The Problem With Taxing the Rich

gorfias

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So... you consider 7 million jobs added "an OK job", but 6.4 million jobs added to be record-breakingly spectacular? Just trying to get all of this straight.

Well, that's the right-wing line, anyway; the line sold by the huge corporations and super-rich who benefitted by far the most from those actions.

That's nothing that could even remotely be described as "tribalised racial spoils" by any sensible person.
Again, diminishing returns.
Jobs and growing wages should be priority 1. And tax cuts and deregulation is argued to aid in this.
Example https://www.workerfreedom.org/jobs-report-trump-tax-cuts-deregulation-jobs .
ITMT: I guess I'm just a silly guy for thinking a focus on diminishing class division is infinitely more important than critical race theory.
 

Generals

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Again, diminishing returns.
Jobs and growing wages should be priority 1. And tax cuts and deregulation is argued to aid in this.
Example https://www.workerfreedom.org/jobs-report-trump-tax-cuts-deregulation-jobs .
Sure I think everyone understands the concept of diminishing returns. However the way you're comparing both (one being called "record breaking" and the other "OK") and the fact the numbers were higher in Obama's last three years just reeks of partisanship.

Additionally who says growing wages and jobs should be priority 1? The environment, affordability of healthcare, fighting against extreme poverty and so on are all very important topics for all population groups as well. Or at least they should be. And since tax cuts will usually lead to less public resources to fight against extreme poverty and deregulation often leads to environmental disasters one can easily argue Trump's policies will cause more harm than good.

ITMT: I guess I'm just a silly guy for thinking a focus on diminishing class division is infinitely more important than critical race theory.
What makes you silly is that you think Biden wants to trade "growing jobs and wages" for "critical race theory". Both can happen at the same time. You should instead look at Biden's economic and environmental policies and contrast those to Trump's economic and environmental policies.
 

gorfias

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Sure I think everyone understands the concept of diminishing returns. However the way you're comparing both (one being called "record breaking" and the other "OK") and the fact the numbers were higher in Obama's last three years just reeks of partisanship.

Additionally who says growing wages and jobs should be priority 1? The environment, affordability of healthcare, fighting against extreme poverty and so on are all very important topics for all population groups as well. Or at least they should be. And since tax cuts will usually lead to less public resources to fight against extreme poverty and deregulation often leads to environmental disasters one can easily argue Trump's policies will cause more harm than good.



What makes you silly is that you think Biden wants to trade "growing jobs and wages" for "critical race theory". Both can happen at the same time. You should instead look at Biden's economic and environmental policies and contrast those to Trump's economic and environmental policies.
Focus on jobs and wages as everything else, including a cleaner environment follows. Rich countries will tend to be much cleaner than poor authoritarian countries.
As for Biden's priorities, time will tell. I read that he sacrificed thousands of Union jobs here while pushing for funding for pipelines in Afghanistan. Not a good start to me either economics wise or environmental wise (I think the Taliban will hold pipe line execs less accountable for failures than Western powers would do for failures of a pipeline here). Here's to hoping.
 

Silvanus

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Again, diminishing returns.
Right. But you're the one trying to attribute this success solely to Trump. Whether or not the lower rate of success was down to "diminishing returns", how can you genuinely attribute it solely to Trump when the improving trend already existed before him?

Jobs and growing wages should be priority 1. And tax cuts and deregulation is argued to aid in this.
Example https://www.workerfreedom.org/jobs-report-trump-tax-cuts-deregulation-jobs .
ITMT: I guess I'm just a silly guy for thinking a focus on diminishing class division is infinitely more important than critical race theory.
Argued... by whom? Right-wing think-tanks and wealthy corporatists, primarily.

What makes you silly is the willingness to blindly support a political figure who grotesquely exacerbated class division, and then turn around and say you want to focus on diminishing class division.

Focus on jobs and wages as everything else, including a cleaner environment follows.
Funny, then, that a cleaner environment didn't follow, and Trump shredded environmental protections and funnelled money towards polluting old-world fuel sources.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Again, diminishing returns.
Jobs and growing wages should be priority 1. And tax cuts and deregulation is argued to aid in this.
And when a deregulated industry crumbles to dust under the slightest amount of stress, think of all the jobs that get created to very expensively fix the problem!
 
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gorfias

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Right. But you're the one trying to attribute this success solely to Trump. Whether or not the lower rate of success was down to "diminishing returns", how can you genuinely attribute it solely to Trump when the improving trend already existed before him?



Argued... by whom? Right-wing think-tanks and wealthy corporatists, primarily.

What makes you silly is the willingness to blindly support a political figure who grotesquely exacerbated class division, and then turn around and say you want to focus on diminishing class division.



Funny, then, that a cleaner environment didn't follow, and Trump shredded environmental protections and funnelled money towards polluting old-world fuel sources.
I don't recall ever writing that only Trump, by himself, with no one else, deserves 100% of the credit for the economy we got rather than the one they warned us about. Did Trump exacerbate class division? I thought, through rising wages and jobs, those division were closing for the first time in 50 years.

I'm betting the US is still cleaner than China, who I think EDIT (Biden) will shift jobs from the USA to China.. .where there will be that much less over-site.
 
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Generals

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I'm betting the US is still cleaner than China, who I think will shift jobs from the USA to China.. .where there will be that much less over-site.
Is it really though? Especially with all the deregulation going on in the US.
We know China pollutes more, put it is also much more populous. The real question is: does China pollute more than the US per Capita? And on that point I wouldn't be so sure...
 

meiam

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You can say the same thing about houses, and yet property taxes on real estate seem to be well within the grasp of governments.
Share and house are really different. If a company fail, your share is worthless. If your house fail, you still own the terrain (which is often more valuable than the house itself). Land mass is inherently limited in quantity while share are infinite (new share can always be issued and limitless new company can be created). Company also already pay tax on their own properties, which cut down on what share are worth and the amount of dividend they can pay. And so on.
 

gorfias

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Is it really though? Especially with all the deregulation going on in the US.
We know China pollutes more, put it is also much more populous. The real question is: does China pollute more than the US per Capita? And on that point I wouldn't be so sure...
Not sure of that one. Must be somewhere we could look for information. I have read when someone immigrates from South America to the USA, their carbon footprint tends to go up as this society uses so much more stuff than other countries per capita to the south. Reviewing.
EDIT

EDIT
Personally, I hope that COVID lock down has established something positive. We've had an information revolution and need to act like it. Remote work from home where possible. The stats in that article are 2018. I wonder what has happened this year.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Share and house are really different. If a company fail, your share is worthless. If your house fail, you still own the terrain (which is often more valuable than the house itself). Land mass is inherently limited in quantity while share are infinite (new share can always be issued and limitless new company can be created). Company also already pay tax on their own properties, which cut down on what share are worth and the amount of dividend they can pay. And so on.
and you can still say the same thing said before about houses.

edit:

also, there's an extremely easy way to resolve any problem with figuring out how much a stock is worth: allow people to just pay in shares of the stock if they don't agree with the assessed or market value.
 
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Agema

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Again, diminishing returns.
Jobs and growing wages should be priority 1. And tax cuts and deregulation is argued to aid in this.
I think, to be honest, people will be inclined to claim that the priority is whatever makes their candidate look best.

Not that long ago, Republicans were (ostensibly) horrified by the size of the national debt. With Trump deciding to send it even higher with tax cuts, their narrative was unemployment and wage growth. If Biden prioritises those as well, I absolutely bet you that they'll be fixating on the national debt again when 2024 rolls around.
 
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gorfias

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I think, to be honest, people will be inclined to claim that the priority is whatever makes their candidate look best.

Not that long ago, Republicans were (ostensibly) horrified by the size of the national debt. With Trump deciding to send it even higher with tax cuts, their narrative was unemployment and wage growth. If Biden prioritises those as well, I absolutely bet you that they'll be fixating on the national debt again when 2024 rolls around.
I try to have an open mind. I may believe that Biden stole the election and plans to betray the US as fast, often and repeatedly as he possibly can. That he will continue to hollow out the US economic base and transfer jobs to China while importing virtual slaves of "undocumented workers" to drive down the wages of any jobs left in the US. I hope I am wrong: that we will have strong economic numbers. Stock market is doing dandy though I'm advised in this forum, that isn't the whole picture. I've left the Republican party and might even vote for the guy if we see those employment and wage numbers rise.
 

Trunkage

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I try to have an open mind. I may believe that Biden stole the election and plans to betray the US as fast, often and repeatedly as he possibly can. That he will continue to hollow out the US economic base and transfer jobs to China while importing virtual slaves of "undocumented workers" to drive down the wages of any jobs left in the US. I hope I am wrong: that we will have strong economic numbers. Stock market is doing dandy though I'm advised in this forum, that isn't the whole picture. I've left the Republican party and might even vote for the guy if we see those employment and wage numbers rise.
Well, I doubt Biden will do wonders for the economy. It will be pretty middling
 

Thaluikhain

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Personally, I hope that COVID lock down has established something positive. We've had an information revolution and need to act like it. Remote work from home where possible. The stats in that article are 2018. I wonder what has happened this year.
I doubt this. A lot of good was done almost incidently because of covid, stuff that was said to be impossible just a year or two again. After covid it'll go back to being impossible again.
 

Generals

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I doubt this. A lot of good was done almost incidently because of covid, stuff that was said to be impossible just a year or two again. After covid it'll go back to being impossible again.
I wouldn't be so sure. Over here you can hear a lot of stories from big companies looking to downsize their office space because they have embraced homeworking (more). Clearly it will be (much) less widespread than now but I can imagine companies which used to allow 1-2 days will allow 2-3 days per week and those which didn't allow homeworking to allow it 1-2 days.
 
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gorfias

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I wouldn't be so sure. Over here you can hear a lot of stories from big companies looking to downsize their office space because they have embraced homeworking (more). Clearly it will be (much) less widespread than now but I can imagine companies which used to allow 1-2 days will allow 2-3 days per week and those which didn't allow homeworking to allow it 1-2 days.
Yup. Me and missus are work from home and both businesses are looking to end their leases on some of their office space for this reason. My daughter just got a new gig in an entirely different region. She will always be WFH.
 

Agema

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I try to have an open mind. I may believe that Biden stole the election and plans to betray the US as fast, often and repeatedly as he possibly can. That he will continue to hollow out the US economic base and transfer jobs to China while importing virtual slaves of "undocumented workers" to drive down the wages of any jobs left in the US. I hope I am wrong: that we will have strong economic numbers. Stock market is doing dandy though I'm advised in this forum, that isn't the whole picture. I've left the Republican party and might even vote for the guy if we see those employment and wage numbers rise.
The major concern is that the economy can't roar any more - or not like we got used to long in the past.

In the postwar era ~1945-1975, the USA had average annual GDP growth approaching 4%, with average (mean) incomes rising about 2.5% annually. But it has been slowing since 1980 and now perhaps an average of 2-2.5% annual GDP growth might be good, with wage increases correspondingly lower. Trump promised postwar-style growth from his tax cuts and fell far, far short. His stimulus was little more than a short, slight bump. Lower growth is the probably the new normal, reluctant as many may be to accept it.

Possibly, the economy simply cannot generate that postwar growth, either 1) at all (because the technological advancements that underpin it cannot be generated fast enough) or 2) without massive reforms of the economy. In the case of (2) neither Trump nor Biden nor the majority of their parties could even find the ballpark on the map in terms of contemplating those sorts of reforms. The big options on the fringes are either the progressive Green New Deal or libertarian tax and regulation bonfire.

There is no chance that Biden is going to go back to the old, cosy, US-China relationship. China is showing its teeth, overtly challenging the USA and threatening its allies. The USA must reduce its reliance on and resist China as a national security requirement. I'm sure Biden will try to soothe the current ill-will somewhat, but in reality the USA and China are at this point almost certainly fated to create stronger boundaries.
 
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gorfias

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The major concern is that the economy can't roar any more - or not like we got used to long in the past.

In the postwar era ~1945-1975, the USA had average annual GDP growth approaching 4%, with average (mean) incomes rising about 2.5% annually. But it has been slowing since 1980 and now perhaps an average of 2-2.5% annual GDP growth might be good, with wage increases correspondingly lower. Trump promised postwar-style growth from his tax cuts and fell far, far short. His stimulus was little more than a short, slight bump. Lower growth is the probably the new normal, reluctant as many may be to accept it.

Possibly, the economy simply cannot generate that postwar growth, either 1) at all (because the technological advancements that underpin it cannot be generated fast enough) or 2) without massive reforms of the economy. In the case of (2) neither Trump nor Biden nor the majority of their parties could even find the ballpark on the map in terms of contemplating those sorts of reforms. The big options on the fringes are either the progressive Green New Deal or libertarian tax and regulation bonfire.

There is no chance that Biden is going to go back to the old, cosy, US-China relationship. China is showing its teeth, overtly challenging the USA and threatening its allies. The USA must reduce its reliance on and resist China as a national security requirement. I'm sure Biden will try to soothe the current ill-will somewhat, but in reality the USA and China are at this point almost certainly fated to create stronger boundaries.
We'll see. He's still doing things like justifying slavery and genocide in China. Example:
 

Generals

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We'll see. He's still doing things like justifying slavery and genocide in China. Example:
No he's contextualizing, here he's not cut on the "right moment":

He clearly says afterwards there will be repercussions...
Also your source says this: “Joe Biden just said the Uyghur genocide is just a Chinese cultural norm and reminded Americans that China has been victimized by the West in the past These are direct CCP propaganda lines,”
Nononono, Biden said "the outer world" not "the west". You should really stop reading these extremely biased sources. And what he did is remind Americans of the Chinese Rationale behind these actions, his words clearly show he does not consider that proper justification.
Your sources are clearly trying to spin facts...
 

stroopwafel

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I think, to be honest, people will be inclined to claim that the priority is whatever makes their candidate look best.

Not that long ago, Republicans were (ostensibly) horrified by the size of the national debt. With Trump deciding to send it even higher with tax cuts, their narrative was unemployment and wage growth. If Biden prioritises those as well, I absolutely bet you that they'll be fixating on the national debt again when 2024 rolls around.
It's because of Olivier Blanchard who first outlined how governments shouldn't stare themselves blind on the national debt which have then gotten traction by former hedge fund manager Warren Mosler and his 'modern monetary theory' that theorizes the amount of debt doesn't matter only the cost of debt. Mosler also had contact with Rumsfeld. It's a school of thought that also wormed itself into the central banks since the covid crisis and one of the reasons why they are suppressing the interest rates so much.

Personally I think it's pure voodoo economics and there is a high degree of inflation already it just manifest differently than currency devaluation. There is massive inflation in property markets, the financial sector and the stock market. Sectors where all that excess money mostly ends up. Blanchard was atleast somewhat of a moderate in his views but Mosler in particular thinks countries can just go into endless debt without a problem.

I wonder who will have to pay the bill when that theory ultimately fails.