The Orville - Star Trek Fanfiction...with penis jokes.

[Saelune]

Starfleet is not military in any sense of the word.

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/54154/is-starfleet-a-military-or-civilian-organization

It actually is. In the very sense of the word.

Military [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/military]

Definition of military

1 a f or relating to soldiers, arms, or war military discipline the country's military needs
b f or relating to armed forces; especially f or relating to ground or sometimes ground and air forces as opposed to naval forces military and naval affairs
2 a erformed or made by armed forces military operations
b :supported by armed force a military government
3 f or relating to the army the military academy at West Point

Given that definition, having Warship... I'm sorry, "Tactical Cruisers that were only really designed for combat" such as the Prometheus Class [http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Prometheus_class] and the Defiant Class [http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Defiant_class] makes Starfleet the federation's de facto military. They are the ones issued the ships that can fight battles, they are the ones issued the phasers. They are what the Federation has and who the Federation uses when war breaks out.

They can call them whatever they want, but by definition, they are a military branch. But as I've said many times before, and in the last time you quoted me, their actual position in the Starfleet is a hybrid of military peacekeeping exploring diplomats.

By that definition, half of the American population are "military".

For me, it hinges on the aims of the organisation - to explore strange new worlds, to seek out life. Explorers are armed but not all of them seek to invade.

Let me know when half of the US population is given warships, advanced weaponry, and the blessing of the World's Government to go around and use that stuff on people.

If you think a military's sole purpose is invasion, then you have a very medieval view of military.

And if you think the military's job is to conduct diplomacy, carry out peaceful scientific research and explore in search of new life to expand knowledge of the universe, your definition of the word is vastly overreaching.

One of us is far more compatible with the other. The modern military is not just soldiers and those who lead them.

The military are not explorers right now cause...we're past that on Earth. No new lands to discover here. But space? Do you really think the second we find other civilizations in space the military is not going to get involved?

And hell, we had military explorers. Namely the Romans and the Spanish. I hope when faced with space civilizations we wont do as they did, but still.

Starfleet is the fusion of services and programs and organizations, both military and non. They are what they are needed to be.

When Earth was threatened by the Borg, who did they send? Who headed the armada?

When Romulans start showing signs of actions, who is it they call to intercept?

If Starfleet is not 'military' then nothing is because they keep sending their 'non military' to do all the military work.

It is just a matter of what has become the ideals of Earth. Star Trek is an optimist's view of the future, where we dont jump to violent conclusions, where we value science and diplomacy over power, and so the military became more than that. But they do touch on how that could have been different when some time-shenanigans shows what would have happened if the war with the Klingons persisted and they instead forsake science and diplomacy. Was a good episode too, and gave us Sela Yar.

 

[Saelune]

Starfleet is military. It is not a matter of opinion or discussion. Anyone who thinks Starfleet is not military never watched the show.

 

[Queen Michael]

Is it not sensible to see that trend continuing in the next few hundred years? And The Orville is set in what, 2500?

I'mma say no, it's not sensible to see that continue. That far in the future, we can't know which trends will continue and which ones won't.

 

[Tanis]

I'd give a 6/10 myself.

It's basically 'Seth Does His Humor...IN SPACE'.

I mean, holy shite did they do some 'visual porn' with the long camera shots over the various tech.

Also: Isn't their 'main baddie' basically the Jem'Hadar?

 

[Laughing Man]

Starfleet is military. It is not a matter of opinion or discussion. Anyone who thinks Starfleet is not military never watched the show.

No they aren't, they are capable of conducting military style duties and the tenants of what we would call military command and infrastructure are present but they are not military. And you're right it isn't a matter of opinion, the show itself, the movies and the creator of the entire concept have ALL stated time and again that Starfleet IS NOT military.

As for The Orville, not sure yet. The trailers for the show showed us the best jokes so their wasn't anything new in the show that struck me as being that funny. It's clear that the show is very much aping Star Trek, the great big fanfare music the long sweeping shots of the ship (no bad thing right enough) the ship is actually quite good looking certainly better than Kelvin Enterprise and STD's Discovery. The big concern just now is that the character base (the bridge crew) is a bit too small and the characters aren't interesting enough to hold contained episode about them, you know like TNG would have an entire episode about Data and Geordie. I am also wondering if he is going to try and build a living universe or weathger we will just have a planet of the week, scenario of the week, that we will never ever hear about again or if their will be a more overarcing story going on, besides his issues with his former wife.

On the flipside the Alien lifeforms were pretty good and a decent mix of non human vs human like aliens. The conclusion to the episode was actually quite original as well.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Starfleet is military. It is not a matter of opinion or discussion. Anyone who thinks Starfleet is not military never watched the show.

No they aren't, they are capable of conducting military style duties and the tenants of what we would call military command and infrastructure are present but they are not military. And you're right it isn't a matter of opinion, the show itself, the movies and the creator of the entire concept have ALL stated time and again that Starfleet IS NOT military.

Does it matter what people call themselves? The Rebels in Star Wars call themselves freedom fighters. The Empire calls them Terrorists. Who is right? Well, "Right" depends on your affliction. If you're suffering under the regime of Empire, and the Rebellion just blew up the local base of Operations for the Empire, hell yes you're going to call the Rebels freedom fighters and you're going to support them with everything you got.

If you work for the Empire, a clerical job married to someone who works at that base of Operations on the wrong day... Yes, the Rebel scum are nothing but cowardly terrorists that all need to be stamped out.

By definition? They are both.

Definition of freedom fighter

:a person who takes part in a resistance movement against an oppressive political or social establishment (Source [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freedom%20fighter])

terrorist
Someone who uses violence, mayhem, and destruction ? or the threat of those things ? to coerce people or countries into taking a certain action is a terrorist. A terrorist may be motivated by religious fervor, politics, or just plain old-fashioned greed.(Source [https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/terrorist])

Likewise, Starfleet may not call themselves a military, The Federation may not call Starfleet a Military, but they are trained for war. They are given Tactical Cruisers, phasers, photon torpedoes, self-replicating mines* (DS9 what up?), and they are called on at times when Military strikes from an Agressive Power who are against the Federation.

They are their de facto Military. As well as a peacekeeping exploration diplomat force.

By that definition, half of the American population are "military".

For me, it hinges on the aims of the organisation - to explore strange new worlds, to seek out life. Explorers are armed but not all of them seek to invade.

Saelune already summed up my thoughts, but I thought it was rude to ignore you. No malice between us and all, just differing opinions. So no reason not to be civil.

Half of America's population are not trained by the state, obliged by the state to do acts of aggression or defense at the behest of the state, and definitely not supplied by the state to act in times of aggression, peacekeeping, or defense. We have the Military, the Air Force, The Naxy, and the National Guard for that.

Again, they are the Militant Peacekeeping Diplomat Explorers. They are all these things. They have a primary mission which is indeed exploration, but that doesn't mean they don't have other responsibilities. Chief of which is the militaristic defense of the Federations, it's Allies, and worlds unable to defend themselves. As well as humanization endeavors. As well as punching out Space Gods (Sisko what up?)


*And yes, I know Self replicating mines are not standard issue. But I always found the concept amusing that I wanted to shout it out.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Lets get back on track guys. Whether the Federation is a military with a science department or a science department with a military is, at best, tangential to if Orville is a good series.

 

[Hawki]

So basically a show by Seth McFarlene resorts to crass humour and apes a better show that came before it.

...people expected otherwise?

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Is it not sensible to see that trend continuing in the next few hundred years? And The Orville is set in what, 2500?

I'mma say no, it's not sensible to see that continue. That far in the future, we can't know which trends will continue and which ones won't.

Of course we can't know. No one claimed that. The whole point of sci-fi is to speculate.

 

[Saelune]

Starfleet is military. It is not a matter of opinion or discussion. Anyone who thinks Starfleet is not military never watched the show.

No they aren't, they are capable of conducting military style duties and the tenants of what we would call military command and infrastructure are present but they are not military. And you're right it isn't a matter of opinion, the show itself, the movies and the creator of the entire concept have ALL stated time and again that Starfleet IS NOT military.

As for The Orville, not sure yet. The trailers for the show showed us the best jokes so their wasn't anything new in the show that struck me as being that funny. It's clear that the show is very much aping Star Trek, the great big fanfare music the long sweeping shots of the ship (no bad thing right enough) the ship is actually quite good looking certainly better than Kelvin Enterprise and STD's Discovery. The big concern just now is that the character base (the bridge crew) is a bit too small and the characters aren't interesting enough to hold contained episode about them, you know like TNG would have an entire episode about Data and Geordie. I am also wondering if he is going to try and build a living universe or weathger we will just have a planet of the week, scenario of the week, that we will never ever hear about again or if their will be a more overarcing story going on, besides his issues with his former wife.

On the flipside the Alien lifeforms were pretty good and a decent mix of non human vs human like aliens. The conclusion to the episode was actually quite original as well.

Then there is no military in Star Trek's Federation cause every war and every battle that faced Earth since the Federation was fought by Starfleet.

 

[Queen Michael]

Is it not sensible to see that trend continuing in the next few hundred years? And The Orville is set in what, 2500?

I'mma say no, it's not sensible to see that continue. That far in the future, we can't know which trends will continue and which ones won't.

Of course we can't know. No one claimed that. The whole point of sci-fi is to speculate.

Yeah, but almost 500 years into the future it's not sensible to guess that our trends will continue.

 

[KaraFang]

Then there is no military in Star Trek's Federation cause every war and every battle that faced Earth since the Federation was fought by Starfleet.

As a pretty big Star Trek fan I think this is the most accurate thing to say.

The discovery of intelligent life, warp drive and the founding of the federation meant that the concept of military, navy, and NASA all become outmoded. You need a single agency that incorporates:

Defence, science, and diplomacy.

So, they come up with a new overarching agency replacing the previous ones: Starfleet.

I always liked to think that whenever any Federation Starfleet officer says they are "not military" they are avoiding using that word due to the connotations of "aggressive attack" a la the "klingon Empires Military" or "The Romulan Star Empire Navy"

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

Then there is no military in Star Trek's Federation cause every war and every battle that faced Earth since the Federation was fought by Starfleet.

As a pretty big Star Trek fan I think this is the most accurate thing to say.

The discovery of intelligent life, warp drive and the founding of the federation meant that the concept of military, navy, and NASA all become outmoded. You need a single agency that incorporates:

Defence, science, and diplomacy.

So, they come up with a new overarching agency replacing the previous ones: Starfleet.

I always liked to think that whenever any Federation Starfleet officer says they are "not military" they are avoiding using that word due to the connotations of "aggressive attack" a la the "klingon Empires Military" or "The Romulan Star Empire Navy"

Yes, all this. A good Starfleet officer doesn't see him or herself as a soldier, not primarily, but serving in Starfleet does sometimes require dispensing the duties of a soldier.

Starfleet clearly came about as an evolution of the Navy. The ranks are similar, the hierarchy is similar, the discipline is similar. I suppose they actually more closely resemble a police force in practice, but they are a descendant of the by then antiquated form of our traditional military.

 

[Laughing Man]

Starfleet is military. It is not a matter of opinion or discussion. Anyone who thinks Starfleet is not military never watched the show.

No they aren't, they are capable of conducting military style duties and the tenants of what we would call military command and infrastructure are present but they are not military. And you're right it isn't a matter of opinion, the show itself, the movies and the creator of the entire concept have ALL stated time and again that Starfleet IS NOT military.

Does it matter what people call themselves? The Rebels in Star Wars call themselves freedom fighters. The Empire calls them Terrorists. Who is right? Well, "Right" depends on your affliction.

In that context it you're right, but let me restate this, Gene Roddenbury the guy who came up with Star Trek said that Starfleet is not a military organisation. It's not a case of YOUR interpretation of what is shown on the shows / movies or how the characters and individuals in the show put themselves across, this is the guy who came up with the series flat out telling us that they are not a military organisation. It's quite simple their isn't any grounds to argue about it.

 

[Major_Tom]

In that context it you're right, but let me restate this, Gene Roddenbury the guy who came up with Star Trek said that Starfleet is not a military organisation. It's not a case of YOUR interpretation of what is shown on the shows / movies or how the characters and individuals in the show put themselves across, this is the guy who came up with the series flat out telling us that they are not a military organisation. It's quite simple their isn't any grounds to argue about it.

Roddenberry claimed that Starfleet was not a military organization but something akin to the Coast Guard. USCG is a branch of the military.

Yes, all this. A good Starfleet officer doesn't see him or herself as a soldier, not primarily, but serving in Starfleet does sometimes require dispensing the duties of a soldier.

O'Brien certainly saw himself as a soldier. He has been in 235 combat situations and has been decorated 15 times. That's pretty impressive for a soldier, let alone someone who isn't a part of a military organisation.

I always liked to think that whenever any Federation Starfleet officer says they are "not military" they are avoiding using that word due to the connotations of "aggressive attack" a la the "klingon Empires Military" or "The Romulan Star Empire Navy"

To me, that sounds like calling waterboarding "enhanced interrogation technique" instead of torture. Starfleet fulfills the the same role as those two organisations regardless of their perceived aggressiveness. Is Swiss Army not a military just because they stay out of conflicts in other countries?

Oh, and I forgot to say that there is only one series in which "Starfleet is not military" would fly and that's Enterprise. There already is United Earth Military (of which MACO is a branch) and Starfleet really feels like future NASA or something.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

Yes, all this. A good Starfleet officer doesn't see him or herself as a soldier, not primarily, but serving in Starfleet does sometimes require dispensing the duties of a soldier.

O'Brien certainly saw himself as a soldier. He has been in 235 combat situations and has been decorated 15 times. That's pretty impressive for a soldier, let alone someone who isn't a part of a military organisation.

Well first of all, O'Brien was a non-comm, so technically he isn't an officer in the same vein as Picard or Sisko or most of the other main characters.

Secondly, I said that a good officer doesn't feel like a soldier first , and an explorer second. O'Brien certainly wasn't thrilled about the battles he'd fought and the people he'd killed. He just wanted to be an engineer and fix things, help out his comrades in their exploratory and diplomatic missions.

And third, I think we're on the same side of this argument anyway. Starfleet may not think of itself as a military organization, but the reality of galactic politics forces them to be exactly that, just as it forced O'Brien to be a soldier and Sisko to be a general.

 

[Laughing Man]

In that context it you're right, but let me restate this, Gene Roddenbury the guy who came up with Star Trek said that Starfleet is not a military organisation. It's not a case of YOUR interpretation of what is shown on the shows / movies or how the characters and individuals in the show put themselves across, this is the guy who came up with the series flat out telling us that they are not a military organisation. It's quite simple their isn't any grounds to argue about it.

Roddenberry claimed that Starfleet was not a military organization but something akin to the Coast Guard. USCG is a branch of the military.So the creator of the show flat out says a statement that which ever way you twist and turn it cannot be mistaken for anything other than NOT MILITARY but because he compares it to an organisation that any number of people could mistakenly, and no doubt in this instance Roddenbury himself it would seem, mistake for not being military, bam we have proof that Starfleet is military... well I am convinced. Besides the coast guard is not classed as part of the military in all countries anyway so it seems he may well have been mistaken.

I am sorry I am really failing to understand why people are still trying to say that it is military, the f*cking creator of the show said it wasn't END OF DEBATE.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Is it not sensible to see that trend continuing in the next few hundred years? And The Orville is set in what, 2500?

I'mma say no, it's not sensible to see that continue. That far in the future, we can't know which trends will continue and which ones won't.

Of course we can't know. No one claimed that. The whole point of sci-fi is to speculate.

Yeah, but almost 500 years into the future it's not sensible to guess that our trends will continue.

Yeah it is. It's more sensible than to guess that they will reverse or stop trending. You have to guess something.

 

[Major_Tom]

So the creator of the show flat out says a statement that which ever way you twist and turn it cannot be mistaken for anything other than NOT MILITARY but because he compares it to an organisation that any number of people could mistakenly, and no doubt in this instance Roddenbury himself it would seem, mistake for not being military, bam we have proof that Starfleet is military... well I am convinced. Besides the coast guard is not classed as part of the military in all countries anyway so it seems he may well have been mistaken.

I am sorry I am really failing to understand why people are still trying to say that it is military, the f*cking creator of the show said it wasn't END OF DEBATE.

If he was mistaken about the USCG, he could've been mistaken about the Starfleet too. Maybe being a combat pilot during WWII colored his perception of the military and he didn't realize there was more to it than dropping bombs on other countries (he flew the B-17). I don't know, I didn't know him, but either way he was demonstrably wrong. Starfleet is military. Except in Enterprise.

Also, if you're going to cite the man as authority, at least get his name right.

Secondly, I said that a good officer doesn't feel like a soldier first , and an explorer second. O'Brien certainly wasn't thrilled about the battles he'd fought and the people he'd killed. He just wanted to be an engineer and fix things, help out his comrades in their exploratory and diplomatic missions.

And third, I think we're on the same side of this argument anyway. Starfleet may not think of itself as a military organization, but the reality of galactic politics forces them to be exactly that, just as it forced O'Brien to be a soldier and Sisko to be a general.

Yeah, your're right. But that's true even in modern militaries, isn't it? Most people aren't thrilled about the battles they've fought and the people they've killed. Many servicemen and women are engineers, doctors, technicians, scientists, etc. first and soldiers second. People don't join the military because they're bloodthirsty murderers, that's insulting.

I think people who claim that "Starfleet isn't military" and that "it must be something more" have a very medieval view of military, like Saelune said. Sure, there is more emphasis on exploration and diplomacy in Starfleet but that's just the product of circumstances and in essence it's still a military organisation which is proven every time there's a war. And there have been plenty of wars even in TOS which makes the "but Roddenberry said" excuse void. Let's call a duck a duck.

 

[tippy2k2]

snippity

snappity

snop

snipped some more

Note: I don't know if this is everyone derailing or heck, I may have accidentally quoted people not derailing but I'm pretty sure everyone is talking Star Trek's Federation thingy or whatever rather than the show this thread is supposed to be about in these quotes but this goes for everyone in this thread.

The OP asked nicely at the end of page 1 to drop the discussion over Starfleet and what kind of Military it is or whatever you guys are talking about and get back on track to talking about The Orville. I'm also going to ask everyone nicely to do it so please don't make me have to do it again. Create a new thread about Star Trek's military and overarching sybolism if you guys want to talk Star Trek's military and overarching symbolism.