The popularity of Twilight and the disturbing implications herein

[Eldritch Warlord]

Oh, the book. I thought you were talking about the recurring "shadow world" theme in Nintendo games from the thread title.

Yeah, one of my friends (a girl, obviously) convinced me to read that. As a fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer it seemed like a good match for me.

To say the least I found it a good read, it's rather well written and has a decent plot. I sort of had this interpretation that the girl (can't remember her name) was hyperemotional, by which I mean physically inflicted by strong emotion and easily having strong emotion.

Although most of the good stuff seems to be exceptional frosting on a stale cake, the cake of exagerated romance.

 

[Apocalypse Tank]

I am NOT reading this book

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

Drooling over pixels, then a robot, and now hypersensitive. *Shrugs* No I don't see why I would have any questions.

Since I assumed you were a human, not a robot, I'd say I was at least two-for-three, and probably better.

All right, look. My first post on this thread wasn't directed exclusively at you, but at everyone who's foolish enough to get upset about some silly vampire books for girls. I came on too aggressively, and I'm sorry. I was annoyed at the obvious double standard ("it's okay for boys to have messed-up fantasies, but when girls do it, that's icky"), but that's no excuse. It was the wrong way to go about it.

Everyone's fantasy life looks bizarre to others. Yours and mine included. I don't need to know anything about you (other than the fact that you're not a robot) to know this. We've all had crushes on fictional characters from books, games, TV, movies, comics or other places. If you haven't actually drooled over Lara or Ivy or whoever, you've had fantasies that are just as repulsive to someone.

We all live in the same glass house. I'm just saying that it's a dumb idea to throw stones. Though I did say it rather more obnoxiously than was strictly necessary.

I will say I loved The Princess Bride as well though.

Well, at least we can agree on something.

I really don't feel good about upsetting you. I get worked up about dumb stuff sometimes too, and I count on my friends to call bullshit on me when I do. I hope there are no hard feelings.

No worries. I wasn't upset so much as wishing to see you use that intelligence you display into a more leveled response like this one.

I've spent the last three pages trying to clarify that I'm aiming for the bigger picture of how romance is perceived in modern society and it's definitely my fault for not being clear in the first place. This certainly goes for both genders but since Twilight is the example at hand I have a focus going towards the female gender. It's not so much as them having a crush on a character but what that could represent. Do you know what I'm saying?

I have ZERO problem with you disagreeing. In fact I welcome the debate. It's just taking me a while to get everyone there.

 

[Grindstone]

You're seriously telling me that guys on this forum enjoyed Twilight.

Well, my respect for this place just plummeted.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I just saw one of my friend's friend hand that to my friend. I MUST WARN HIM!

 

[LewsTherin]

I will say I loved The Princess Bride as well though.

As did every cultured, charismatic, witty individual with a sense of humour and overpowering intellect. oh, and modest to a fault ;p.

On second thought, I just might have to read it just to get more ammunition for it's mockery.

 

[Razzle Bathbone]

I've spent the last three pages trying to clarify that I'm aiming for the bigger picture of how romance is perceived in modern society and it's definitely my fault for not being clear in the first place. This certainly goes for both genders but since Twilight is the example at hand I have a focus going towards the female gender. It's not so much as them having a crush on a character but what that could represent. Do you know what I'm saying?

Okay, here's a question then. You say you have a problem with the way romance is perceived in modern society. Certainly there are plenty of things to object to there. But my question is this: when exactly do you think romance was perceived any differently? And how was it ever any better than this? I don't mean this rhetorically; I want to get an idea of where you're coming from here. We can all see the ugliness in contemporary romantic ideals. What I want to know is how you think they're any worse than the ideals of any other time.

Is it only because these contemporary ideals have recently been rubbed into your nose by way of supernatural romance novels for tween girls?

I have ZERO problem with you disagreeing. In fact I welcome the debate. It's just taking me a while to get everyone there.

Better late than never though, right?

 

[McNinja]

When I saw the trailer for the movie it took me a second to realize there were vampires in it. But when i realized that it seemed better because i had no idea what the book was about, so i figured it couldn't be all bad.
then i read the review that was posted.
and then i read that the vampires sparkled. WHAT THE @#^$?

It would be ok if they sparkled in the sunlight because the blood of the person they had just RIPPED TO SHREDS was on them, but this is freakin retarded.
To me, the vampire folklore is punched in the face by these pretty boy "vampires." Weren't vampires supposed to be undead demons that feasted on the blood of the living? Something of what Dracula looked like in Van Heslsing? Who were inherently evil and killed simply for the lulz?
This book feels like the writer couldn't think up a superhero so instead she made vampires as "good" as possible because vampires are badass and teenage girls like badass guys who will be perfect for the next twelve centuries because they sparkle in the fkin sun.

Oh well. much to my newfound dismay i shall be in the movie theater on nov. 21 watching the movie with my friends.

 

[Eyclonus]

I guess the major question with this books is why the fuck do these vampires sparkle in sunlight?

There meant to fizzle in sunlight, not sparkle like a sequined jacket on a cheap prostitute.

EDIT: Can anyone think of a good(as in quality) vampire narrative where the vampires can tolerate sunlight? Exclusions are Blood the Last Vampire, Young Dracula (English children's tv series I like for some odd reason), Queen of the Damned film and the Watch series.

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

Okay, here's a question then. You say you have a problem with the way romance is perceived in modern society. Certainly there are plenty of things to object to there. But my question is this: when exactly do you think romance was perceived any differently? And how was it ever any better than this? I don't mean this rhetorically; I want to get an idea of where you're coming from here. We can all see the ugliness in contemporary romantic ideals. What I want to know is how you think they're any worse than the ideals of any other time.

Is it only because these contemporary ideals have recently been rubbed into your nose by way of supernatural romance novels for tween girls?

I don't know how a nineteen year old could confidently tell you of an era in which romance was pure. The anthem, "Chivalry is dead" is rather telling as those who invented the concept of chivalry also had a game called courting. So you may be storming up an excellent counter-argument in that area.

However you say that we can all see the ugliness in contemporary romantic ideals. So are you disputing that Twilight is seen as a romance novel? And would you also dispute some Twilight fans think that what Bella and Edward is an actual according-to-Hoyle love and possibly build expectations upon that? And finally if so do you think that is...*Looks at thread title* a disturbing implication of Twilight's popularity?

 

[Razzle Bathbone]

However you say that we can all see the ugliness in contemporary romantic ideals. So are you disputing that Twilight is seen as a romance novel? And would you also dispute some Twilight fans think that what Bella and Edward is an actual according-to-Hoyle love and possibly build expectations upon that? And finally if so do you think that is...*Looks at thread title* a dangerous implication of Twilight's popularity?

I can't really say anything authoritative about Twilight, since I haven't read it. Based upon what others seem to be saying, it does sound an awful lot like a romance series with supernatural adventure elements. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I can tell.

I have no doubt that some Twilight fans think the characters have a truly beautiful relationship. I am equally confident that lots of boys think every girl should dress like this. Is either one of these things a sign of the impending apocalypse? I doubt it. Lots of people have unrealistic fantasies. That's what's great about fantasy worlds. They can be anything you want, with no responsibility and no consequences. In our fantasies we are both free and safe.

Building expectations on the basis of fantasy can cause problems, but these problems are largely self-correcting. If you fantasize about the ability to walk through walls, and use these fantasies to form expectations about the real world, this will remain problematic for you only so long as you don't actually try to do it. At the moment you try to make your fantasy a reality, you will abruptly come to realize the error of your ways. So will it be for those who form unrealistic expectations of romance in their fantasy lives.

But that's not the only possible outcome. In some lucky cases, more than I think you suspect, they may devise fantasies that actually improve the quality of their real lives. Suppose you fantasize about, say, Wonder Woman. She's this beautiful goddess of truth and justice who ties people up to make them do what she wants. But she never hurts them, she only tries to make them do good things. If this fantasy takes hold of your imagination as a child, you may eventually discover that you enjoy bondage and domination, and if you can find someone who shares your kink, your sex life and romantic relationships could be expanded into new and richly fulfilling territory. (The preceding example was completely hypothetical and not the slightest bit taken from Razzle Bathbone's childhood and post-pubescent awakenings. Honest.)

Which is all a long-winded way of saying that exploring fantasies can be very healthy and rewarding. The ability to fantasize is arguably the greatest gift possessed by any human being. Does it have dangerous implications? Sure. is it worth the risk? Absolutely.

 

[Eyclonus]

I don't know how a nineteen year old could confidently tell you of an era in which romance was pure. The anthem, "Chivalry is dead" is rather telling as those who invented the concept of chivalry also had a game called courting. So you may be storming up an excellent counter-argument in that area.

Most of those people who played the games of courting and chivalry also played other fun games, like oppress the peasantry, brand the jew on face, and humanity's all time favourite; Emasculating War powered by Religious biggotry.

 

[fulano]

Hasn't anyone considered the fact that vampires sparkle may be because they have extremely greasy skin with pecks of dust on top that bounces light off of them?

It may be a longshot(a looooooooong one) but at least it makes sense.

On second thought, those vampires must be smelly too...

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

I don't know how a nineteen year old could confidently tell you of an era in which romance was pure. The anthem, "Chivalry is dead" is rather telling as those who invented the concept of chivalry also had a game called courting. So you may be storming up an excellent counter-argument in that area.

Most of those people who played the games of courting and chivalry also played other fun games, like oppress the peasantry, brand the jew on face, and humanity's all time favourite; Emasculating War powered by Religious biggotry.

...Maybe I should have made it more clear that courting WASN'T good? We're on the same page.

 

[Razzle Bathbone]

...Maybe I should have made it more clear that courting WASN'T good? We're on the same page.

The internet is a treacherous medium. I couldn't quite be sure of your intentions with that paragraph either.

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

However you say that we can all see the ugliness in contemporary romantic ideals. So are you disputing that Twilight is seen as a romance novel? And would you also dispute some Twilight fans think that what Bella and Edward is an actual according-to-Hoyle love and possibly build expectations upon that? And finally if so do you think that is...*Looks at thread title* a dangerous implication of Twilight's popularity?

I can't really say anything authoritative about Twilight, since I haven't read it. Based upon what others seem to be saying, it does sound an awful lot like a romance series with supernatural adventure elements. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I can tell.

I have no doubt that some Twilight fans think the characters have a truly beautiful relationship. I am equally confident that lots of boys think every girl should dress like this. Is either one of these things a sign of the impending apocalypse? I doubt it. Lots of people have unrealistic fantasies. That's what's great about fantasy worlds. They can be anything you want, with no responsibility and no consequences. In our fantasies we are both free and safe.

Building expectations on the basis of fantasy can cause problems, but these problems are largely self-correcting. If you fantasize about the ability to walk through walls, and use these fantasies to form expectations about the real world, this will remain problematic for you only so long as you don't actually try to do it. At the moment you try to make your fantasy a reality, you will abruptly come to realize the error of your ways. So will it be for those who form unrealistic expectations of romance in their fantasy lives.

But that's not the only possible outcome. In some lucky cases, more than I think you suspect, they may devise fantasies that actually improve the quality of their real lives. Suppose you fantasize about, say, Wonder Woman. She's this beautiful goddess of truth and justice who ties people up to make them do what she wants. But she never hurts them, she only tries to make them do good things. If this fantasy takes hold of your imagination as a child, you may eventually discover that you enjoy bondage and domination, and if you can find someone who shares your kink, your sex life and romantic relationships could be expanded into new and richly fulfilling territory. (The preceding example was completely hypothetical and not the slightest bit taken from Razzle Bathbone's childhood and post-pubescent awakenings. Honest.)

Which is all a long-winded way of saying that exploring fantasies can be very healthy and rewarding. The ability to fantasize is arguably the greatest gift possessed by any human being. Does it have dangerous implications? Sure. is it worth the risk? Absolutely.

Ha! Well I never meant that getting ideals of love from Twilight would bring on the apocalypse and again I don't wish to exclude boys from drawing unrealistic/inaccurate conclusions towards the opposite sex.

But on the flip side what of those who don't learn? What if they think being as controlling as Edward is how relationships are supposed to be? I have read the first Twilight book and according to people who have gone through the series he never arcs nor do they ever act like he should. Admittedly it's unfair that I haven't read it myself but I can't say I'm THAT devoted to this cause.

Sparkly vampires for Godtopus sake.

Perhaps I just don't get it as I never had a sexual attraction to fictional characters. I do understand your argument though.

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

...Maybe I should have made it more clear that courting WASN'T good? We're on the same page.

The internet is a treacherous medium. I couldn't quite be sure of your intentions with that paragraph either.

Blaah. I'm taking classes. I'll get the hang of this...clarity thing.

 

[Razzle Bathbone]

But on the flip side what of those who don't learn? What if they think being as controlling as Edward is how relationships are supposed to be? I have read the first Twilight book and according to people who have gone through the series he never arcs nor do they ever act like he should. Admittedly it's unfair that I haven't read it myself but I can't say I'm THAT devoted to this cause.

Tell me more about your concerns. How exactly do you think the girls who are influenced by this book will hurt themselves (or other people) because of the fantasies they developed from reading it?

Sparkly vampires for Godtopus sake.

Okay, here's something else that confuses me. Why all the fussing about the sparkly thing? Vampires aren't real. It's not possible to get them right or wrong. In Chinese folklore, vampires are always hopping around and shit. Hopping vampires might seem silly to us, but that doesn't mean it's wrong, because there are no vampires in the real world. Vampires live in fantasyland, where they could just as easily subsist on puppy dogs and ice cream and the poems of Leondard Nimoy. Who cares if it cleaves to some other version of the mythology? It's all arbitrary anyway.

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

But on the flip side what of those who don't learn? What if they think being as controlling as Edward is how relationships are supposed to be? I have read the first Twilight book and according to people who have gone through the series he never arcs nor do they ever act like he should. Admittedly it's unfair that I haven't read it myself but I can't say I'm THAT devoted to this cause.

Tell me more about your concerns. How exactly do you think the girls who are influenced by this book will hurt themselves (or other people) because of the fantasies they developed from reading it?

Sparkly vampires for Godtopus sake.

Okay, here's something else that confuses me. Why all the fussing about the sparkly thing? Vampires aren't real. It's not possible to get them right or wrong. In Chinese folklore, vampires are always hopping around and shit. Hopping vampires might seem silly to us, but that doesn't mean it's wrong, because there are no vampires in the real world. Vampires live in fantasyland, where they could just as easily subsist on puppy dogs and ice cream and the poems of Leondard Nimoy. Who cares if it cleaves to some other version of the mythology? It's all arbitrary anyway.

Okay. At several points throughout the series Bella has an actual independent thought. Trust me. This is a rarity. What does Edward do? He uses his superior vampire strength to enforce what he thinks is best for her.

Bella befriends another guy? What does Edward do. He freaks out. He'll watch her at night as she sleeps and constantly tell her how he is dangerous.

Now do I have a problem with this? Not so much. It's a book. I had the option to not read it. Not even the issue at hand as far as I'm concerned.

It's when people begin to think that this is something to strive for in a partner that I worry in some scenario girls will think it's okay to be in a controlling/borderline-abusive relationship. The way things pan out in the series I don't think Meyers is even aware of what a dick of a character she wrote with Edward Cullen.

It's a possibility I don't give humanity enough credit though.

And the sparkly vampires thing was kind of a joke. Although it does come off like it's a slow-motion cam, gentle breeze, and a looping of, "Dream Weaver" away from exposing how this is what Meyers believes to be perfection.

 

[Razzle Bathbone]

Okay. At several points throughout the series Bella has an actual independent thought. Trust me. This is a rarity. What does Edward do? He uses his superior vampire strength to enforce what he thinks is best for her.

Could you give me an example? I realize this would probably be a lot easier if I had actually read this stuff, but part of the reason you started this thread was to prevent people from doing that, so I'll honour your wishes at least to that extent.

Bella befriends another guy? What does Edward do. He freaks out. He'll watch her at night as she sleeps and constantly tell her how he is dangerous.

Is Edward right about this guy? Is he actually dangerous, or is Edward just doing it out of paranoia and possessiveness?

Now do I have a problem with this? Not so much. It's a book. I had the option to not read it. Not even the issue at hand as far as I'm concerned.

It's when people begin to think that this is something to strive for in a partner that I worry in some scenario girls will think it's okay to be in a controlling/borderline-abusive relationship. The way things pan out in the series I don't think Meyers is even aware of what a dick of a character she wrote with Edward Cullen.

It's a possibility I don't give humanity enough credit though.

I expect that like the walking-through-walls thing, this problem will be self-correcting. When those girls get into relationships with controlling possessive jerks, they'll discover first-hand how unromantic it really is. We all need to make mistakes like that. The world seldom conforms to our wishes. But it can still be fun to dream about a world where things are better, even impossibly better.

Consider too that most young girls these days in North America lead very, very sheltered lives. They're not allowed to go outside and play, they're not allowed to do anything unsupervised. They're constantly controlled, and I imagine they often resent that. Isn't it logical that they might fantasize about being controlled by someone who's more exciting and attractive than mommy or (paging Dr. Freud) daddy?