The Problem with Piracy...

[WhiteTiger225]

Yeah, but sadly pirate is a broad term encompassing many things. For example, it encompasses "I am going to download Transformers 2 2 weeks before it hits theaters!" and it also encompasses "I am going to download Daggerfall because no store sells it, and for that game plus Star Trek Armada 2 I am not going to pay 240 dollars to some fat guy in his garage when I can get it for free and not at all be stealing it because it's old to the point legitimate retailers no longer offer a means to legally obtain an unopened, trustworthy copy at a safe price"

and even encompasses "I am going to download a 1971 cult horror movie that isn't in any store and no collector will part with"

Fully aware of that, and no stranger to that particular train of notion myself. Reliable out-of-circuit games are hard to come by. It's really newer games that I get up in arms about, and Professor Layton and the Curious Village is still largely available. Unless he means The Last Time Travel, but since that is currently only in Japan he doesn't exactly qualify as the target demographic.

Old movies (I don't know which you are talking about, but for giggles I'll assume it's Werewolves on Wheels) I cannot say too much about. It seems some find their way to DVD while others get tragically overlooked.

Actually thats one I have to look up now. But for me it was "Zombie Ninja Gangbangers" XD

And yeah, new games I get in arms about. That is stealing hands down. Thats stealing from the store. In the terms of "Pirating" old, barely sold by even second hand owners games, thats like not buying a stone from a yardsale and going out to your backyard and finding one just like it. Saying someone is stealing money from those people who sell it second hand falls under that example. Because the games ToS ALWAYS states that you have bought the right to use the game, and that you have not technically "Bought the game" so therefore the second hand owner selling it really isn't suffering a loss because he didn't put any investment into the creation of the game and is not the owner of the game franchise, that would be the companies that made and produced it who have stopped marketing it.

 

[Grand_Arcana]

Simple: I want my favorite devs to be rewarded for their work. If I'm skeptical, I'll rent it.

Hypothetically, I'd only pirate on three occasions:

1: The developers aren't selling new copies.

2: The game is generally shite and not worth the investment for anything else aside from Bile Interest (like X Blades.)

3: It's a mod (speaking of which, does anyone know where I can find a PSP/PSX emulator? I want FFT 1.3.)

 

[DemonI81]

Here's the thing... Pirates have many reasons for what they do.
The OP has his reasons, which I don't agree with. Just because you can get something "free" doesn't mean you should.
There's people that I know that will download a movie with the reasoning: Movie "stars" are paid too much. There is no reason for someone to be paid millions of dollars to act. They get millions of dollars to provide 1.5-2.5 hours of entertainment. Because of this movie prices (in the theater and disc/digital) must cost more.
It is also why I buy most of my 360 games used. I feel that most devs push out games that are buggy and short, just not worth the money. I will not support these devs by buying their games new and putting money in their pockets. I buy the game used, they get no money and I get some entertainment, some irritation, and some gamerscore.
This reasoning makes sense to me. It's the reason I wont go to sports games or concerts. There's no reason for athletes and musicians to get paid the amount they do. Their salaries directly effect ticket prices.

Whether you can justify piracy to yourself or not, it isn't free, nothing is. Not only are you paying for the internet connection, but you're paying for the media to burn the movie/game to. If you get caught, you'll find yourself owing much more (fines, jail time) than you would've spent to buy the products.

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

Piracy is fine as long as it's from a big company that can afford it, eg. EA. EA make games for consoles as well as PC's and are very successful, thus can afford to have me steal a game I would never buy in the first place because I spend my money on things that I like more than EA's games. I would not, however, steal games from small companies based solely on a pc because they need the money more... Or Valve, never steal from Valve. I also pirate my music, but support the artist I really like by seeing them in concert and buying stuff at these concerts.

ea has also left a sour taste in my mouth, but i dont steel ea games, i just don't bye ea games/

-joke post- any one who steels from valve needs to be shot on site ;P

and the about the music part of your post. steeling is bad mmkay

So?

[3rd time's the charm]

so the debate in this thread is about is steeling bad or not, so is steeling bad or not, and why

No, it's not, and that's what you're not trying to understand. The discussion was on 'what do you think about my view', not a generic thread about 'Is piracy bad?'.

 

[imnotfromaroundhere]

Piracy is fine as long as it's from a big company that can afford it, eg. EA. EA make games for consoles as well as PC's and are very successful, thus can afford to have me steal a game I would never buy in the first place because I spend my money on things that I like more than EA's games. I would not, however, steal games from small companies based solely on a pc because they need the money more... Or Valve, never steal from Valve. I also pirate my music, but support the artist I really like by seeing them in concert and buying stuff at these concerts.

ea has also left a sour taste in my mouth, but i dont steel ea games, i just don't bye ea games/

-joke post- any one who steels from valve needs to be shot on site ;P

and the about the music part of your post. steeling is bad mmkay

So?

[3rd time's the charm]

so the debate in this thread is about is steeling bad or not, so is steeling bad or not, and why

No, it's not, and that's what you're not trying to understand. The discussion was on 'what do you think about my view', not a generic thread about 'Is piracy bad?'.

Well in all fairness your view is that it's okay, but such topics lead to open discussion about a more generalised topics and having one devoted to solely your opinion is a bit pretentious, don't you think?

 

[Felated Show Pony]

Philosoraptor- long time reader, first time writer. i made an account just to post on this.

according to the free market, supply and demand dictate price. when you have few of an item, and demand is high, price goes up. and the opposite way with low demand/high supply.

BUT when you have an infinite supply of an item (like an infinitely copyable file) and demand is not infinite, the item HAS NO WORTH.
It isn't like with high supply and low demand. it is an infinite supply.
Piracy just makes too much sense in a market where developers have to compete for your money.

[EDIT] Sorry, i mean Gilbert, not raptor.

 

[tofulove]

Here's the thing... Pirates have many reasons for what they do.
The OP has his reasons, which I don't agree with. Just because you can get something "free" doesn't mean you should.
There's people that I know that will download a movie with the reasoning: Movie "stars" are paid too much. There is no reason for someone to be paid millions of dollars to act. They get millions of dollars to provide 1.5-2.5 hours of entertainment. Because of this movie prices (in the theater and disc/digital) must cost more.
This reasoning makes sense to me. It's the reason I wont go to sports games or concerts. There's no reason for athletes and musicians to get paid the amount they do. Their salaries directly effect ticket prices.

Whether you can justify piracy to yourself or not, it isn't free, nothing is. Not only are you paying for the internet connection, but you're paying for the media to burn the movie/game to. If you get caught, you'll find yourself owing much more (fines, jail time) than you would've spent to buy the products.

good point, brad pit doesn't get payed a few mil to act, he gets paid a few mil to acted and make a movie worth a few hundred mill. and for me, i got to a A's game a couple times a year. now i bet ever person in the national league gets paid more a day than i make in a month. but there not getting paid to just play a sport. there getting paid to play a sport that millions of people want to pay to see. and they have to be good. no one wants to pay 100-200 dollars to see a base ball game played by regular people. as no one will want to pay to see a shitty movie, and if its a shitty movie you shouldn't want to steel it ether.

 

[Justout]

Ugh people that advocate pirating just because they do it and it's free.

It shouldn't be the company's responsibility to prevent something that's nigh impossible to prevent that's hurting their income and letting people break the law easily and conveniently.

Look at it this way. Say you designed a game, a great game, that was worth a lot of time and effort, and you can effectively sell it for 50 bucks a copy. Your audience consists of two million people that would buy it. One person buys it and torrents it. You get 50 bucks. 1,999,999 people torrent it. You lose.

How is that fair on any level?

 

[hermes]

You know, I used to be ok with piracy (not pro-piracy, as some people seem to see it as them being robin hood fighting against the system, the man, or whatever), until one of my best friends started working as a game developer.

Once you understand that games or movies are not make by a few million dollars accounts executives, but regular people that work their asses off to make a game (any game, really) and you are basically asking them to give you for free what it cost them hundreds or thousands of hours of hard work to put together, for no better reason than because you can or want it... Once you put a face to those people, you stop looking at piracy as a "no victims" crime and pirates as modern robin hoods.

 

[squid5580]

long time reader first time poster.

this is directed at the op. it seems to me you screwed opinion of what right and wrong is and what work is. it seems from your post your most likely a minor and never had to work for any thing in your life other than maybe doing common house hold choirs. the fact you think you can justify steeling because if you don't steel you have to work for it, i find that disgusting. and the fact its a ez crime to get away with its ok to do.

Thanks for joining on my behalf.

On the topic of your post: yes, I am a minor, and yes, I have had a job - working in the back of a supermarket on a weekend and holiday mornings for two years, still going. Not what you'd call back-breaking labour, but I'm sure you'll agree that were I to go into a real working environment I wouldn't last very long. And I don't think you've understood my point about 'stealing (with an a) because otherwise I'd have to work for it'. As I've said, I do make some (tiny) money, and I pay for my bus to school, part of the weekly shopping, yadda yadda. This leaves me with, say 5 pounds a week left over. This is without paying for a bus into town, food, presents for friends. And that is where my problem starts: I can't bring myself to save up for a month for a game which I know I can get for free. Criticise me all you want, but you have to accept that this is the viewpoint of me and many others.

Note: I have never pirated anything else apart from DS games. I have no torrent software on my computer, (I will allow you to check) and if you read my OP then you will understand my dilemma with DS games.

So let me ask you this. How do you think they pay you for your work every week or 2 weeks? How is your paycheck funded? By the company's money of course. So what would happen if everyone who shops there developed your mentality. I mean it isn't hard to shopift from a store. It is all right there on the shelf all one has to do is pick it up and put it in thier pocket and walk away. Now if this practice persisted what do you think will happen to you as an employee? Either you won't get your paycheck for all of your work (regardless how easy or hard) or you are going to be out of a job. Do you think that is fair or right? Are you going to say its ok I no longer have a job because hey they wanted it and it was there easily accessible for them to take?

Now if you are talking some obscure title that you will never find on a store shelf, is never being made again, and no one will be hurt by you pirating it then that is a different story.

For those who posted condoning this I have to ask. How do you justify pirating as not stealing? That is my question. Is it because you are not taking something physical or tangible? Or is it because the law hasn't caught up to technology that you can claim it isn't stealing?

 

[Felated Show Pony]

why does fairness matter? Gilbert isn't arguing morality, just stone cold logic.

 

[tofulove]

Philosoraptor- long time reader, first time writer. i made an account just to post on this.

according to the free market, supply and demand dictate price. when you have few of an item, and demand is high, price goes up. and the opposite way with low demand/high supply.

BUT when you have an infinite supply of an item (like an infinitely copyable file) and supply is not infinite, the item HAS NO WORTH.
It isn't like with high supply and low demand. it is an infinite supply.
Piracy just makes too much sense in a market where developers have to compete for your money.

[EDIT] Sorry, i mean Gilbert, not raptor.

your post makes sence other than the fact the developers time and effort are not in infinite supply. and theirs a trend of pricey that keeps going up and up. and if it keeps growing at the rate it is, developing games for pc will not be worth a developers time or resources,

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

long time reader first time poster.

this is directed at the op. it seems to me you screwed opinion of what right and wrong is and what work is. it seems from your post your most likely a minor and never had to work for any thing in your life other than maybe doing common house hold choirs. the fact you think you can justify steeling because if you don't steel you have to work for it, i find that disgusting. and the fact its a ez crime to get away with its ok to do.

Thanks for joining on my behalf.

On the topic of your post: yes, I am a minor, and yes, I have had a job - working in the back of a supermarket on a weekend and holiday mornings for two years, still going. Not what you'd call back-breaking labour, but I'm sure you'll agree that were I to go into a real working environment I wouldn't last very long. And I don't think you've understood my point about 'stealing (with an a) because otherwise I'd have to work for it'. As I've said, I do make some (tiny) money, and I pay for my bus to school, part of the weekly shopping, yadda yadda. This leaves me with, say 5 pounds a week left over. This is without paying for a bus into town, food, presents for friends. And that is where my problem starts: I can't bring myself to save up for a month for a game which I know I can get for free. Criticise me all you want, but you have to accept that this is the viewpoint of me and many others.

Note: I have never pirated anything else apart from DS games. I have no torrent software on my computer, (I will allow you to check) and if you read my OP then you will understand my dilemma with DS games.

So let me ask you this. How do you think they pay you for your work every week or 2 weeks? How is your paycheck funded? By the company's money of course. So what would happen if everyone who shops there developed your mentality. I mean it isn't hard to shopift from a store. It is all right there on the shelf all one has to do is pick it up and put it in thier pocket and walk away. Now if this practice persisted what do you think will happen to you as an employee? Either you won't get your paycheck for all of your work (regardless how easy or hard) or you are going to be out of a job. Do you think that is fair or right? Are you going to say its ok I no longer have a job because hey they wanted it and it was there easily accessible for them to take?

Now if you are talking some obscure title that you will never find on a store shelf, is never being made again, and no one will be hurt by you pirating it then that is a different story.

For those who posted condoning this I have to ask. How do you justify pirating as not stealing? That is my question. Is it because you are not taking something physical or tangible? Or is it because the law hasn't caught up to technology that you can claim it isn't stealing?

I have never once justified piracy as not stealing. Never, search through my posts on this thread: never.

And no, the sad fact is that it isn't right. And I wish I could convinve myself that effectively throwing away 25 pounds is worth it (morally, it is, logically, it isn't). And (not to make this seem like an incredibly deep topic, I know it really isn't) the arguement of morality v logic is really something that has controlled history.

Was it right to drop a bomb on Nagasaki? No. Was it logical? At the time, yes.

 

[tofulove]

why does fairness matter? Gilbert isn't arguing morality, just stone cold logic.

hes not using logic, hes making a copout to justify breaking the law. he has yet to use any logical explanation other than i don't want to work for it. and if not worth the price than he shouldn't get it. if you see a tv for sale, but you don't think its worth the price the store is selling it for, is it than ok to steel the tv. that's the logic hes using.

 

[Felated Show Pony]

when it comes to competition, people have no reason to be altruistic.
Piracy does indeed harm developers, but the appeal to a person's better nature is not compelling. Anonymous acts such as pirating are much more comfortable, and thus much more ubiquitous, than regular stealing.

 

[Felated Show Pony]

how is coping out not logical if you benefit from it? there is nothing rational about sacrificing one's interests for the greater good.

 

[hermes]

Look at it this way.
Piracy on the PC nearly killed PC gaming.

PC games generally come out much later, and are just shit ports. (with many games, but not all) And PC exclusives are becoming rare.

Why? Because it is VERY easy to steal them, that devs throw PC on the back burner.

While I agree with you that piracy almost killed PC gaming, you should know that is not the reason why many PC games are delayed or shitty ports.

Truth is, PC games development is actually harder to develop properly than consoles, because consoles are standard fixed boxes, while on PC you have to make you it works satisfactorily on different hardware and software combinations.

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

why does fairness matter? Gilbert isn't arguing morality, just stone cold logic.

hes not using logic, hes making a copout to justify breaking the law. he has yet to use any logical explanation other than i don't want to work for it. and if not worth the price than he shouldn't get it. if you see a tv for sale, but you don't think its worth the price the store is selling it for, is it than ok to steel the tv. that's the logic hes using.

Only, I have used a logical explanation. A very logical one, and I have said it numerous times already, but I'll say it again: I don't want to effectively throw away my money. There's way more to it than that, but there're my thoughts in a nutshell. Take them or leave them, but it's how I see things.

 

[tofulove]

how is coping out not logical if you benefit from it? there is nothing rational about sacrificing one's interests for the greater good.

so now were getting into the philosophical debate who is to say what is right or what is wrong.

well go ahead steel steel steel, hopeful you'll see one day the end result of your behavior, a fine bigger than any thing you have stoled, and a room with steel bars. in the end steeling is not even free, its a risk. you may get away with it, maby you get away with it for a long time, maby you'll never get caught but when if you do, you'll wish you never did. your not living in a state of anarchy were every thing goes. your living in a society based on laws laid out by the the culture you live in.

 

[Felated Show Pony]

Ok. now you can see that we're not trying to justify stealing, only explain why people do steal. Also, being a member of society is not a choice, at least at our level of legal status, so there is no reason to follow cultural norms so nonchalantly.