troops, even confronting Gandalf. In LOTR he always let others do his dirty work, so for me, it's great to actually see that he can get his hands (or lack thereof in this case) dirty when it comes to dealing with his enemies. And a villain that actually gets involved with these matters is much more effective than some faraway threat that never seems to do anything but look around and be menacing.

Then there's the matter of scale. In the LOTR, Sauron is most definitely at the height of his power. He has a mountain-sized fortress, seemingly endless armies of orcs and other creatures, and the forces of good are constantly on the defensive, making him seem like an unstoppable force of nature. But in the prequels, he's working on a much smaller scale. His headquarters is smaller, his forces are smaller, and he's not the big omnipotent force he was shown to be in LOTR. Because of this, he's often forced to work in the shadows, outright hiding from his enemies and doing things in a much more cunning way. For whatever reason, this makes him seem like a far deadlier threat to me than the "massive-army-invincible-overlord" threat he posed in the first trilogy.

So yeah, that's my take on the whole thing. Disagree or discuss what I've said if you like. I'd be interested to hear your own views on this.
 

FalloutJack

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Strictly speaking, Sauron only did that because his moves required stealth and trickery, manipulation and above all secrecy. Ergo, "Hello I am the Necromancer of Dol Guldur and totally not Sauron, your most-hated nemesis.". If I might step into the mythical boots of the man for a moment, the chief reason that he no longer hides himself by the LOTR movies is that his hold is very secure and now far too great in power to hold secret that well. Thus, it turns into "Yes, it was me all along, but I have divided Rohan and Gondor, corrupted your chief wizard, conquered Moria and other territories, and have basically ALL the orcs right now.". At that point, it is too vast an advantage to hide, yet too great a force to be so concerned for the most part. Short of regaining the Ring, he was all set to win.
 

Tom_green_day

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I thought the Necromancer stuff seemed shoved in to the Hobbit 2 to make an unbearably long film even more long. There was the special effects bit where it kept zooming into the eye and another eye appeared and kept zooming in and I thought 'what the fuck am I watching? This isn't a huge blockbuster!'
 

Albino Boo

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Sauron use the necromancer because he not yet strong enough to take on the white council as can been seen by the fact that white council drive him out of Dol Guldur by direct confrontation.
 

Eamar

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FalloutJack said:
Strictly speaking, Sauron only did that because his moves required stealth and trickery, manipulation and above all secrecy. Ergo, "Hello I am the Necromancer of Dol Guldur and totally not Sauron, your most-hated nemesis.". If I might step into the mythical boots of the man for a moment, the chief reason that he no longer hides himself by the LOTR movies is that his hold is very secure and now far too great in power to hold secret that well. Thus, it turns into "Yes, it was me all along, but I have divided Rohan and Gondor, corrupted your chief wizard, conquered Moria and other territories, and have basically ALL the orcs right now.". At that point, it is too vast an advantage to hide, yet too great a force to be so concerned for the most part. Short of regaining the Ring, he was all set to win.
Pretty much this.

Also, Sauron is definitely not "at the peak of his strength" in LOTR. That'd only happen if he regained the ring, at which point all hell breaks loose.

That's part of what I like about both the Necromancer and Sauron as villains, actually: knowing that they're a serious threat and incredibly powerful... but it could all get a hundred times worse if the good guys fail. The good guys are desperately trying to hold back this immense, seemingly unstoppable force for evil.

Now just imagine how screwed everyone'd be if Melkor showed up :p
 

Augustine

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Best characters are ones that go through meaningful transformations throughout the story. If we treat the whole movie series as one, then he is a good example of antagonist character growth. Which is good.
 

Hazzard

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That doesn't excuse the villain being boring. If the rules of your universe make the villain boring then I think the rules need to be changed.
 

Quellan Thyde

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Considering they're both the same guy, it's a little bit of a strawman argument here.

Feral said:
I thought you meant Sauron the X Men villain. He's a mutant who sucks out mutant energy(or something) and then turns into a pterodactyl, it's pretty cool.
Then again, if *that* Sauron had been the lord of Dol Guldur, we would have had an epic clash of Mutant Sauron vs. Beardzilla Magneto, and that spells awesome in my book.
 

JoJo

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Quellan Thyde said:
Considering they're both the same guy, it's a little bit of a strawman argument here.
Out of interest, how exactly is the OP making a strawman argument? A strawman argument is where you misrepresent your opponent's position to make it easy to then dismiss i.e. knocking down a strawman rather than your opponent's actual argument. Whether you agree with him or not, I don't see that happening here.

OT: I prefer the nearly all-powerful Sauron of LOTR, who mainly relies on his minions to do his dirty work, but I guess it's personal preference really. You don't really see much of him in the first couple of Hobbit films, other than the Sauron-ception part.
 

Dr. Cakey

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I think this is kind of a false comparison, personally. In LotR, Sauron is the Enemy, but in a sense he isn't really the antagonist, because there's no conflict between him and anyone else. He's a force of nature. Or, to spell it out for those who weren't paying attention, he's the Devil.

Not to say the Necromancer as a (slightly) more active participant was bad or anything like that. There are things I'd want to say about his depiction, but sure, if you want to say an antagonist who acts is better than one who doesn't, I'm hardly going to disagree with you.
 

hermes

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Sauron in LOTR is far from "at the height of his power". He is powerful, but he is not really capable of fighting anyone as it was seen in the prologue of Fellowship. His power seems to be more about mental and emotional control, which is something Tolkien put a lot of emphasis on but its hard to depict in a movie. That is the same reason why Frodo is the main protagonist in the books, but it felt relegated in the movies (because carrying something behind enemy lines that slowly consumes your mind is less flamboyant than fighting a bazillion Orcs)

The only reason he fought Gandalf in the Hobbit was because he got too close, which is something we never saw in the previous movies with Sauron. I don't doubt LOTR's Sauron would have crushed anyone that got as close as Gandalf did in The Hobbit. Other than that, he was shown giving commands to its troops instead of fighting himself, so I don't think they are that different.
 

Xdeser2

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well...considering they're the same character, and the Hobbit films are more prequels to the current crop of LoTR films than anything else...

It's kind of a moot point in my mind lol
 

Flippincrazy

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Personally, I found his portrayal as the fearsome yet mysterious 'necromancer' in the Hobbit movies so far to be let down by its jarring disconnect from the general tone of The Hobbit book itself. I've always found the book to be far more simple tale than Lord of Rings, with a very clear heroic plot that Sauron's inclusion only serves to unnecessarily muddy up. His worth as a villain is severely damaged by his irrelevance to the tone of the original material. True, he's confined to the shadows and actually interacts with characters, but I found myself wanting to skip any scene which included him.

Yet in Lord of Rings, an arguably more adult tale, Sauron is the antagonist of the plot and not just some mere addition, making him in my mind far more prominent and fearsome than his incarnation in The Hobbit.
 

GundamSentinel

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FalloutJack said:
Strictly speaking, Sauron only did that because his moves required stealth and trickery, manipulation and above all secrecy. Ergo, "Hello I am the Necromancer of Dol Guldur and totally not Sauron, your most-hated nemesis.". If I might step into the mythical boots of the man for a moment, the chief reason that he no longer hides himself by the LOTR movies is that his hold is very secure and now far too great in power to hold secret that well. Thus, it turns into "Yes, it was me all along, but I have divided Rohan and Gondor, corrupted your chief wizard, conquered Moria and other territories, and have basically ALL the orcs right now.". At that point, it is too vast an advantage to hide, yet too great a force to be so concerned for the most part. Short of regaining the Ring, he was all set to win.
Add to that it has always been a main trick of Sauron to shapeshift into forms that suited his purposes. For instance, he transformed himself into beautiful appearances to ensnare the Elves and Númenóreans, and even to fool the Valar. He was a master of shapeshifters and illusions, commanding werewolves and vampires, even transforming into a giant bat himself. It's just what Sauron does.

When necessary, he could show himself as whatever he wanted. In the end, he felt safe enough to declare himself.
 

Sniper Team 4

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I get what you're saying. He actually did stuff in this movie, as opposed to just being an ominous threat in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Although, we did get to see him fight in the opening of the Fellowship, and that didn't end too well for a lot of the good guys.
Fun Fact: Apparently Aragorn was supposed to fight Sauron at the end of The Return of the King. This was cut at the last minute and replaced with the troll he fights instead. Whether or not this is true, I can't say. I read about it on cracked.com.

Anyway, I think I can sort of agree with you on this point. Sauron does seem to be a better 'threat' in this movie because we are being shown that he is a threat (Gandalf losing his staff = 'Oh crap, this guy's for real!') where as in the Lord of the Rings movies we are constantly told that he's a threat, but we never see it. We see that his servants and armies a threat, but he himself doesn't come across as one too well because he never does anything.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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I dont remember much about the Hobbit (the book, not watched 2nd movie) but didnt the Sauron use stealth, wit and charisma to get what he wanted. Didnt he con the the elves into making the rings for him? He is like the ultimate puppet master. Though i think its unfair to compare the two being that in LotR he spent the whole trilogy as a giant eye.....so really there isnt much he could do really and was more dependent upon others as i dont think he could move from the tower he built.

I guess, the eye of sauron is a threat in the same way Hitler was a threat. If you got Hitler in a room on his own, you could kick his ass easy. But in reality its the army he controlled that gave him the power and made him the threat he was.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Sniper Team 4 said:
Fun Fact: Apparently Aragorn was supposed to fight Sauron at the end of The Return of the King. This was cut at the last minute and replaced with the troll he fights instead. Whether or not this is true, I can't say. I read about it on cracked.com.
Is true my friend, said so in the making of and commentary. The link is below where its all explained, just forward to the 55 second mark.

http://youtu.be/IqKt_h0EPuU