The 'Provocative Clothing' Rape Defense

[Deryl Owens]

I like how the subject of the woman being flirtatous and leading the man on is not included. You think women only DRESS a certain way or do you think it follows that they also act a certain way when dressed (lets not pull any punches here) like a slut. Try to act like booty shorts at the club instead of the gym is somehow not slutty if you want to but then youre just being dishonest.

Before you say (like a retard) that Im actually defending the rapist: False. I am not defending the rapist. Rape is so obviously wrong it is insulting you accuse me of thinking otherwise.

Where I am going with this is that the victim is often the "victim" with a case of buyers remorse. That means that if you dress like a slut you deserve to hear for the millionth time "maybe you shouldnt dress like a slut" and that is all you deserve, not to be raped. I hope it is clear the difference betweeen those 2 things because you are likely thinking with your emotions right now instead of actual thinking.

Perhaps women do have some actual amount of fault in dressing a certain way the same as I would have some actual amount of fault if I went to a gay bar dressed like the male version of a slut. Nevermind that I dont, nevermind that Im straight, it would be flat out dumb to do such a thing and then say "I can dress however I want".

Again not defending the rapist and its sad I have to repeat this for you to remember this far down the post that I already told you that. Posters are on what is so obviously a witch hunt here that unlikely would be a kind outlook on this group having actually thought about the post instead of just flaming like you're about to.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

The provocative clothing isnt an excuse. But a woman needs to take responsibility for herself and what she wares and where she wares them. Not because she doesnt have the right to wear what she wants and wear she wants to. But the fact that there is a lot of scum men out there that will prey on you. Same as i wont walk down the road waving a handful of £50 notes......because that will make me a target to theft.

Its nothing to do with rights, its about common sense. Its about responsibility in a world that is shitty. Its about limiting your self as a target and a victim. Like there are areas in your area you never walk in alone at night. I should beable to, but i dont because im responsible and i dont want to be attacked.

 

[Xanadu84]

I feel the need to play devils advocate...well, play devils advocate, and then absolutely rip that devil a new one.

The defense is not that the rapist lost control and can't be blamed, or that the woman's clothing is a form of consent. You can easily dismiss people making THAT argument as a psychotic minority that can be dismissed out of hand as non-functional as members of society. The majority of people arguing this believe that dressing provocatively makes Rapists target you. It's not that the rapist isn't to blame, its that given the fact that rapists exist, one shouldn't dress provocatively and attract the rapists attention. If the rapist is a worthless animal, dressing provocatively is just like hitting a nest of africanized bees

...except that that argument is still bullshit. First off, there is no evidence of a link between dressing provocatively, and being raped. Secondly, women absolutely deserve to have the freedom to dress however they want, and women sometimes WANT to exercise this right. And frankly, as a man, I want them to as well. It is absurd to dis-incentivize this by forcing responsibility onto the woman. It would be like having no consequences for letting someone die of a heart attack, but charging someone with murder if they perform CPR unsuccessfully. No,, good samaritans and women dressed provocatively is a NICE part of society, and there should be NO negative repercussions for making the world a slightly better place. And lastly, no matter how you cut it, this "She was asking for it" defense will ALWAYS put guilt onto the victim, and this guilt is an abomination. There is no way to express this perspective without hurting the last person you should want to hurt, and legitimizing the scum of the earth.

Long story short, you could have the bustiest, most beautiful, butt naked lady in the universe passed out on a public subway, and if an inebriated man cops a feel, that guy is an absolute asshole, and the women is nothing but an innocent victim.

 

[Backstabber]

There's no defense for rape.

I'm upset that clothes are considered a risk factor, though. Let me just go add 'have "proper" clothing (according to somebody somewhere somehow)' to the insane list of things I should or shouldn't do in an attempt to keep myself safe.

 

[Arqus_Zed]

Under no circumstance should the whole "provocative clothing" thing have any worth when it comes to a defense for rape. There is no defense for rape, you just can't justify it. You can hurt or even kill someone in self-defense, but you never have to rape someone in self-defense.

That said... There are some women (and men) who got out dressed as complete whores, looking for the attention and nothing but the attention of other people. They want to be noticed, they want to be loved by men and envied by women (or the other way around) - but that's it. They will provoke not solely through clothing, but mainly through action and attitude. You know, the covert aggression type. And while rape doesn't come even close to what I would wish upon such a person, part of me has always wanted to kick said people straight in the face.

 

[Aerodyamic]

1. Rapists need to be taught that rape is FUCKING WRONG.

2. Society needs to learn that rape can NEVER be the victims fault. There is no "he/she wanted to get raped"

3-9. See above



10. Maybe, just maybe, women should consider not to dress provocatively when they are going somewhere they know might be dangerous. As written by the gentleman I quoted, revealing clothes do make a woman more of a target, since they do increase her visibility.
This is not to say that they are to blame in any way or at fault or anything even remotely close to that if they get raped, but wearing provocative clothing in a potentially dangerous environment might not be a sensible thing to do at times.

I wholeheartedly agree with all your points, but we also need to teach women that "buyer's remorse" is no excuse to falsely accuse a man of rape.

 

[Johnny Impact]

Nobody deserves to be raped. Nobody. Ever. Don't misunderstand me on this.

However, I think there is such a thing as asking for it. Dressing slutty, getting drunk, and leading a large, muscular man with prison tats to believe he's going to get some -- then yanking it away at the last second?

Let's just say I don't believe that's the most clever use to which a woman can put her time.

I'll say it again: she doesn't deserve to be raped.

And yes, I'm aware many rape victims do not engage in that sort of behavior. Don't accuse me of generalizing, because I'm not. Don't accuse me of blaming the victim, because I'm not. Attackers and victims alike come in all shapes and sizes and from all walks of life.

I'm just saying there should be some awareness that certain behaviors carry greater risk than others. I'm saying it's a damn shame that action without thought or preparation is one of the hallmarks of the human race.

Let's say you walk into the woods in the Northwest. You might meet a grizzly. If that happens, you will be completely in the power of that animal. It can run faster than you, knock down any tree you try to climb, and break your spine with a single swat of its paws. If the bear wants you to die, you are going to die.

Would that be your fault for going into the forest? No. That's a healthy, outdoorsy, pleasant activity that everyone should try. I like to do it, myself.

Would it be your fault if a bear were there? No. You probably don't breed bears, nor do you control the daily ramblings of every wild animal in the world.

If the bear were to maul you, killing or crippling you, would you deserve it? No. You are probably no more deserving of a mauling than any other person. You can do all the right things and still be mauled. A moment of bad luck should not result in death or a lifetime of pain.

Can your behavior -- staying on the trails, keeping your eyes peeled, educating yourself on animal behavior so you know how to avoid provoking bears -- have a dramatic effect on your chances of meeting a bear, and perhaps an even greater effect on what the bear chooses to do? Absolutely yes.

The world is a cruel place. It hurts us all whether we deserve it or not. But that doesn't make wisdom and forethought any less useful, nor doing the wrong thing any less foolish.

 

[afroebob]

Do you actually mean to say that people can honestly get away with raping someone just by using this excuse?

Yes, I think it was Swedden where it happened about a year ago and the guy got off.

 

[Xdeser2]

Its a completely Bullshit defense. Its someone who's trying to rationalize their fucking despicable actions in any way possible, Who simply had no self control.

Well.....In retrospect that really escalated quickly

Captcha: "Its Super Delicious!" Captcha's showing its Dark side 0_o

 

[funkyjiveturkey]

Can your behavior -- staying on the trails, keeping your eyes peeled, educating yourself on animal behavior so you know how to avoid provoking bears -- have a dramatic effect on your chances of meeting a bear, and perhaps an even greater effect on what the bear chooses to do? Absolutely yes.

this

although saying this in ANY social context will get you killed (figuratively). i don't get why people are so worked up about awareness of this, as if it's enough to just expect to not be raped when the world is full of some, for lack of a better term, FUCKED UP people. comments like what you are suggesting are pretty much what started the whole "slut walk" thing; people taking these guidelines out of context.

granted, sometimes it just happens with no provocation and no way of seeing it coming beforehand; bad things happen, not all of them can be prevented. like you said, NO WOMAN (or i guess any human being in general) deserves such a thing. if a woman is walking down the street butt-naked and a man rapes her, it is entirely on that selfish deviant and is in no way what so ever the fault of the woman because she is still not responsible for the actions of another person. should she have gone out of the house naked? no. is it her fault that a man raped her? not at all.

if someone sticks a "kick me" sign on your back and someone else walks up and kicks you in the back of the shins, is that YOUR fault? did YOU dictate THEIR decision? no, you had no effect on it. but the whole "she was asking for it" defense is honestly offensive to me as a man because it makes us ALL look bad, and seem like our natural state is that of a rapist.

 

[Carlston]

I don't get why people still use this as a defense for rape. Why do people try to shift the blame onto the women in a situation where the man is still entirely at fault for, you know, having such little self-control that he has to fuck a woman the second that he gets a boner. This is a defense that's still used, and yet, it's one that already assumes that the man is guilty of rape; it simply tries to shift the blame for the crime onto the victim. How do people still believe in this?

The good thing about stupid people who use that defense is not only does it NOT work it is also considered a confession to the Judge and jury of their guilt.


Now oddly in India and other middle eastern countries it is used and gets them off scott free. But that is more a equal/human rights issue based around governments who use religion as a base for their laws.

 

[barbzilla]

Can you cite a source for your 4% study, or is that just something you heard?

Both the Justice Department, National Crime Victimization Survey: 2006-2010 and Department of Justice, Felony Defendents in Large Urban Counties: average of 2002-2006 use the figure.

Also Kanin's study has been debunked several times, and it is currently used as a reference in literally zero legal/procedural cases. I suggest you google search his name and find the dozens of papers reporting his shoddy methodology and bizarre assumptions.

According to: DiCanio, M. (1993). The encyclopedia of violence: origins, attitudes, consequences. New York: Facts on File.

Almost all studies done on the issue have come up with a figure between 3% and 7% for rape claims that are false - it should be pointed out that the highest bracket is definitely skewed by a few outliers. Overall, I'd say about 5% of rape claims being untrue is a good figure; please note that this includes both malicious claims, which the DOJ claims account for about %1-%2 of all claims, as well as the majority, which are claims made earnestly (almost always regarding events that took place under intoxication) that are later shown to be false.

So even if one out of every twenty reported rapes is a falsehood, once you consider that only around four felony convictions occur per 100 rapes, that means that for every untrue accusation, literally dozens and dozens of men who really do rape go free. Food for thought.

Fair enough, i wasn't calling you a liar. I hadn't ever looked into it before this thread, so I searched Justice Department Number of rapes falsely reported and came up with nothing. That is why I asked. His was the only study I could find that actually cited any real surveys done.

Edit: I just searched the titles you gave me and still didn't find any information regarding rape. Do you have a link I could use?

 

[Johnny Impact]

the whole "she was asking for it" defense is honestly offensive to me as a man because it makes us ALL look bad, and seem like our natural state is that of a rapist.

You clearly haven't read the right feminist works, or you'd know man's natural state *is* that of a rapist, and all sex *is* inherently rape.

Only half kidding, unfortunately. Way too many people believe that stuff. It's every bit as obviously wrong as "she was asking for it." It makes rational discussion onerous and pretty much impossible.

 

[Cid Silverwing]

Most I've heard of this is as a joke.

I dread to think anyone seriously USES this as a defense during procedures.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Most I've heard of this is as a joke.

I dread to think anyone seriously USES this as a defense during procedures.

All the time, to the extent that some jurisdictions have had to ban lawyers mentioning the victim's clothes.

Hell, half the responses in this thread are variations of "Rape is wrong, but if she's not wearing a burqa, she deserves it". With optional added claims about how common and easy it is for women to get a man falsely convicted of rape.

 

[John Jenkin]

By and large, this is a bunch of nonsense.

I mean I'm all for intellectual discussion, but come on. 'Asking for it?' How would you like it if you took your shirt off on a hot day and some lunatic came a'running?

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Never saw any merit to it, to be honest. If I can restrain myself from killing people who annoy or provoke me, others can restrain themselves from raping women who are dressed scantily. No matter how much you want to hit that, it will rarely be worth committing a serious crime. Also, it's practically an affront to men to assume that if a female is dressed provocatively, the male somehow is not responsible for his own actions on account of his overriding lust. We're not animals, if you make the decision to rape someone, it's your fault.

But I don't think it was ever used as an excuse for rape, more of a preventative measure for females. Don't dress like a slut, and you're less likely to be raped than someone who is. Which would make sense if males were uncontrollable rapists, but I'm pretty sure they're not. Women shouldn't even have to try and diminish their chances of being raped, it just shouldn't happen.

EDIT: Oh wait, I'm living in the wrong country, it is used as an EXCUSE all the f***ing time. In which case, that's just silly.

EDIT 2: And no, if the girl is drunk and has consentual sex, accusing someone of rape afterwards is not an excuse either. You have to be averse to having sex for it to be rape, not just suffering a bout of poor decision making.

EDIT 3:

It's a disgusting excuse. And everyone who believes that that excuse is justified should be the ones getting raped.

Well that escalated quickly.

 

[Hagi]

It's an utterly retarded thing to say. Even in the whole warning sense.

As has been mentioned a dozen times already there's as much evidence for video games playing a part in real violence as there is for provocative clothing playing a part in real rape. On top of that even if that was the case it wouldn't help anything at all.

All those 'warnings' start with "given that there are rapists", which means someone's going to get raped. Not wearing provocative clothing in this imaginary universe where that has anything to do with rape at all isn't going to stop that rape, best case it's going to happen to someone else. Given that there's a rapist he's gonna rape someone, that's what makes him/her a rapist.

This warning prevented exactly nothing at all, except for propagating the idea that the victim could have avoided the crime if she'd just been smarter and dressed appropriately (but they're not blaming her! It's more like erm... well... let's just say it's not blame!).

All women everywhere could start dressing in burqas today and rape figures would not drop at all. The excuses will just change. Instead of warning against provocative clothing idiots everywhere will be warning against flashing slightly too much ankle, I mean I don't go around flashing my big fat wallet full of bills either do I?

 

[runic knight]

for the love of...

ok, pretty simple here. First though.

NO SANE PERSON THINKS IT IS THE VICTIM'S FAULT!

There, out of the way? ok lets go then.
This is used when people are trying to find ways to avoid rape. Given how most victims know there rapist and the behavior of most rapist being motivated by control or power, it is very poor advice, but I can understand the rational thought behind it. If you leave a sack of money out where people can see it, it increases the chance to tempt someone into breaking the law and taking it. Thus, in the mind of those who don't know much about why rape occurs, if you look like someone easy to rape by having less clothes. This is untrue though, as rape is not along the same lines within the normal mind as theft. Taking property has always been much more tolerated in society then violence, and humans have evolved, either as individuals or as a society as a whole, to be similar, where theft is easier to commit then violence. Rape, being very violent in the nature of taking control and using force, is harder for the average person to do. This may be why it ties in with the statistics it does, such as victims knowing their attacker when logically it would be smarter to attack someone who couldn't identify you, and why it is often determined to be about control or power rather then just the desire for sex, which is often over simplified to by the same who suggest the "don't dress slutty" advice.

Now, there are some times where this is used not as a means to rationalize something that is unpleasant to accept (rape happening and being less predictable then first thought, thus people less able to defend against it by simple dress codes) but as a means of "defense". The main one that comes to mind is of cases of of claims of rape where the defendant is trying to present the case that it was consensual and the alleged victim changed there perspective after the fact. I don't have any comments about the validity of this as a legitimate defense, the tactic of using a woman's desire for consensual sex prior to when alleged rape sex took place, or the very occurrence or lack there of of women changing their mind after the night and making rape claims for whatever reason they may do so. All that is a toughy messy subject best left not dealt with in these emotional forums.

Back to the main point, yeah, no one in their right mind things a woman dressing like a "slut" excuses someone from raping her. At all. And the opinion of her dress is more a reflection of the average lack of knowledge about how to prevent rape and probably a little self delusion since the reality of "someone you know and trust and never thought would may rape you" being very unsettling. far easier to believe those that flaunt it get their stuff stolen first.

 

[Thaluikhain]

for the love of...

ok, pretty simple here. First though.

NO SANE PERSON THINKS IT IS THE VICTIM'S FAULT!

Unfortunately, that's not remotely true. Or people often think that the victim wasn't a victim, if you prefer. Or you've got a definition of sane that excludes an awfully large number of people.

Victim blaming is a constant, it's one of the reasons the reporting rates for rape are tiny.

A memorable example from a few months back, an 11 year old girl who'd been gang-raped by 21 men and boys for four months was said to have lured them in "like a spider".