The Next Hearthstone Patch is Changing Up Some Classic Cards

[Jandau]

Let me translate that for you: "We think we can make even more people buy even more packs if we nerf the basic cards that they were using to maybe get something done...

 

[The Bucket]

And what's with the master of disguise nerf?
Was stealth ever that much of a problem? Really now?

Yeah, my first reaction when i read that was: "Somebody actually played that!?"

The idea as far as I understand wasn't so much that it was a problem now, more so that they couldn't make certain kinds of generic cards with lingering abilities that'd gain too much from being able to stealth them at will

 

[NoeL]

As much as people like to joke about this or that cancer class/deck, is making rogue unplayable in wild really the best decision on that list?

Yep, because now they're free to print rogue weapons with higher attack stats. It's kinda bad now because those cards don't yet exist (unless they're revealing some with WoG), but when rogues have, say, an Arcanite Reaper equivalent then it'll be comparable to Shadowflame, which is a good card.

All in all I think the changes were for the best, but Arcane Golem was a mistake. It should at LEAST be a 4/5, if not a 5/5, for such a significant drawback.

Keeper is juuuust ok - not quite a mistake. You could compare it to Spellbreaker and say the extra 3 stats are worth sacrificing the flexibility to deal 2 damage, but I disagree. People played Keeper over Spellbreaker because it was tough enough to stick around, whereas 3 health is just too weak (dies to a 2 drop). So I don't think Keeper being a 2/3 is significantly better than a 2/2 (though a 2/2 is miles better than a 2/1 since it doesn't die to hero power). At 2/3 the Keeper would still be significantly better than Spellbreaker, and I think even at 2/2 the flexibility to deal 2 damage instead of silencing makes it comparable, if not sliiiightly better. But class cards should be stronger, so maybe 2/3 was the better option.

And what's with the master of disguise nerf?
Was stealth ever that much of a problem? Really now?

Yeah, my first reaction when i read that was: "Somebody actually played that!?"

The idea as far as I understand wasn't so much that it was a problem now, more so that they couldn't make certain kinds of generic cards with lingering abilities that'd gain too much from being able to stealth them at will

Exactly. With the new cards coming out that make cheap duplicates of minions the perma-stealth becomes insane. They can also make low-cost neutral cards with strong ongoing effects, unlike the pitiful "Give a random minion +1 something".

 

[Gizen]

As much as people like to joke about this or that cancer class/deck, is making rogue unplayable in wild really the best decision on that list?

Yep, because now they're free to print rogue weapons with higher attack stats. It's kinda bad now because those cards don't yet exist (unless they're revealing some with WoG), but when rogues have, say, an Arcanite Reaper equivalent then it'll be comparable to Shadowflame, which is a good card.

I strongly disagree. Shadowflame is much easier to use than Blade Flurry because it sacrifices a minion, which by default you're always going to be running, and because it also has other aoe options like Hellfire or Demonwrath that it can use in the meantime until it builds up enough of a board that it can afford to sacrifice something to Shadowflame. Alternatively it can just drop a free Molten Giant and Shadowflame that (admittedly more difficult to do now since that's also nerfed, but still possible).

In contrast, sacrificing a weapon is drastically less reliable than a minion. Even if there is a weapon worth running, it'll only be 2 cards in your deck, while a minion is frequently 20 or more. So you're drastically less likely to get the thing you need to sacrifice to Blade Flurry to begin with, and in the meantime you have no other aoe as a rogue so you don't even have any way to stall out the board until you do.

And that's assuming you even have a big weapon worth running to begin with, which I'm not convinced rogue would get. Oh sure, maybe they'll get a big weapon now that they wouldn't before, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't actually want to run it. There are reasons why Arcanite Reaper doesn't get used outside of face Warrior, itself a deck that doesn't see play. Weapons typically cost 1 mana per attack, and so big weapons are typically poor value compared to just a big creature, and less efficient as single target removal when they cost so much. So to get a big Blade Flurry, you're running two different expensive cards that are terrible on their own, just so you can maybe combine them together to get an overpriced flamestrike.

And all THAT'S not even taking into account one of the biggest issue with rogues and weapons, that being that rogue is the only weapon using class that can't negate the cost of having to smash its face into things. Shaman and paladin both have heals, while warrior has ludicrous amounts of armour gain. Admittedly, hunters don't get any way to sustain either, but hunters also don't actually hit creatures with their weapons, they just go face, something rogue doesn't want to do because it lacks the tools to be aggro. The only rogue weapon that ever seriously saw play was Perdition's Blade, and that's because it had something major in common with Blade Flurry, the ability to use your weapon as removal without actually having to attack the creature to do it.

Finally, there's the issue of thematics. Big, hard hitting weapons is warrior's gimmick. Rogue, both in WoW and in Hearthstone, has always been about taking smaller, weaker weapons and making them big and threatening with poisons. So even if all my prior points were somehow negated by some sort of amazing Arcanite Reaper equivalent, it would likely feel out of place on the class and take away some of its unique flavour.

So, no, you can't really compare Blade Flurry to Shadowflame, and the likelihood of a weapon appearing at any point in the future that makes Blade Flurry not trash is slim to none. Better off hoping for a brand new aoe spell entirely than any hope of Blade Flurry being useable now.

 

[RedDeadFred]

I like most of the changes except:

Ancient of Lore is just bad now. I really don't see it being run anymore.

Knife Juggler's nerf seems pretty light. A lot of people suggested changing the effect to only work off of played minions. I would've liked that a lot.

Arcane Golem is awful. It could've been a 4/5.

The Blade Flurry change is controversial, but, as someone who's been longing for some new, good weapons, I think this is a good idea. Blizzard couldn't make good Rogue weapons as long as this card had the cheap burst and board clear potential that it did.

 

[rcs619]

Oh wow, bye bye ironbeak owl.
3 mana for a 2/1 body is just lolno, even if it comes with silence.
Just 1 more mana and you have spellbreakers which remain unchanged and have actually useful stats.

I think that's kind of the point. They want silence to cost at least 4. Owl is still super strong though, since silence is the most powerful effect in the entire game. It's basically still 3-mana make a minion useless. No one ever played it for the body.

Keepers got it even worse.
Nobody will bring a 4 mana 2/2 body, regardless of the silence or utility.
That card is just straight up dead.

It's definitely no longer an auto-include (which is good! There should be very few auto-includes), but once again, silence is the most powerful effect in the game, and having an extra way to induce it is still powerful. It just can't get innervated out on 2 anymore, silence/kill a thing with the two damage *and* easily contest most small minions in the game.

And what's with the master of disguise nerf?
Was stealth ever that much of a problem? Really now?

Master of Disguise was a pre-nerf. No one ever used it, but being able to give permanent stealth is kind of broken. Only a matter of time until it became a part of some warsong-level shenanigans. So they nipped it in the bud early.

Actually, I think it is going to be pretty much useless with that nerf. Sure, Blade Flurry was a decent board clear, but that's not what it was used for. It was mainly used for the burst.

Pretty much only in the oil deck, which was not going to be playable in standard anyway.

And unlike, say, Freeze-Mage, that burst actually was rather risky and took a lot of setup. You had to weigh your options; should I use my Deadly Poison now to get rid of a minion, or should I save it for the final burst? If I buff my weapon now I might save the mana next turn, but they might also be able to remove it. You had to invest a lot in order to get your big burst with that card, and that was the reason that Oil-Rogue was a fun deck to play; it was viable, but it took a lot of thought.

And miracle-style rogues will still be around, and they've still got a lot of burst potential even without flurry hitting face. Especially since good ole Malygos remains unchanged

Basically, you wouldn't want me to be able to hit face with a molten giant then shadowflame it to not only clear your entire board, but hit you in the face again on the same turn. This brings flurry more in line with other big clears, and I still think it's arguably better than shadowflame in a lot of scenarios. It's much easier to hold onto the last charge of a weapon until you need it than it is to play out a big minion them immediately sacrifice it with a 4-mana spell.

And besides, let's compare the new Blade Flurry to everybody's happiest little wave of fire; Flamestrike. Flamestrike is a 7 mana 4 damage to every minion spell. What do you have to invest in order to get Blade Flurry up to roughly the same level?
First you need Blade Flurry itself. 4 mana, 0 damage, 1 card.
Then you need a weapon. Let's take the one from our hero power just because that one you can always have. 2 mana, 1 damage, no card.
Now we need to buff our weapon. Deadly Poison is a good, cost-effective buff, so let's add one of those. 1 mana, 2 damage, 1 card.

Now we've spent 7 mana, 2 cards, and a hero power, and yet we've only reached 3 damage to all enemy minions.

No, you've reached "Deal 6 damage to an enemy minion and 3 damage to every other enemy minion." It's basically a super-swipe for between 1 and 3 mana more, depending on if you've already got your knives up. You do need to set it up ahead of time, but it's rogue. They have to set everything up ahead of time.

Flamestrike is just, 7 mana, 4 damage. No more, no less. That one minion have more than 4 health? Tough luck, he survives and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

And what's with the master of disguise nerf?
Was stealth ever that much of a problem? Really now?

Talk on the internet is that Blizzard wants to add neutrals with strong effects while they are staying on the field. So a perma stealth is apparently too strong since you could just stealth the enemy and only few things can kill it. I remember getting Living Armor and Master of Disguise during 2 tavern brawls. Needless to say I won both since the enemy could deal almost no damage to me. Or imagine an effect like Mal'Ganis' with perma stealth. 7 health means 2 strong AOE spells are needed or some of the minions that can miss. But that again is luck based. And even then he's 9/7, meaning you need 2 of them or a buffed one.

But it's Blizzard. They will neft Master of Disguise and not add anything to compensate for it. For fucks sake, how hard would it be to add "Removes stealth a the start of your turn" to minions that have strong staying effects. Sure, might be impractically for now but until they fix Rogue to be above shit tier, there is no reason to nerf their cards this hard.

 

[The Philistine]

The ironbeak nerf seems like it will move aggro/zoo decks towards Spellbreaker. Black Knight may also see a return to the meta, given the emphasis on bigger taunt minions.

Leper Gnome and Knife Juggler nerfs will also slow aggro decks down.

The druid nerfs effectively killed the current combos that were auto-includes in every deck, probably prompting a return of ramp druid decks.

Those changes, along with the abundance of anti-aggro tools coming with the new expansion should shift the game towards turn 10 and beyond.

 

[PunkRex]

I've only played a hand full of games but I watch it a lot, so I may be speaking out of my ass but big shifts in value (like these) don't promote variety, they just kill cards. The Leper Gnome/Knife Juggler/Arcane Golem thing just seems like a shift towards a slower meta, which is kinda bollox when you think about it, WotOG is pushing for a slower game but that's not really a fair reason to tell aggro players to get stuffed. These cards will likely survive though, those Druid cards on the other hand, I get that Druid was kinda predictable but damn son.

It's like seeing my beautiful Warsong Commander be forced into retirement... SHE DESERVED BETTER THAN THAT BLIZZARD!

Also, why the funkin waggles are they nerfing Master of Disguise? That's like beating on the poor kid at school, leave her alone Blizzard, she aint doing anything! How's about you address the fact that Booty Bay Bodyguard and Magma Rager are still totally pointless.

 

[Mangod]

I've only played a hand full of games but I watch it a lot, so I may be speaking out of my ass but big shifts in value (like these) don't promote variety, they just kill cards. The Leper Gnome/Knife Juggler/Arcane Golem thing just seems like a shift towards a slower meta, which is kinda bollox when you think about it, WotOG is pushing for a slower game but that's not really a fair reason to tell aggro players to get stuffed. These cards will likely survive though, those Druid cards on the other hand, I get that Druid was kinda predictable but damn son.

It's like seeing my beautiful Warsong Commander be forced into retirement... SHE DESERVED BETTER THAN THAT BLIZZARD!

Also, why the funkin waggles are they nerfing Master of Disguise? That's like beating on the poor kid at school, leave her alone Blizzard, she aint doing anything! How's about you address the fact that Booty Bay Bodyguard and Magma Rager are still totally pointless.

Booty Bay Bodyguard and Magma Rager did get addressed in TGT, in the form of Evil Heckler (cheaper) and Ice Rager (better stats), respectively. Not that I ever see those get played either.

 

[The Philistine]

I've only played a hand full of games but I watch it a lot, so I may be speaking out of my ass but big shifts in value (like these) don't promote variety, they just kill cards. The Leper Gnome/Knife Juggler/Arcane Golem thing just seems like a shift towards a slower meta, which is kinda bollox when you think about it, WotOG is pushing for a slower game but that's not really a fair reason to tell aggro players to get stuffed. These cards will likely survive though, those Druid cards on the other hand, I get that Druid was kinda predictable but damn son.

It's like seeing my beautiful Warsong Commander be forced into retirement... SHE DESERVED BETTER THAN THAT BLIZZARD!

Also, why the funkin waggles are they nerfing Master of Disguise? That's like beating on the poor kid at school, leave her alone Blizzard, she aint doing anything! How's about you address the fact that Booty Bay Bodyguard and Magma Rager are still totally pointless.

Aggro will persist in some form or another. The low cost aggressive playstyle suffers much less from playing cards off curve and punishes slower decks quite a bit more when they don't have immediate answers every turn. At most, the nerfs alone might give their opponents another turn to stabilize.

In the process, it should make other cards more interesting in the process. For druids, you currently almost never see Aviana or Cenarius used in ranged play, because who cares about big minions when the game ends by turn 9? The same with hunter, you'll likely see a shift towards more midrange decks without them getting stomped out by aggro.

As for Master of Disguise, I'm guess it's to prevent stuff like sitting Malygos in perma stealth.

 

[MoltenSilver]

Also, why the funkin waggles are they nerfing Master of Disguise? That's like beating on the poor kid at school, leave her alone Blizzard, she aint doing anything! How's about you address the fact that Booty Bay Bodyguard and Magma Rager are still totally pointless.

Because so long as it exists they can't make a low-mana/weak-body neutral minion with a powerful recurring effect or Master Of Disguise would just protect it forever. Gadgetzan Auctioneer has already shown just how powerful even a single turn of stealth can do for a persistent effect, much less 'stealth until your opponent draws a strong enough aoe'. Blood Imp got harshly nerfed back in beta for the same reason. That said I do agree with you that Blizzard's 'no buffs' policy is incredibly grating and doesn't paint a positive picture of their balance team.

 

[MCerberus]

The ironbeak nerf seems like it will move aggro/zoo decks towards Spellbreaker. Black Knight may also see a return to the meta, given the emphasis on bigger taunt minions.

Leper Gnome and Knife Juggler nerfs will also slow aggro decks down.

The druid nerfs effectively killed the current combos that were auto-includes in every deck, probably prompting a return of ramp druid decks.

Those changes, along with the abundance of anti-aggro tools coming with the new expansion should shift the game towards turn 10 and beyond.

As a dragon priest player I'm okay with that.

Anyway, shifting the silence to a 4-mana is actually really harsh for agro, turning it from a 1 mana nerf to effectively 2.

Also, hearthstone folks. I have a fun summoning stone mage deck I like to derp around with, any good replacement for unstable portal you recommend to keep it standard?

 

[Gizen]

The Blade Flurry change is controversial, but, as someone who's been longing for some new, good weapons, I think this is a good idea. Blizzard couldn't make good Rogue weapons as long as this card had the cheap burst and board clear potential that it did.

You say this, but considering the full set is now revealed and rogue got no new weapons at all, that reasoning is invalidated.

 

[The Philistine]

Also, hearthstone folks. I have a fun summoning stone mage deck I like to derp around with, any good replacement for unstable portal you recommend to keep it standard?

Probably best to wait for the full reveal of cards for the set. At the moment, assuming you're already running frostbolt, there's not a good 2 mana alternative. Arcane Explosion just isn't that good in constructed. You might be able to get away with Forgotten Torch, depending on the deck setup.

*And looking catching up on the newly revealed cards, Shatter is probably your go-to card for the 2 mana slot if you're looking for control. Otherwise stick with a minion for the tempo.

 

[PunkRex]

Booty Bay Bodyguard and Magma Rager did get addressed in TGT, in the form of Evil Heckler (cheaper) and Ice Rager (better stats), respectively. Not that I ever see those get played either.

That was my point, they were replaced by strictly better cards, I think that's pointless in a digital game.

As for Master of Disguise, I'm guess it's to prevent stuff like sitting Malygos in perma stealth.

Because so long as it exists they can't make a low-mana/weak-body neutral minion with a powerful recurring effect or Master Of Disguise would just protect it forever. Gadgetzan Auctioneer has already shown just how powerful even a single turn of stealth can do for a persistent effect, much less 'stealth until your opponent draws a strong enough aoe'. Blood Imp got harshly nerfed back in beta for the same reason. That said I do agree with you that Blizzard's 'no buffs' policy is incredibly grating and doesn't paint a positive picture of their balance team.

Fair enough I suppose, stealth can kinda run away with games.

My main point was that it must be fairly grating for players who have repeatably seen their cards get nerfed, some cards are still functional but then you have examples like Buzzard (which was just ridiculous over kill) and Commander (which was just lazy design).

 

[RedDeadFred]

The Blade Flurry change is controversial, but, as someone who's been longing for some new, good weapons, I think this is a good idea. Blizzard couldn't make good Rogue weapons as long as this card had the cheap burst and board clear potential that it did.

You say this, but considering the full set is now revealed and rogue got no new weapons at all, that reasoning is invalidated.

I'm pretty sure WotOG isn't the last set they'll ever make so no, the reasoning isn't invalidated. It was a design limiter, similar to how Master of Disguise was.

 

[9tailedflame]

Only ones i use are leper gnome and knife juggler. Won't change much about knife juggler, his attack was never the point, the point was spamming cheap units and machinegunning your opponents board to control their field, but the leper gnome nerf hurts a bit, as it screws with my death rattle shaman deck somewhat, and i finally made a somewhat decent shaman deck too, shame.

 

[ArkhamJester]

I've only played a hand full of games but I watch it a lot, so I may be speaking out of my ass but big shifts in value (like these) don't promote variety, they just kill cards. The Leper Gnome/Knife Juggler/Arcane Golem thing just seems like a shift towards a slower meta, which is kinda bollox when you think about it, WotOG is pushing for a slower game but that's not really a fair reason to tell aggro players to get stuffed. These cards will likely survive though, those Druid cards on the other hand, I get that Druid was kinda predictable but damn son.

It's like seeing my beautiful Warsong Commander be forced into retirement... SHE DESERVED BETTER THAN THAT BLIZZARD!

Also, why the funkin waggles are they nerfing Master of Disguise? That's like beating on the poor kid at school, leave her alone Blizzard, she aint doing anything! How's about you address the fact that Booty Bay Bodyguard and Magma Rager are still totally pointless.

Aggro will persist in some form or another. The low cost aggressive playstyle suffers much less from playing cards off curve and punishes slower decks quite a bit more when they don't have immediate answers every turn. At most, the nerfs alone might give their opponents another turn to stabilize.

In the process, it should make other cards more interesting in the process. For druids, you currently almost never see Aviana or Cenarius used in ranged play, because who cares about big minions when the game ends by turn 9? The same with hunter, you'll likely see a shift towards more midrange decks without them getting stomped out by aggro.

As for Master of Disguise, I'm guess it's to prevent stuff like sitting Malygos in perma stealth.

Hey! Cenarius was sometimes used in Egg Druid ( a deck which actually sees some competitive play), that said I agree with just about everything else. Agrro will never die merely go into semi-slumber, than new cards come out and the bear crawls out and eats your face.

 

[Gizen]

The Blade Flurry change is controversial, but, as someone who's been longing for some new, good weapons, I think this is a good idea. Blizzard couldn't make good Rogue weapons as long as this card had the cheap burst and board clear potential that it did.

You say this, but considering the full set is now revealed and rogue got no new weapons at all, that reasoning is invalidated.

I'm pretty sure WotOG isn't the last set they'll ever make so no, the reasoning isn't invalidated. It was a design limiter, similar to how Master of Disguise was.

So then you wait to nerf it until you're actually making the cards that would otherwise be impossible. Yes, someday in the far off future 5 years from now rogue will MAYBE get a good weapon because of this change, but in the meantime, right NOW, rogue is pretty fucked.