The 'Provocative Clothing' Rape Defense

[Shadowstar38]

Where a clearly visible synthetic penis.

Have it protruding from your unzipped fly.

Men get raped too though. It won't help if the rapist in question 'isn't picky'.

But what's the statistics of male on male rape outside of prison though. It must be far less than male on female.

 

[Abomination]

If the same number of people are going to get raped either way, then stop pretending your "advice" is helping anyone. My dad has never given me this advice, because he knows the only thing that can help is either a kick to the groin or pepper spray to the face. Don't even insult me with the idea that you somehow care more about me because you've managed to combine your ignorance of how stranger rape works with misplaced self-righteousness. I have explained to you three times that all the rapist needs to know is that you are a female, and you seem content to ignore that in favor of your other idea which helps no one, yet makes you feel better anyway because you can tell yourself you're doing us a service by sharing some "inconvenient truth."

So just stop. Until you know what you're talking about, just spare me.

The individual just has to be female in -every- case of rape? Not attractive, vulnerable, alone or any other potential variable? Just female? Every rapist has the EXACT same motive and desire?

It isn't the case, the cause for such things are so varied, unpredictable and immeasurable that all the advice in the world couldn't stop a rapist who just happened to have a hankering for women who wear bananas in their ears.

If the advice worked it helps the person who didn't get raped. It essentially translates to "Avoid making yourself a target".

Please don't relate your arguement to mine. I find your analogy to be a gross oversimplification of the issue.

You're going to have to explain how what I have said in any way contradicts what you have said.

Because weather predictions are 100% accurate, right?

The weather also doesn't have situations of going unreported, potential untrustworthy witnesses and all the other issues that even proving a rape took place has. If rape DID have the same measuring methods as meterology then we most certainly would have the data to make a scientific claim, but since we don't we can't.

We can hypothesize, but there's no proof that clothing never has an effect on how any rape happens.

There is also no proof that there isn't an animated garden gnome called Geoffrey who appears in my back garden on random occasions and dances a little Irish jig before tipping his hat and vanishing in a puff of smoke. Go on, prove to me that he's not real.

Yeah, that's the thing with proving a negative, it's a little bit tricky...

These straw man analogies are somewhat fun to shoot down but it's getting tiresome. There is no evidence of your garden gnome in the slightest, not even an ash trail after he disappears but a lot of evidence linking sexual arousal to types of clothing being worn, assumption of personality according to types of clothing being worn, certain individuals' belief a woman "deserved" to be raped due to the type of clothing being worn and that a majority of rapes occur when the victim was wearing clothing before being raped. The argument didn't just appear out of thin air, it is due to people considering potential causes for a rapist's choice of victim.

But maybe you do have a garden gnome who does those things. He doesn't seem to really have much affect on the rest of the world so while his mysterious existence might be interesting to investigate it will likely not be worth the time and effort due to the lack of probability of it being true.

 

[Prosis]

Yes, but the other pieces of advice that you mentioned have basis in fact. If you have a reserve of money then you can use it if you fall on hard times. Locking doors and windows presents a clear physical barrier to burglars. But there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that wearing provocative clothing leads to higher instances of rape. So that advice is more on par with advising someone to throw spilled salt over their left shoulder in order to prevent bad luck.

This actually lead to me to go digging for research articles discussing correlation between clothing and sexual assault.
There is a depressingly small amount on the matter however. A ton of opinions and polls, but very little in terms of actual research by institutions. I mean, sure, I know its a difficult thing to test for, but you think they'd figure out some way to test for it.

So, now knowing this, I'm inclined to agree with you. Until proven otherwise, it's poor advice.

 

[Lilani]

The individual just has to be female in -every- case of rape? Not attractive, vulnerable, alone or any other potential variable? Just female? Every rapist has the EXACT same motive and desire?

It isn't the case, the cause for such things are so varied, unpredictable and immeasurable that all the advice in the world couldn't stop a rapist who just happened to have a hankering for women who wear bananas in their ears.

If the advice worked it helps the person who didn't get raped. It essentially translates to "Avoid making yourself a target".

Whoa, hold on there cowboy. We were just talking about appearances. Of course vulnerability is a part of it, but that isn't what you were talking about so I didn't mention it. Hell, that's pretty much the biggest factor in stranger rape and exactly what I was getting at in the first place. Being a female walking down a dark street alone is about as vulnerable as it gets, at least as far as stranger rape goes. If you're in that situation, the rapist will strike. Doesn't matter what you're wearing. Yes certain rapists might have their "types," but I'm sure there's a rapist for every type so being unattractive isn't a guaranteed rape-prevention method either. The problem with the "avoid making yourself a target" thing is that short of dressing as a drag king there is nothing you can do to completely avoid being a target. And before you repeat yourself again, stop pretending all girls run around wearing "miniskirts that can be mistaken for belts." For God's sake, that pretty much gives you away right there that you aren't talking about real women. Just these hoards of whores you keep imagining wandering around town every day and night.

And the worst part is, you're pretending this is news to people. Avoid sketchy places while alone? Yeah, no shit. I don't need somebody to remind me of this, it's all I'm thinking about every time I'm downtown near dusk.

Let me explain something to you. When somebody gives you obvious advice--advice so obvious you're insulted they are even suggesting you didn't know it before--you suspect they have an ulterior motive. You assume that they can't seriously be giving you such obvious advice so you look for some other reason they might be giving it. Perhaps they don't think you look smart enough to know it already, or that they're making fun of you. That's the feeling I get whenever these threads boil down to "don't make yourself a target," and that is why so many people assume that by giving such advice you are trying to lay blame on the victim. Because if the advice is so obvious, then what other reason can you have for giving such advice apart from that?

That is why we're so irate with you. As a female, I've known "don't make yourself a target to strangers" from a very young age. When I was a kid it was by not talking with strangers or answering the door without an adult present, and as I became an adult it became not keeping valuable stuff like wallets sticking out of my pocket and avoiding being sketchy places after dark. That is why it's so grating to hear you repeat this. Apart from the uselessness of your advice, you think we somehow don't know this. It's just insulting, on too many levels to describe. I can't decide if I feel more insulted as a female for the ineffectiveness of your "advice" that is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of stranger rape, or as an intelligent being by your implication that any of this is news to me.

 

[Abomination]

linking sexual arousal to types of clothing being worn, assumption of personality according to types of clothing being worn, certain individuals' belief a woman "deserved" to be raped due to the type of clothing being worn

My bad, got excited too soon. No evidence here, just the same old "but people look sexier when they wear sexy clothing!" tripe that you still can't connect to rape in any tangible or observable way.

How can there be a tangible way of linking the intent of a criminal who everyone states is untrustworthy due to the nature of their crime with his actual crime?

and that a majority of rapes occur when the victim was wearing clothing before being raped.

lolwut? So in the majority of cases the victim was wearing clothing before being raped? I know I just repeated exactly what you wrote, but there's literally no way to make it sound any more ridiculous than it already is. You don't think that maybe this might be due to the fact that, I don't know, people generally don't walk around naked? Based on this "evidence", the best way to avoid rape is to wear no clothing at all.

You could take that information argue naked = never get raped... if you were an idiot. But like I said MOST rape as I am certain there are circumstances where the victim was already naked before the rape took place.

The argument didn't just appear out of thin air, it is due to people considering potential causes for a rapist's choice of victim.

... And doing so using their own socially-ingrained bias against "sluts" rather than basing it on any actual evidence.

No, not their own socially-ingrained bias but the socially-ingrained bias they know exists in the mind of many a rapist. We are considering the INTENT of a rapist here and what factors they would likely consider. That is why I said "considering potential causes for a rapist's choice of victim" see, because that means they're concerned with what the RAPIST thinks. It doesn't require too much in the way of mental gymnastics to link the issues and form a hypothesis.

Clothing has cases of individuals having arousal of the way someone is dressed, cases of opinion of social worth based upon the way someone is dressed, and cases of individuals believing the wearer is deserving of being raped. Heck, that's enough to form a criminal motive AND intent. It doesn't have to be EVERY individual who holds these ideals, just a few who in turn can become rapists. You have to admit that people who would be this shallow in their opinion of others (I can assure you I am excluded from all apart from maybe the arousal part in certain scenarios, and if someone is wearing nothing more than a trash bag I'll probably guess them to be either mad or potentially homeless) are just the type of people who would be more inclined to rape. Especially if they hold that last one "she deserved it".

 

[Abomination]

these threads boil down to "don't make yourself a target,"

Let's just be clear, could wearing certain clothing make an individual MORE of a target?

If the answer is "Yes" then the argument that clothing can have an effect stands.

If the answer is "No" then by all means wear the skirt that could be confused with a belt.

This is not about blaming victims, insulting women, or excusing rapists... though a lot of people have been trying to cloud it that way.

 

[Lilani]

these threads boil down to "don't make yourself a target,"

Let's just be clear, could wearing certain clothing make an individual MORE of a target?

If the answer is "Yes" then the argument that clothing can have an effect stands.

If the answer is "No" then by all means wear the skirt that could be confused with a belt.

This is not about blaming victims, insulting women, or excusing rapists... though a lot of people have been trying to cloud it that way.

I believe the resounding answer from this thread has been "It has never been proven that certain kinds of clothing raise or lower one's chances of being raped, neither based on rape statistics nor based on profiling and studying the mechanics of stranger rape." You have been told this many times, you just don't seem to take "no" for an answer.

 

[Abomination]

these threads boil down to "don't make yourself a target,"

Let's just be clear, could wearing certain clothing make an individual MORE of a target?

If the answer is "Yes" then the argument that clothing can have an effect stands.

If the answer is "No" then by all means wear the skirt that could be confused with a belt.

This is not about blaming victims, insulting women, or excusing rapists... though a lot of people have been trying to cloud it that way.

I believe the resounding answer from this thread has been "It has never been proven that certain kinds of clothing raise or lower one's chances of being raped, neither based on rape statistics nor based on profiling and studying the mechanics of stranger rape." You have been told this many times, you just don't seem to take "no" for an answer.

Is the answer "Yes" or "No"?

 

[Lilani]

these threads boil down to "don't make yourself a target,"

Let's just be clear, could wearing certain clothing make an individual MORE of a target?

If the answer is "Yes" then the argument that clothing can have an effect stands.

If the answer is "No" then by all means wear the skirt that could be confused with a belt.

This is not about blaming victims, insulting women, or excusing rapists... though a lot of people have been trying to cloud it that way.

I believe the resounding answer from this thread has been "It has never been proven that certain kinds of clothing raise or lower one's chances of being raped, neither based on rape statistics nor based on profiling and studying the mechanics of stranger rape." You have been told this many times, you just don't seem to take "no" for an answer.

Is the answer "Yes" or "No"?

I thought that sentence was a pretty clear "no." When something has never been proven to be a significant factor in causing something, it usually stands to reason that it isn't reasonable to just arbitrarily decide that it should be.

And now I'm going to bed. We're talking in circles. I've said what I want to say. If you still don't want to understand it then I suppose that's your problem.

 

[Abomination]

these threads boil down to "don't make yourself a target,"

Let's just be clear, could wearing certain clothing make an individual MORE of a target?

If the answer is "Yes" then the argument that clothing can have an effect stands.

If the answer is "No" then by all means wear the skirt that could be confused with a belt.

This is not about blaming victims, insulting women, or excusing rapists... though a lot of people have been trying to cloud it that way.

I believe the resounding answer from this thread has been "It has never been proven that certain kinds of clothing raise or lower one's chances of being raped, neither based on rape statistics nor based on profiling and studying the mechanics of stranger rape." You have been told this many times, you just don't seem to take "no" for an answer.

Is the answer "Yes" or "No"?

I thought that sentence was a pretty clear "no." When something has never been proven to be a significant factor in causing something, it usually stands to reason that it isn't reasonable to just arbitrarily decide that it should be.

It isn't a clear no is the issue. The fact no evidence has linked the two yet is not evidence of there not being a link. The study required to prove or disprove a link has not been conducted. This doesn't mean the advice to not dress in a certain way is right, it doesn't mean it is wrong either.

I fall on my particular side of the fence due to my experiences in the environment where such things can happen and how cynical I am as to the nature of my fellow man. I know how irrational people can be and what sick excuses they will use to justify doing something horrible. Clothing would be a very simple excuse for someone to use to justify their own actions to their conscience. How someone would rationalise doing something they otherwise might prevent.

If you do not hold the same beliefs then by all means dress however you want.

I would just advise against it.

 

[Jux]

-snip-

I came in a bit late to this one, but, according to you, would this mean if I (as a man) were working outside in the summer without a shirt on, I would be more likely to be raped than if I were wearing a shirt?

 

[Abomination]

-snip-

I came in a bit late to this one, but, according to you, would this mean if I (as a man) were working outside in the summer without a shirt on, I would be more likely to be raped than if I were wearing a shirt?

No, because the advice doesn't apply to every scenario. It would most likely apply to females who are out at night in areas with little foot traffic for the time of day.

I never claimed it applied to EVERY scenario and EVERY person, just that it can be a factor.

 

[Jux]

-snip-

I came in a bit late to this one, but, according to you, would this mean if I (as a man) were working outside in the summer without a shirt on, I would be more likely to be raped than if I were wearing a shirt?

No, because the advice doesn't apply to every scenario. It would most likely apply to females who are out at night in areas with little foot traffic for the time of day.

I never claimed it applied to EVERY scenario and EVERY person, just that it can be a factor.

Why only females? What if guys are walking around at night without shirts? Why wouldn't it apply to them too? Why are rapists that rape women concerned with womens clothes (sometimes!) but rapists that rape guys not concerned with mens attire?

If stranger rape is a crime of opportunity, which at this point I think it's pretty well established it is, how does clothing become a factor, under any circumstance, unless the rapist only rapes people that wear red, or blue, or any other arbitrary way of clothing discrimination? At which point telling women to dress a certain way is no help at all. What if the rapist really likes sweatpants and frumpy shirts on his victims?

 

[MPerce]

I'm not gonna take the time to read 11 pages worth of comments, but if there's any hope for humanity, the vast majority of them better say something along the lines of:

"the Provocative Clothing Rape Defense is one of the most disgusting, asinine, and altogether unbelievably STUPID excuses for a 'defense' ever concocted by the human brain."

Someone please tell me this is true.

I did read the last page, though, and the debate here seems to be whether wearing attractive clothing makes you more of a target for rape. My answer:

Highly doubtful, but is it really that important?
Even if undeniable evidence was presented that looking attractive clothing makes women more likely to be raped, what are we going to do about it? Tell women to stop wearing what they want in public?
No, because that's ridiculous.

 

[Abomination]

It isn't a clear no is the issue. The fact no evidence has linked the two yet is not evidence of there not being a link.

Do I have to bring up Geoffrey the Gnome again?

You could but that would again be a stupid idea since there is no evidence of gnomes, pixies, goblins or any beings of magical power. No recordings of any strange mystical goings on in your back yard or anything else even hinting at the possibility of gnomes.

We might as well be trying to convince a Christian that God doesn't exist.

It would be compareable if there were acts of divine intervention that occured without any god claiming credit for them.

failed to find any connection

or disconnection

between clothing style and chances of rape, or even any suggestion that rapists pick their victims based on their attractiveness or how sexual they appear to be

ignoring of course the repeated cases of prostitutes being raped and men getting away with it because they know they either won?t report it or won?t be taken seriously should they do so.

You're deliberately shutting your eyes and ears to all this evidence because, for some reason, you really really really want

No, I don't want it at all. I want women to be able to wear whatever they want without even needing to consider if it will effect if they will be raped or not.

Personally, I think that you've got a lot of personal bias that you need to work out - your snide little comments about "skirts that look like a belt" haven't gone unnoticed.

I will repeat, I do not say this because I personally want this to happen or I judge women on how they dress but I know OTHER people do. To deny that other people can be petty, vindictive and sadistic is to deny reality. The "skirts that look like a belt" comment was me hoping to highlight just how wide a range of dress options there are and the opinions people can have of them. I'm all for women wearing skirts that could be confused as belts, I do not mind at all. I know some people do though, some people will consider the wearer to be a slut who is just "begging for it" and we all know how dark thoughts can lead to dark actions.

So fine, let's agree to disagree. I'll continue to put out the bowls of milk for Geoffrey the Gnome

Go ahead, but it's probably cats that are drinking it.

and you continue to tell women that they shouldn't wear that skirt because it will make

SOME

people

MORE LIKELY

want to rape them. Just know that by doing so you're groundlessly perpetuating the idea that "certain women" get raped because of lapses in their own judgement.

Some may think so, some may not. I have no control over what people suspect my motives to be even after explaining them multiple times. I never said it was a 100% cause for it and I never said not doing so meant the woman deserved it. I advise it as an optional precaution. Read as far into it as you like.

 

[Abomination]

-snip-

I came in a bit late to this one, but, according to you, would this mean if I (as a man) were working outside in the summer without a shirt on, I would be more likely to be raped than if I were wearing a shirt?

No, because the advice doesn't apply to every scenario. It would most likely apply to females who are out at night in areas with little foot traffic for the time of day.

I never claimed it applied to EVERY scenario and EVERY person, just that it can be a factor.

Why only females? What if guys are walking around at night without shirts? Why wouldn't it apply to them too? Why are rapists that rape women concerned with womens clothes (sometimes!) but rapists that rape guys not concerned with mens attire?

You did say the summer and during the day. Maybe it would but I would wager the probability to be so negligible and my advice about wearing a shirt at night for a guy would be because it is usually cold at night.

If stranger rape is a crime of opportunity, which at this point I think it's pretty well established it is, how does clothing become a factor, under any circumstance, unless the rapist only rapes people that wear red, or blue, or any other arbitrary way of clothing discrimination? At which point telling women to dress a certain way is no help at all. What if the rapist really likes sweatpants and frumpy shirts on his victims?

And what if he only targets women he thinks are prostitutes because he knows prostitutes don't report rape or are taken seriously for reporting rape as often as other women?

Attack of opportunity and all. Weighing up risk factors - like any predator.