The Problem with Piracy...

Kubanator

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grayjo said:
The problem is your "thus scam thus theft". Say I trick/scam you into buying into a sucky timeshare... I misrepresented that deal and I wronged you. I didn't steal your money. You consented to give it to me. Scamming is not theft. Theft isn't some broad description that covers anything were someone is cheated out of something. Theft is the physical removal of something that wasn't yours. Let me put it another way...
Fine I retract my use of the word scam. It appeared to confuse you. You're using it in different context than I did. For you, a scam is a deal where one side misrepresents their position as more valuable. In mine, it's simply an unfair deal. In piracy, You gain a product while the developers gain nothing. You did not misrepresent your position. There was no trickery. You knew that there was a price for the software and you stole it anyways. You purposefully took the unfair deal against the developers.
grayjo said:
I sell you a paper aeroplane for $1. Your friend imitates the design and makes his own paper aeroplane. Did he steal $1 form me?
You don't own the design of your paper airplane. You didn't create any sort of design, the work came out of the physical folding of the paper. The friend does the exact same work and thus earns the same reward. Please stop misusing metaphors.
 

Flying-Emu

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Gilbert Munch said:
one you have the means to free stuff, it is impossible to justify buying it.
Yeah, you lost me.

So, because I have the ability to steal the apple, I should steal the apple. That's your argument? Sounds like an incredibly anarchical and chaotic system of economics and morality. The fact is, you don't need evidence to back up piracy. It's a simple question of what constitutes theft. Let's look at the Merriam-Webster definition.

Merriam Webster Online {Sourced Below} said:
1. the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.
Therefore, for clarification, we will define "stealing"

Merriam Webster Online {Sourced Below} said:
1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.
3. to take, get, or win insidiously, surreptitiously, subtly, or by chance: He stole my girlfriend.
Therefore, stealing is the taking of property, ideas/words (plagiarism), or credit without permission, right, or compensation. We can then move on to say that "piracy" (or the downloading of digital files without payment of some sort when those files are available for purchase in some other way) is akin to theft in that property, ideas/words, or credit are taken without permission, right, or compensation.

One cannot argue that you have the right to this material simply because you can get it for free. I can murder a man and it will cost me nothing but the dry-cleaning to get the bloodstains out. Does that make it right? No. Your argument is flawed in that it assumes rights and privileges that you simply do not have, and likely never will. You do not have the right to it because it exists.

To precipitate the people who will say "I only use it for demos!" I have this to say to you; if a company does not desire to release a demo for a game, then it is not your right to say "I get the full game of this and play it as a demo NAO." Granted, it is not good business sense for a company to refuse potential customers a demo of their product. But you do not get to make the business decisions for GameX. If you try to say that you do have the right to, then you are infringing on the rights of the owner/CEO of GameX to operate his company however he wills. The only "right" (and I use the term lightly) you have is to not purchase the product. It's Economics 101. If you don't like something about a product, you don't buy it. That includes it lacking a demo.

Gilbert Munch said:
Note:No-one on their high horses, saying how it's me who is ruining the world. Unless you have evidence to back up your claim, I will remove your comment from my reality and substitute my own.
Can I use ridiculously unfounded and nearly irrelevant "evidence"? Will that make you listen to me? You're being an idiot by saying "My logic is superior to that of the 'high-horsers', and thus thou art not allowed to express thy opinion in my thread" because you, essentially, block off the anti-piracy debate and stagnate it. That's all the piracy debate is; a question of morality in relation to rights and privileges related to private industry.

Oh, and my evidence is founded. You know, in the English language and an elementary grasp of home economics.

Definition of Theft [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theft]

Definition of Steal [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/steal]

I won't pretend to think that you'll care about my opinion. Most of the pro-piracy people seem to be closed off to discussion and debate. I beg of you, be the difference.

*EDIT*

In response to Samurai Goomba's comment about "Legit copies are hard to obtain"

That is a bit of a gray area. While it is indeed unfortunate that you can't obtain a "legitimate" copy of a game in wherever you are, that doesn't mean you have the right (legally or morally) to take it for free. I mean, I can't buy breadfruit in Seattle easily, but that doesn't mean I should go out and steal it.
 

Flying-Emu

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grayjo said:
Piracy isn't stealing... it is making an identical copy without paying the original owner.

Just say you invent a machine that can make duplicates of objects. You test it on your buddy's porche, and keep the second porche. Have you just stolen a porche?

edit: Not saying piracy isn't wrong... it's just not theft.
Your line of reason is that since its a copy, I shouldn't have to pay. A writer prints thousands of copies of a book. Should you steal it just because there are plenty more to go around and it can be infinitely reprinted?
 

Kubanator

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grayjo said:
Piracy isn't stealing... it is making an identical copy without paying the original owner.

Just say you invent a machine that can make duplicates of objects. You test it on your buddy's porche, and keep the second porche. Have you just stolen a porche?

edit: Not saying piracy isn't wrong... it's just not theft.
You stole the labour that went into the engineering of the car. You stole the ideas of whoever created them. If things went like this, no inventor would ever be rewarded, and thus, science would never progress.
 

grayjo

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Kubanator said:
grayjo said:
The problem is your "thus scam thus theft". Say I trick/scam you into buying into a sucky timeshare... I misrepresented that deal and I wronged you. I didn't steal your money. You consented to give it to me. Scamming is not theft. Theft isn't some broad description that covers anything were someone is cheated out of something. Theft is the physical removal of something that wasn't yours. Let me put it another way...
Fine I retract my use of the word scam. It appeared to confuse you. You're using it in different context than I did. For you, a scam is a deal where one side misrepresents their position as more valuable. In mine, it's simply an unfair deal. In piracy, You gain a product while the developers gain nothing. You did not misrepresent your position. There was no trickery. You knew that there was a price for the software and you stole it anyways. You purposefully took the unfair deal against the developers.
grayjo said:
I sell you a paper aeroplane for $1. Your friend imitates the design and makes his own paper aeroplane. Did he steal $1 form me?
You don't own the design of your paper airplane. You didn't create any sort of design, the work came out of the physical folding of the paper. The friend does the exact same work and thus earns the same reward. Please stop misusing metaphors.
Why don't I own the design to the paper aeroplane I sold you? because you didn't buy it in a store?
 

Kubanator

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grayjo said:
Why don't I own the design to the paper aeroplane I sold you? because you didn't buy it in a store?
No, because you never stated that you developed the paper airplane that you sold. You simply said you folded it. Had you developed the paper airplane, you would have full right to tell my friend to stop using your work for his profits.
 

grayjo

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Kubanator said:
grayjo said:
Piracy isn't stealing... it is making an identical copy without paying the original owner.

Just say you invent a machine that can make duplicates of objects. You test it on your buddy's porche, and keep the second porche. Have you just stolen a porche?

edit: Not saying piracy isn't wrong... it's just not theft.
You stole the labour that went into the engineering of the car. You stole the ideas of whoever created them. If things went like this, no inventor would ever be rewarded, and thus, science would never progress.
Yes... but by your own aeroplane argument.. the labour that went into making the copy (using the machine) was yours... and you dismissed my ownership of the paper aeroplane design...

but still... would you prefer someone copy your car or steal it?
 

Delicious

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Argue morality all you want, but trying to charge a universal 60$ price tag for something that can copied infinitely and easily effectively creating a limitless supply and you'll get bitten on your ass. Personally I buy games for convenience, but when I do I still feel like I'm getting screwed, because in the end I shouldn't have to buy unnecessary things just because a collection of publishers and game designers can't come up with a sustainable business model.

It's kind of like if you invented dirt, then tried to charge people money for using your dirt. When it's everywhere. And you can get it 5 feet from your home. Stupid, right?
 

grayjo

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People use the words theft and steal when dealing with piracy to try and make it seem more severe... which is a pity, as piracy is severe... but I don't think taking something that doesn't belong to you is the same as taking away something from someone else.
 

z0nbie

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I use the money I earn to buy what I want ... and through my actions other people earn money to buy what they want ... It's an important cycle ...
 

Kubanator

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grayjo said:
Yes... but by your own aeroplane argument.. the labour that went into making the copy (using the machine) was yours... and you dismissed my ownership of the paper aeroplane design...

but still... would you prefer someone copy your car or steal it?
You didn't own the design because you never said you designed it. Had you designed it, you would own it. Niether. You're trying to make me justify copying by saying it's better than stealing, but really, the only difference is that one party suffers less, while the other party still enjoys the unearned benifits.

Delicious said:
Argue morality all you want, but trying to charge a universal 60$ price tag for something that can copied infinitely and easily effectively creating a limitless supply and you'll get bitten on your ass. Personally I buy games for convenience, but when I do I still feel like I'm getting screwed, because in the end I shouldn't have to buy unnecessary things just because a collection of publishers and game designers can't come up with a sustainable business model.
If you don't value it at 60$, then don't buy it. You have no right to control the price of something someone else is selling. If you feel that the game is worthless, then you have no reason to pirate it. If it is worth something, then you have no right to get it for free, so either don't buy it, or buy it.
Delicious said:
It's kind of like if you invented dirt, then tried to charge people money for using your dirt. When it's everywhere. And you can get it 5 feet from your home. Stupid, right?
If games are dirt, try to get a game without a game developer.

grayjo said:
People use the words theft and steal when dealing with piracy to try and make it seem more severe... which is a pity, as piracy is severe... but I don't think taking something that doesn't belong to you is the same as taking away something from someone else.
The only difference is in stealing, the owner and the maker suffers, while in piracy only the maker suffers. It still cripples innovation.
 

Delicious

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Kubanator said:
grayjo said:
Yes... but by your own aeroplane argument.. the labour that went into making the copy (using the machine) was yours... and you dismissed my ownership of the paper aeroplane design...

but still... would you prefer someone copy your car or steal it?
You didn't own the design because you never said you designed it. Had you designed it, you would own it. Niether. You're trying to make me justify copying by saying it's better than stealing, but really, the only difference is that one party suffers less, while the other party still enjoys the unearned benifits.

Delicious said:
Argue morality all you want, but trying to charge a universal 60$ price tag for something that can copied infinitely and easily effectively creating a limitless supply and you'll get bitten on your ass. Personally I buy games for convenience, but when I do I still feel like I'm getting screwed, because in the end I shouldn't have to buy unnecessary things just because a collection of publishers and game designers can't come up with a sustainable business model.
If you don't value it at 60$, then don't buy it. You have no right to control the price of something someone else is selling. If you feel that the game is worthless, then you have no reason to pirate it. If it is worth something, then you have no right to get it for free, so either don't buy it, or buy it.
Delicious said:
It's kind of like if you invented dirt, then tried to charge people money for using your dirt. When it's everywhere. And you can get it 5 feet from your home. Stupid, right?
If games are dirt, try to get a game without a game developer.

grayjo said:
People use the words theft and steal when dealing with piracy to try and make it seem more severe... which is a pity, as piracy is severe... but I don't think taking something that doesn't belong to you is the same as taking away something from someone else.
The only difference is in stealing, the owner and the maker suffers, while in piracy only the maker suffers. It still cripples innovation.
If I can get it for free, then yes, I can control how much it costs. Rights mean nothing if you can't enforce them. My right to pirate games (though it isn't a right I have ever exercised) is only counteracted by someone's ability to to stop me.

If you want to profit of something, you'd better make damn sure that people can't easily get the same product for free. Common sense 101 - don't depend on the morality of others.
 

Kubanator

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Delicious said:
If I can get it for free, then yes, I can control how much it costs. Rights mean nothing if you can't enforce them. My right to pirate games (though it isn't a right I have ever exercised) is only counteracted by someone's ability to to stop me.
Let's say I steal 500$ from a man's wallet. Did I have a right to do that, because he didn't stop me? Let's say I take a gun, and shoot a man on the street. I had the right to do that, because no one could stop me?
Delicious said:
If you want to profit of something, you'd better make damn sure that people can't easily get the same product for free. Common sense 101 - don't depend on the morality of others.
You're promoting DRM.
 

grayjo

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Kubanator said:
grayjo said:
Yes... but by your own aeroplane argument.. the labour that went into making the copy (using the machine) was yours... and you dismissed my ownership of the paper aeroplane design...

but still... would you prefer someone copy your car or steal it?
You didn't own the design because you never said you designed it. Had you designed it, you would own it. Niether. You're trying to make me justify copying by saying it's better than stealing, but really, the only difference is that one party suffers less, while the other party still enjoys the unearned benifits.
Yes. That is my intention. (Skimmed over my piracy is bad bits, eh...)

I don't like that the word theft is being misused. That's all. I do believe not all pirates would have bought the full version if a cracked version was available. Not every pirated game is money lost to the developer. Again, in case you missed it, piracy is wrong! But it's not as bad as if the pirates stole the games from stores. That does NOT justify it.

Here comes another metaphor... Murder isn't as bad as Genocide... Does that justify Murder?

If you can honestly tell me that the same number of people are put out the same amount from theft and piracy I will abdicate my position.

Where in any of my posts did I say you can or should pirate anything?

Or that the terminology used to describe piracy had anything to do with "innovation"
 

Kubanator

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grayjo said:
I don't like that the word theft is being misused. That's all. I do believe not all pirates would have bought the full version if a cracked version was available. Not every pirated game is money lost to the developer. Again, in case you missed it, piracy is wrong! But it's not as bad as if the pirates stole the games from stores. That does NOT justify it.

Here comes another metaphor... Murder isn't as bad as Genocide... Does that justify Murder?

If you can honestly tell me that the same number of people are put out the same amount from theft and piracy I will abdicate my position.
Ok, I misunderstood you. I assumed you would claim that since piracy is better than physical theft, piracy is good. It's true that there are less people put out by piracy, but theft can be intellectual theft, like ideas. Such as books, schematics, video games, etc.

grayjo said:
Or that the terminology used to describe piracy had anything to do with "innovation"
Piracy is the theft of information, or data. Without protection from the theft of information, innovation dies.
 

grayjo

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Kubanator said:
grayjo said:
I don't like that the word theft is being misused. That's all. I do believe not all pirates would have bought the full version if a cracked version was available. Not every pirated game is money lost to the developer. Again, in case you missed it, piracy is wrong! But it's not as bad as if the pirates stole the games from stores. That does NOT justify it.

Here comes another metaphor... Murder isn't as bad as Genocide... Does that justify Murder?

If you can honestly tell me that the same number of people are put out the same amount from theft and piracy I will abdicate my position.
Ok, I misunderstood you. I assumed you would claim that since piracy is better than physical theft, piracy is good. It's true that there are less people put out by piracy, but theft can be intellectual theft, like ideas. Such as books, schematics, video games, etc.
I'm pretty sure the theft term has slowly changed to incorporate ideas, but only because everyone used it....

Ownership of ideas is so hard to regulate, because if I have an idea today, it doesn't stop someone else having the same idea tomorrow and if they register it first, all of a sudden I've stolen my own idea.

I am also very sick of that "you wouldn't steal a car" ad
 

grayjo

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Kubanator said:
Piracy is the theft of information, or data. Without protection from the theft of information, innovation dies.
The current patent system goes a long way to stifling innovation too...
 

Kubanator

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grayjo said:
I'm pretty sure the theft term has slowly changed to incorporate ideas, but only because everyone used it....

Ownership of ideas is so hard to regulate, because if I have an idea today, it doesn't stop someone else having the same idea tomorrow and if they register it first, all of a sudden I've stolen my own idea.

I am also very sick of that "you wouldn't steal a car" ad
No, but if you went to the government saying "I invented a new electric generator, here are the detailing schematics" then you deserve rights as you were the first one to prove that you made it.
 

Delicious

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Kubanator said:
Delicious said:
If I can get it for free, then yes, I can control how much it costs. Rights mean nothing if you can't enforce them. My right to pirate games (though it isn't a right I have ever exercised) is only counteracted by someone's ability to to stop me.
Let's say I take a gun, and shoot a man on the street. I had the right to do that, because no one could stop me? Let's say I steal 500$ from a man's wallet. Did I have a right to do that, because he didn't stop me?
Delicious said:
If you want to profit of something, you'd better make damn sure that people can't easily get the same product for free. Common sense 101 - don't depend on the morality of others.
You're promoting DRM.
Up until the point where you are caught and tried, yep.

And what's wrong with ensuring people have to buy your product? Sure, the current versions of DRM are completely ineffective, but I don't think a non intrusive Copyright check is impossible. Look at subscription based games, for example. They offer a service that can't be duplicated or copied on readily available CD's and computers, and they are profiting because what they offer actually has value to it. Console games are also doing much better in the value department - they give me a way to play games without having to own a super computer, and it is currently very difficult for me to mod consoles. So I buy them.

Here's my main point: Don't try to sell me something that I can get free, easily and without consequence. I don't support idiots, and if the single-player PC part of the industry goes through - tough. That's how the world works, like it or not.