The New York Times Criticizes The Last of Us for Having a Male Protagonist

[nonhoration]

But what kind of games do most women over 30 play? Real games, or Facebook games? Because we know the social "game" developers are targeting older women as their demographic.

According to the ESA 46% of the most frequent game purchasers are women, and you can't buy Facebook games.

Also, really? We're just going to keep narrowing down what a "game" is in order to make sure we don't include women? What's the real difference between something like Farmville and something like WoW other than the platform on which the things you have to click repeatedly appear?



EDIT: @Amyrlyn - You're a lifelong female gamer and you don't think the fairly appreciable difference in marketing dollars (and permitted effort oftentimes) that goes toward games with female protagonists makes a difference in their sales performance?

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I hadn't played the game, and don't plan on buying it because:
A) I'm sick, and tired of being some guy in a videogame. I've been doing it for decades by and large. On occassion I can be enticed to play as a guy, but I'd rather save my cash for something more inclusive of my gender. Ya know, reward those people that give a damn about the female gender enough to let them be playable, and then it's just hoping they're not shunted into stereotypical roles, or somehow given the worse of the power sets that are fairly useless compared to the male counterparts.

B) The story didn't grab me. Not enough to make the game a priority buy anyhow.

That aside, I still commend Naughty Dog for keeping Ellie on the front cover, and getting women in focus groups. It's damned near heroic in my book. I'll likely leap at the game if they make a female protagonist game.

But the broader part of the conversation, the dearth of female protagonists, is something I can talk about.

Honestly, there needs to be more female protagonists out there, preferrably in multi-platform games. Plain and simple. To blazes with excuses. DILLIGAF about excuses? I'm tired of cutting people slack, especially when they don't do anything with it cept maintain the status quo coz they're too cowardly to try and combat it.

Companies that don't have the balls to include women as playable, or make them the hero of their own game are lucky to get my time of day. Their games sure aren't likely to get my attention until they do include women as playable.

What grinds my gears is games that make me beat the game before I can unlock the option to play as female, too. 'z pretty damned annoying. I beat the game, I know what'll happen, and if it's not good enough to play again, then what's the damned point in playing it again? If the game's purely linear, and doesn't change, I can't see a huge point.

The fear of female protagonists needs to go away. The game industry needs to grow a set, and "mature" if they want to be seen as "mature."

The sexual appearances, I'm not terribly bothered about so long as the female protagonist makes up for it in other areas like writing, or delivering something of a power trip. I'm fine with women like Bayonetta who were pretty well written, and in a pretty good game.

For a lot of the people saying the game industry is damned if they do, and damned if they don't, then what diffirence does it make? It's not an excuse to exclude women.

For a lot of the people clamoring that "gender doesn't matter," then why the heck are you against more female protagonists? It's not an excuse to exclude women either.

'm not out to take away the boobies, or some drek like that. I like boobies, too! I like my characters to look awesome! Don't we all? Of course they don't all need massive boobs. Some people aren't fans of massive boobs. That's fine.
I'm not alone in liking boobs, either! One of the main srtists for Skull Girls is a woman. She draws'em cos she likes'em too! Doesn't mean anything more than liking boobs!
Guys like athletes to be in shape, and looking good, don't they? It's real easy for a musclebound adonis like John Cena, and Brock Lesnar to make it in WWE over guys like Sin Cara, isn't it? Guys that aren't musclebound adonises, or uniquely tall get hard pressed to make it past being midcarders, and even then they generally don't make it for extended lengths of time.
Guys like Kratos sure as heck aren't being made for women since so few sections of the gaming industry give a damn about the females, so guys must obviously go for it, right? Doesn't make'em gay, does it? Hell, homosexuality on both genders still gets flak in this day and age.

Another thing that grinds my gears is the rarity in which women can pursue a relationship of -any- sort in a videogame compared to guys that get endless love interests, and more than a few sex scenes.

And effing A, the lack of commercials, and general advertisement for what few games with female protagonsits get made is astoundingly small. It's not uncommon that I have to dig around to find games with female protagonists, and research since there's usually damn near no information readily avaliable.

Heaven forbid I, or anyone, ask that the people who's jobs it is to make, and produce games to get their heads out of their asses, and realize that female protagonists don't sink a damn game so they actually let a few exist more often.

Last, and personally, I find the whole practice of targeting women for elimination from a game, the assaults on their agency, and the general BS that they face in games disgusting. Frankly so do the people that try and defend the status quo.

/rant

 

[Casual Shinji]

I hadn't played the game, and don't plan on buying it because:
A) I'm sick, and tired of being some guy in a videogame. I've been doing it for decades by and large. On occassion I can be enticed to play as a guy, but I'd rather save my cash for something more inclusive of my gender. Ya know, reward those people that give a damn about the female gender enough to let them be playable, and then it's just hoping they're not shunted into stereotypical roles, or somehow given the worse of the power sets that are fairly useless compared to the male counterparts.

B) The story didn't grab me. Not enough to make the game a priority buy anyhow.

You haven't played the game... because the story didn't grab you...? Wut? Did you watch a Let's Play or something? I assume you didn't otherwise you'd know you get to play as Ellie in one chapter. And not just a few minutes, but for a good long while.

This is without a doubt one of if not the most mature game this generation. And if you simply ignore it because you play as a dude, you're the same as all those guys that don't wanna play as a chick cuz cooties.

 

[Smeatza]

I don't think I've ever read an article that makes it so obvious they are jumping on the controversy bandwagon.

"Hey, the protagonist in this game is male, SEXISM SEXISM SEXISM."

A transparent attempt to be better noticed by baiting a current controversy.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I hadn't played the game, and don't plan on buying it because:
A) I'm sick, and tired of being some guy in a videogame. I've been doing it for decades by and large. On occassion I can be enticed to play as a guy, but I'd rather save my cash for something more inclusive of my gender. Ya know, reward those people that give a damn about the female gender enough to let them be playable, and then it's just hoping they're not shunted into stereotypical roles, or somehow given the worse of the power sets that are fairly useless compared to the male counterparts.

B) The story didn't grab me. Not enough to make the game a priority buy anyhow.

You haven't played the game... because the story didn't grab you...? Wut? Did you watch a Let's Play or something? I assume you didn't otherwise you'd know you get to play as Ellie in one chapter. And not just a few minutes, but for a good long while.

This is without a doubt one of if not the most mature game this generation. And if you simply ignore it because you play as a dude, you're the same as all those guys that don't wanna play as a chick cuz cooties.

Storywise, what does it have that the Walking Dead from Tell Tale Games didn't? Zombies, apocalypse, etc. Aside from playing as the girl you protect for most of the game for a chapter which is apparently your big pitch?
Of course I know you get to play as Ellie. The article linked to in post 1 says as much.

Ya wanna talk about maturity? What about having the maturity to recognize that guys don't have to be the game's hero, and main protagonist? What about the portrayal of women in the role of hero and main protagonist? Dealing with their lives, and love lives/interests, and so forth? That women can face hardships, deal with life changing events, and change to become less dainty, and more rugged? That women come in all persoanlity types? That guys aren't the only ones that can have their preconceived notions ripped out at the roots?
It's not a huge leap to have a guy as the hero learning something, or facing adversity, or such. That's not maturing, that's the status quo.

And I didn't simply ignore it because I play as a guy. The story, something direly important in games like this, did not get my attention enough for me to prioritize it over games I find more interesting. It's not really doing anything new, interesting, and/or fun for me.

And unlike the people that you compare me to, I actually have, and certainly plan on playing as some male protagonist only games because the game presented something new, or I respected the subject, or both. And gleefully, too! I've said as much, didn't I? Red Dead Redemption, Arkham City (I'll get asylum eventually! I'm a fan of Kevin Conroy as batman, and Mark Hamil as Joker), and I'm actually looking forward to the Deadpool game. There's a short list.
Nice try to demonize me, though. <.<

It'd be nice if the people you liken me to would do the same, but that'd require a female protagonist so well written, possibly already established, or part of an established brand getting advertised in an awesome manner, and being in an awesome game, wouldn't it? Huh, I wonder when that'll perfect storm will happen?

Sure, Last of Us no doubt forces you to be Ellie for a single chapter, but is it enough to really impact those people you liken me to?

And it's not the "cooties" factor at all. Not even close. It's the oversaturation of dudebro gunmen, white guy protagonists, and stuff that bore me to tears, and turns me off. The usual mid 20s-mid 30s white guy protagonist with sensible haircuts, usually graced with rugged good looks, usually graced with some pretty nice personality traits, and stuff. The game industry does the same thing over, and over, and over again by and large. I'm less inclined to reward them for playing it safe. I'd rather spend money on the risk takers so they're inclined to continue taking the risks in providing something diffirent from the norm.
Sure they let you play as Ellie for a chapter, but really? That's going to be the selling point here? My counterpoint is why couldn't they let you be Ellie all the time? That'd impress me! Why not have an Ellie PoV mode?
Sure ND took important steps (to me at least) in kicking down a pillar or two of the conventional wisdom that the presense of playable women harm sales, but I'm dissapointed they're not taking it further. Instead they're still playing it mostly safe since people believe that a woman on the cover harms sales.

Like I said, I've been playing the role of white guy hero for a very long time. I'm starved for variation. I'm starved to play my own gender most of all, especially from one end of the game to the other. Is it wrong that I want the rare luxury of playing my own gender for the majority of a game more than playing some guy? It'd be diffirent if it wasn't rare, I assure you of that! I certainly don't have the income for many games per year, so I have to wait, and be choosey. I can't buy every gaming system in the hopes to play the rare, spread out female protagonsits either.

I'm pretty certain most guys can't grasp my angle considering that they get so much representation, and can occassionaly get variation. Maybe if they were in a minority themselves, since most racial minorities are under represented, too? Or the LGBTQ community, too? I dunno.

Like I said, though, I applaud the hell out of Naughty Dog for taking a stand on the focus groups, and Ellie staying on the cover, but there's games that give me what I crave already out there, and in the near future. I have little budget for luxuries, so I have to be choosey about what games I get regardless of the gender of the main protagonist. I guess it's a good thing that the games I'm after are so damned rare in themselves, huh?

 

[WindKnight]

I'm saying that I doubt that they do just assume anything. Doesn't everyone do market research? Which seems alot like the opposite of being happy to just assume that something is true.

It's not to say that a game couldn't subvert the industry norms and be successful(good ideas often come from out on the fringe). It's to say that the people getting indignant about these companies not gambling should get over themselves. If there was truly as big of an untapped market as a lot of people are claiming, somebody would stroll in and clean up.

I don't understand how people can in good-conscience be talking about what these companies should do without knowing what they're talking about.

Well, lets see what these companies 'know what their doing'.

lets see, EA. 'they know what their doing' by antagonising their customer bases and hemorrhaging money.

Activision. they 'knew what they were doing' when they drove an entire genre and top selling franchise into the ground by release multiple titles for it in a matter of months. And when marketing was telling them that the big thing at the moment was WWII shooters, they did their damnedest to stop infinity ward from making Modern Warfare. This company we trust to 'know what its doing' would have killed its cash cow franchise, and lost god knows how much money because everybody though they should be making World War II shooters.

These are the companies who's words we're supposed to accept that female characters are a bad idea.

 

[Brown_Coat117]

According to the ESA about 25% of console gamers are women. So tough choice make a game, in this case The Last of Us a console exclusive, that appeals primary to 75% of your target market with and element that will appeal to the other 25%, or the other way around, with millions of dollars invested what would you do, honestly. Because honestly from a business perspective I would choose the first.

Also look what what the hell we do when we have a 2 legit well voiced choices in a video game. Mass Effect 3 male 85% femshep 15%. Granted this is from gamers who were online and finished the game but come on, 85% to 15% in a game that sold over 4 million. How was I counted? Well if it counted both of my characters who I did all missions with all DLC in all 3 games I would have broken even, if it just counted our first character I would count to the 15% side while being male in real life.

Yes I would like more variety with game protagonists but it all comes down to money as businesses often do. We as gamers have done a shitty job justifying companies spending money on game with female protagonists and thus we don't get them.

 

[generals3]

These are the companies who's words we're supposed to accept that female characters are a bad idea.

Well who would you trust to know the market better: companies which are worth billions and make a net income with 6 zero's or random forum posters who didn't do any research nor follow any marketing courses and base their assessments on anecdotal evidence?

It is true these companies aren't infallible, none are, but there are no more trustworthy sources contradicting them. So why should we assume they're wrong?

 

[CityofTreez]

If Joel's character had been female:
"And of course the main character had to be a woman, because who else has the maternal instincts to raise a young girl in a post apocalyptic setting. It just goes to show that even in an action packed game like this, the games industry can't allow women to be badass without attributing it to maternal instinct."

If Joel had been female and Ellie was male:
"And of course despite having a badass female "main" character, the creators of the game just could resist taking the spotlight from her and putting it on the male character. Will the games industry ever be able to get over its clear and obvious bias against women."

If fem-Joel had been kicking all kinds of ass:
"And of course the female main character is just another example of a man. She might have boobs and other lady parts, but that's the only difference. When will the games industry learn that a good female character is not just a man in a skirt."

If fem-Joel had been showing any behaviour deemed "feminine":
"And of course they couldn't just let her be an awesome badass hero like the guys we see in every other game. No. She has to be the "mother" of the game. When will the games industry learn that what makes a good female character is no different to what makes a good male character."

This guy (gal?)...gets it.

OT: I hate when people complain about a certain protagonist being male or female. No matter what, people will find something to hate about anything.

 

[Brown_Coat117]

If Joel's character had been female:
"And of course the main character had to be a woman, because who else has the maternal instincts to raise a young girl in a post apocalyptic setting. It just goes to show that even in an action packed game like this, the games industry can't allow women to be badass without attributing it to maternal instinct."

If Joel had been female and Ellie was male:
"And of course despite having a badass female "main" character, the creators of the game just could resist taking the spotlight from her and putting it on the male character. Will the games industry ever be able to get over its clear and obvious bias against women."

If fem-Joel had been kicking all kinds of ass:
"And of course the female main character is just another example of a man. She might have boobs and other lady parts, but that's the only difference. When will the games industry learn that a good female character is not just a man in a skirt."

If fem-Joel had been showing any behaviour deemed "feminine":
"And of course they couldn't just let her be an awesome badass hero like the guys we see in every other game. No. She has to be the "mother" of the game. When will the games industry learn that what makes a good female character is no different to what makes a good male character."

I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite post on this thread. Seriously dude you nailed it.

 

[WindKnight]

These are the companies who's words we're supposed to accept that female characters are a bad idea.

Well who would you trust to know the market better: companies which are worth billions and make a net income with 6 zero's or random forum posters who didn't do any research nor follow any marketing courses and base their assessments on anecdotal evidence?

It is true these companies aren't infallible, none are, but there are no more trustworthy sources contradicting them. So why should we assume they're wrong?

Again, tell me why I should trust a company so shortsighted that if it had gotten its way, it would have thrown a pile of money in the garbage, and even then rewarded the company that gave it said pile of money by trying to constrain it creatively and then kick out its top people instead of trusting it afterwards?

 

[Brown_Coat117]

SO the author of that is a white knighting douchebag?

Who woulda thunk it... Just ignore the retard and move on.

Problem is that this dovetails too nicely with ongoing gamer debate (which was undoubtedly the idea,) for those who already want to raise holy hell over the subject.

 

[generals3]

Again, tell me why I should trust a company so shortsighted that if it had gotten its way, it would have thrown a pile of money in the garbage, and even then rewarded the company that gave it said pile of money by trying to constrain it creatively and then kick out its top people instead of trusting it afterwards?

Because said companies are still making money? Regardless of your opinion they must be doing something right.
On top of that Research also backs them up. Any numbers/studies clearly suggests their instinct (on this subject) is right. It's not conclusive, because i've yet to find the "I win market research" which would answer all our questions beyond a doubt, but it's something.

And I also find the whole questioning of the industry's decisions kind of weird. We don't question coca cola's decision to release coke zero because they thought coke light just wouldn't ever sell as well to men? We don't question cosmetic companies for their decision to make a lot of products mainly for women? We don't question beer brands which mainly target men either? (well at least i never saw any "complaints" about those things)

 

[hermes]

Ok, that is stupid. And the definition of nitpicky...

I am all for more games with variety, but not all games need to have an african-american female disabled woman as a protagonist just to satisfy the desires of people that can't play a game without an african-american female disabled woman as a protagonist.

 

[idarkphoenixi]

Guess this is what gaming has been reduced to now, complaining every time the main character isn't a female.

Even though Ellie is one of the best females characters EVER seen in a game and Joel is kinda generic-though-interesting (grizzled, unshaven, older white guy with a dramatic history). Don't get me wrong, the relationship between Joel and Ellie was fantastic but I liked her as a character way more.

Not to mention Tess, you may not see her throughout the entire game but she was also a great character.

You can even play as Ellie for a massively important section of the game and Naughty Dog fought like hell to keep Ellie on the front cover. What more do you want?

 

[Savagezion]

Wow, is it even possible today for someone to point at a game and claim sexism without amassing a crowd of people defending that claim? Seriously, I have yet to see it. Remember me will probably also get this treatment from some part of the game. I love how 1/4 of the game (Chapter 3 of 4) you play as Ellie and he acts like it is a tiny part of the game. I ain't going to post spoilers in here but this is retarded.

 

[WindKnight]

Again, tell me why I should trust a company so shortsighted that if it had gotten its way, it would have thrown a pile of money in the garbage, and even then rewarded the company that gave it said pile of money by trying to constrain it creatively and then kick out its top people instead of trusting it afterwards?

Because said companies are still making money? Regardless of your opinion they must be doing something right.
On top of that Research also backs them up. Any numbers/studies clearly suggests their instinct (on this subject) is right. It's not conclusive, because i've yet to find the "I win market research" which would answer all our questions beyond a doubt, but it's something.

And I also find the whole questioning of the industry's decisions kind of weird. We don't question coca cola's decision to release coke zero because they thought coke light just wouldn't ever sell as well to men? We don't question cosmetic companies for their decision to make a lot of products mainly for women? We don't question beer brands which mainly target men either? (well at least i never saw any "complaints" about those things)

Do I really need to link the jimquisition episodes on marketing, and ignoring customers who are there because your too focused on one slice of the market?

To reiterate, they there prepared to throw away money because their focus was too narrow. Why are we assuming by narrowing their focus even further, their not just making the same mistake, even bigger? Why are we assuming their making money because of bonheaded decisions, and not in spite of them?

And lets bring in Confirmation Bias - we're told female led movies don't sell, but The Devil Wears Prada and Bridesmaids made a killing at the box office, only for these success ares ignored as flukes. 101 Male led movies can tank, but no-one thinks a male led movie will ever be a box office disaster.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

Would he prefer a game where he played entirely as the girl being handheld by the fully grown man?

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

If Joel's character had been female:
"And of course the main character had to be a woman, because who else has the maternal instincts to raise a young girl in a post apocalyptic setting. It just goes to show that even in an action packed game like this, the games industry can't allow women to be badass without attributing it to maternal instinct."

If Joel had been female and Ellie was male:
"And of course despite having a badass female "main" character, the creators of the game just could resist taking the spotlight from her and putting it on the male character. Will the games industry ever be able to get over its clear and obvious bias against women."

If fem-Joel had been kicking all kinds of ass:
"And of course the female main character is just another example of a man. She might have boobs and other lady parts, but that's the only difference. When will the games industry learn that a good female character is not just a man in a skirt."

If fem-Joel had been showing any behaviour deemed "feminine":
"And of course they couldn't just let her be an awesome badass hero like the guys we see in every other game. No. She has to be the "mother" of the game. When will the games industry learn that what makes a good female character is no different to what makes a good male character."

oh god, this was perfect.

sadly there is a hint of truth in your satirical post.

OT: if they did this for EVERY game, then i could maybe be "okay" with it, but unless the reviewer is shooting down every white male game coming out, then it's utter bullshit to jump on ND for this as some sort of negative. Yes, it would be wonderful if more developers had female leads and awesome protagonists, but that doesn't mean you cut down a developer for using male protagonist that is at least decently written, otherwise the witch hunts will begin and i'm hoping having all white male protagonists burned at the stake is not your end game *peers into the angry gaze of party poopers who agree with the reviewer 100%*