The rampant Sexualization in videogames

[Erttheking]

Yes there really are issues with the way that men are portrayed in games. The problem is that people only ever seem to bring up these problems when they're trying to get people to shut up about how women are portrayed in games, not to address them and improve on them. One side is trying to bring attention to one problem and address it. The other side is saying that there are in reality two problems, but that we should ignore both of them.

 

[EternallyBored]

This post was meant more figuratively. Now I could clarify what I meant myself, but EternallyBored has done that already perfectly, so there's no need for that.

That's pretty much the crux of the issue, there are legitimate criticisms to make against the portrayal of male characters in video games, but posts like the original topic here basically poisons the well and prevents rational discourse on the subject. Seriously just create a topic that talks about men in media and I would be happy to talk about my views on its problems and issues, but this tactic of posting sarcastically just to degrade any other criticism or responding to any post about women with a simpering, "but what about the men!" doesn't help anyone and does more damage to both sides of the argument than it does to stop complaining from "feminists".

I don't disagree with what you're both saying, however it's worrying that people feel the need to argue against this point [the men are sexualised to, so stop complaining point].

It only lends credence to the belief that it is the actual issue, and that it has validity as an argument.

While you may not have seen it, it is an issue that crops up, this isn't even the first time I've seen this exact topic pop up on this forum, with the original post trying to sarcastically make light of the issue whether in jest or trying to actually make a serious point on what they see as whining about sexism in games. Even Jim Sterling did an episode on the very same issue, so it is something quite a few people are noticing. Even back when I just lurked this forum there were multiple topics I remember being vastly disappointed in because the title promising a discussion about male representation in gaming turned out to be another topic trying to compare male to female representation, either to make fun of the female side of the argument, or an attempt to pointlessly equivocate the two sides of the debate.

There are places on the internet where attempting to rationally discuss male issues will get you shouted down by extreme feminists, but I have never seen it on this site before.

 

[wulf3n]

While you may not have seen it, it is an issue that crops up, this isn't even the first time I've seen this exact topic pop up on this forum, with the original post trying to sarcastically make light of the issue whether in jest or trying to actually make a serious point on what they see as whining about sexism in games. Even Jim Sterling did an episode on the very same issue, so it is something quite a few people are noticing. Even back when I just lurked this forum there were multiple topics I remember being vastly disappointed in because the title promising a discussion about male representation in gaming turned out to be another topic trying to compare male to female representation, either to make fun of the female side of the argument, or an attempt to pointlessly equivocate the two sides of the debate.

There are places on the internet where attempting to rationally discuss male issues will get you shouted down by extreme feminists, but I have never seen it on this site before.

I'm not saying there isn't an issue to discuss or worth discussing, just that contending this position convinces those that hold it that it's a position of contention.

 

[EternallyBored]

While you may not have seen it, it is an issue that crops up, this isn't even the first time I've seen this exact topic pop up on this forum, with the original post trying to sarcastically make light of the issue whether in jest or trying to actually make a serious point on what they see as whining about sexism in games. Even Jim Sterling did an episode on the very same issue, so it is something quite a few people are noticing. Even back when I just lurked this forum there were multiple topics I remember being vastly disappointed in because the title promising a discussion about male representation in gaming turned out to be another topic trying to compare male to female representation, either to make fun of the female side of the argument, or an attempt to pointlessly equivocate the two sides of the debate.

There are places on the internet where attempting to rationally discuss male issues will get you shouted down by extreme feminists, but I have never seen it on this site before.

I'm not saying it doesn't occur, just that contending this position convinces those that hold it that it's a position of contention.

Well, that's why I said it's posts like the OP that damages both sides of the argument, it does hurt the feminism side of the argument as well by making a point of contention out of something that doesn't need to be and creating an image that links talking about male issues with dismissing the other side. The proper way to combat that would be to make a serious topic on the issue rather than to continue railing in this one, of course we are all technically guilty of that at this point, but this is the internet, and that means people waste way too much time responding seriously to any posts no matter how obviously sarcastic they may be.

 

[Dogstile]

Oh, cool, another thread with exactly the same issue discussed in probably over a thousand posts by now, without any change of the argument. Luckily, discussing is fun.

I always had a beef with that comic.
If somebody doesn't care about the fact your are on fire, until they themselves are on fire, are they not extremely self-centered?
"Well it was okay when it was happening to you but now it's happening to me we need to do something about it."

It's a compelling counterpoint in the way that it discredits the person who made the initial point as only being concerned with what affects themselves, and not concerned with ethics or morality, which is the way they present themselves.

I would like you to state the moral/ethical rules from which "You have to adress the problems of other people, even though they are perfectly capable of adressing them themselves" follows.

It is also worth noting that, despite apparently being "on fire" for years, Men quite seemed to enjoy the warmth until recently.

Its quite simple. The idea is that if you ignored a problem other people were having until you yourself had the problem, what right do you have to complain that people are ignoring your problem?

That's the "moral/ethical" basis the poster is coming from.

Oh well, I refuse to take these discussions seriously anymore. All it ever devolves into is people going into "personal" experiences which stand for fuck all in a real debate, how they "feel" which has more standing because of the debate subject, but is still worthless on its own and finally insults.

The problem is that people only ever seem to bring up these problems when they're trying to get people to shut up about how women are portrayed in games, not to address them and improve on them.

That's not really true. Aside from dumb posts like the OP's here, it does get brought up on occasion, although not as much because male activism to not feel pressured hasn't really caught on in the world (no surprise there for a number of reasons). The thing is, whenever it does get brought up, even away from the womens side of the argument, they get told that its not a problem because women have it worse. So it brings both sides into one stupid debate.

Honestly, this site should either have a forum dedicated to arguing over sexism or ban discussion of it outright, because its getting fucking pathetic. I can't go anywhere on the internet without shitty feminists or asshole MRA's making anecdotal arguments and being absolute dicks to eachother.

 

[aba1]

I guess I will just copy paste my post from another thread here since it is still fairly relevant. It focuses on women but I am just going to pretend to be cutting through the irony and straight to the point.

To be honest I don't see why it is offensive to have skimpy outfit on top of that all why people only seem to notice when it is women when guys tend to have just as much in the way of skimpy outfits. Honestly you show me a game with girls in skimpy outfits and the same game will have shirtless guys with chiseled features. So it goes both ways but lets say that doesn't matter it is still bad I have to ask why? It can't be because of unrealistic designs since 99% of games aren't realistic to begin with. It can't be that animated women somehow make women feel bad about their bodies because 99% of the time the games are aimed at a male demographic anyways and that being said the male forms would actually be the big concern. Besides if your daughter is getting depressed because fictional characters look good she lacks perspective and any sorta realistic expectations in life and her looks are the least of her problems. Could the problem be that it promotes skimpy outfits cause that really shouldn't be a problem either why should women feel bad for showing their physic there is nothing wrong with the female or male form and people should be allowed to dress how ever the like.

Maybe my perspective is just odd but if it were up to me people could walk around naked for all I care the human form isn't anything to be embarrassed about nor should it be shunned and even if someone is unrealistically proportioned you shouldn't be modeling your own self image after other people to begin with. People need to grow the hell up and learn to appreciate themselves and not base their own self worth on others and if you can't get over your own hangups then you shouldn't be taking your problems out on the things around you, you should be spending that time working on self improvement either mentally or physically or both.

 

[aba1]

Is this meant to be satire? Because if it is, it's not very good.

Also, relevant Critical Miss...

I actually do find that to be a relevant counter. It shows that being sexualized doesn't hurt anybody so running around bitching about it is just silly. People yell and cheer for pride parades but turn their noses and sexualized characters. Why is showing one type sexuality ok but not another. I fail to see how a girl with big tits hurts anybody or should even matter. The human form exaggerated or not is not something to hide or be embarrassed about nor should it be hated or shunned. People need to get over their insecurities.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Ha ha ha ha, I actually like the thread & the point Siomasm

It wouldn't be so bad if sexualisation of lead roles hadn't been an industry standard since the entertainment industry was born, but it has, so I don't get why it's that big an issue?

Marlyn Monroe, James Dean, Bradd Pitt, Megan Fox, Sean Connery, Johnny Depp, Julia Roberts, etc. etc. - all designed with attraction in mind (whether it be from "I want to fuck them" POV, or "I want to be them" POV.) Even if they aren't to your taste, the motivation behind their image is always to attract buyers.

It's just a bog standard thing used to boost sales.

Thing is, "I want to fuck them" and "I want to be them" is a bit of a different kind of attraction.

To be fair, I have never understood why all the improbably skilled, badass, incredibly attractive, women in comics, games, ect ect don't generate a "I want to be them" attitude from women. From things like fashion magazines and make-up, and for a few breast implants, I can gather that at least some women are fairly concerned about their appearance. So why are the badass male characters with six pack abs and a gleaming smile male power fantasies, but equally badass women with big breasts and a pretty face not female power fantasies? Perhaps its because comics and video games tend to be very male focussed so there's less of a sense of the characters being "for" them.

 

[lacktheknack]

Is this meant to be satire? Because if it is, it's not very good.

Also, relevant Critical Miss...

I always had a beef with that comic.
If somebody doesn't care about the fact your are on fire, until they themselves are on fire, are they not extremely self-centered?
"Well it was okay when it was happening to you but now it's happening to me we need to do something about it."

It's a compelling counterpoint in the way that it discredits the person who made the initial point as only being concerned with what affects themselves, and not concerned with ethics or morality, which is the way they present themselves.

While I see where you're coming from, the fact that it's selfish of her to not care that the guys were on fire first doesn't change the fact that everyone's on fire and we should probably fix that. That's why the comic chose fire specifically over, say, getting mud all over themselves.

OT: The oversexualization of gaming is as irritating as hell and I wish they'd lighten up. No one gives a damn about my opinion. Maybe I should focus my efforts on something where people pay more attention to my thoughts, such as domestic disputes in Mozambique or Ghana.

 

[aba1]

I actually do find that to be a relevant counter. It shows that being sexualized doesn't hurt anybody so running around bitching about it is just silly. People yell and cheer for pride parades but turn their noses and sexualized characters. Why is showing one type sexuality ok but not another. I fail to see how a girl with big tits hurts anybody or should even matter. The human form exaggerated or not is not something to hide or be embarrassed about nor should it be hated or shunned. People need to get over their insecurities.

This isn't just about "sexy things" (as what you seem to think "sexualization" is) but about what it represents. And what it represents is how female characters are treated as eye-candy first, and characters about 6th (right after boobs, butt, legs, and hair). They aren't people, they're objects, hence the term "objectification". that is the issue.

Male characters, even when they're ripped, square jawed, and packing heat at least get the courtesy of characterization. They have wants and needs and desires, they have backstories and personalities. Whether or not they're well written is inconsequential because at least there's an attempt. Their sexualization is just the cherry on top to make you want to be them, for a female characters? It's to make you want to fuck them. Big difference.

This isn't about prudishness, or insecurities, its about wanting the other gender of videogame characters to be treated as people instead of sex dolls or something to stuff a fridge with.

If that is true then why is this a huge issue all of a sudden now in the wake of so many big titles featuring female leads or focusing on female characters (ie: Last of Us, Tomb Raider, Bioshock, Portal etc) and why is it so focused around Dragons Crown when Dragons Crown focuses and treats all the characters equally? While were at it why is it all people are talking about is how female characters look if that is not the issue?

Even focusing on your point of women being treated with a lack of characterization that is just true for most characters in games. I wouldn't even say it is gender specific. Men tend to be in the lead character role the most often and generally only main character gets any serious development. So it would be more about the main character only getting development and have nothing to do with gender. If we are looking at it this way it is really just poor writing which is a well established issue with the field in general and is actually improving quite quickly.

 

[Burnswell]

To be fair, I have never understood why all the improbably skilled, badass, incredibly attractive, women in comics, games, ect ect don't generate a "I want to be them" attitude from women. From things like fashion magazines and make-up, and for a few breast implants, I can gather that at least some women are fairly concerned about their appearance. So why are the badass male characters with six pack abs and a gleaming smile male power fantasies, but equally badass women with big breasts and a pretty face not female power fantasies? Perhaps its because comics and video games tend to be very male focussed so there's less of a sense of the characters being "for" them.

I've never felt a "I want to be them" from a character, Idk if you have? That's always said as though it's true but I get the feeling that everyone who says it is talking about everybody else who must think it because it's an idea that's around.
I suspect that some people of both genders feel that way, although I've also never actually heard a game designer claim that was why they made the character that way either, usually it's either a blank slate shell for the player to fill or a written character you are meant to side with rather than want to become.

 

[EternallyBored]

Ha ha ha ha, I actually like the thread & the point Siomasm

It wouldn't be so bad if sexualisation of lead roles hadn't been an industry standard since the entertainment industry was born, but it has, so I don't get why it's that big an issue?

Marlyn Monroe, James Dean, Bradd Pitt, Megan Fox, Sean Connery, Johnny Depp, Julia Roberts, etc. etc. - all designed with attraction in mind (whether it be from "I want to fuck them" POV, or "I want to be them" POV.) Even if they aren't to your taste, the motivation behind their image is always to attract buyers.

It's just a bog standard thing used to boost sales.

Thing is, "I want to fuck them" and "I want to be them" is a bit of a different kind of attraction.

To be fair, I have never understood why all the improbably skilled, badass, incredibly attractive, women in comics, games, ect ect don't generate a "I want to be them" attitude from women. From things like fashion magazines and make-up, and for a few breast implants, I can gather that at least some women are fairly concerned about their appearance. So why are the badass male characters with six pack abs and a gleaming smile male power fantasies, but equally badass women with big breasts and a pretty face not female power fantasies? Perhaps its because comics and video games tend to be very male focussed so there's less of a sense of the characters being "for" them.

Some do, but it seems to come down to a matter of presentation, your essentially right that it's the male focus that turns a lot of women away. Many powerful sexualized women have the basis of good female power fantasy at their core, confidence, control, heroism, intelligence, wisdom, charisma, power, even a little sexuality and the ability to wield it. When that character is specifically drawn or written for a male audience though, all that power and control takes a backseat to the almighty god of fanservice. She may be able to crush tanks with one punch and survive in space, but when it comes time for a panty shot or for her to be groped, you better damn well believe that no amount of omnipotence is going to save her from flashing her panties or getting fondled. I think a lot of women can see through the blatant fanservice and realize that all her badass abilities and cool powers will always be secondary when it comes time for the author to try and titillate his audience. Some women are able to look past that and still idolize these characters (I know plenty of women that love power girl and spider woman), but they tend to idolize them despite the fanservice not because of it.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

So...can you just put the word "rampant" in front of something to make it sound terrifying and important? Let's test:

"Syntax errors found in line 31"

Oh for Christ's sake, did I forget the close parentheses again? *scroll scroll scroll*

"Rampant syntax errors found in line 31"

Shit shit shit! Ctrl+Alt+Del, Ctrl+Alt+Del! Dammit, it's not working! Reboot in safe mode! Oh god, even the bios is infected! Reformat the hard drive! Wait...what the hell? It's...what in god's name is this? It's alive! It's aliiiiiiiiii----

Yep. Anything.

 

[Drauger]

"Male Power Fantasy" bullshit, yeah I'm freaking tired of being told what I desire as a fantasy, guess what? I don't want to be a a white ash bald violent ashole who destroys everything as he walks, or a living saussage with legs that kills demons and turns his hair white, a fat ass italian cliche who can only repeat IT'S ME MARIO, or worse a mute androgyny elf whose only purposes in life are crash pots, cut the lawn, and search in X number dungeons for a spoiled princess who can't have a decent security system in her castle to say some.

Say all you want but , quote as much comics as you like but expecting guys to fantasize with the above examples it's just plain sexist, none it's cool nor for man or women, so what about if someone takes the hose and turns the fire off instead of saying "my fire is worse than yours?" or "That's not fire, mine is!"

 

[Sack of Cheese]

I find this is an easy comparison,

Spoiler: This is an example of 'sexualised' man - NSFW?

Spoiler: This is just an empowered man

I don't have a problem with sexualised characters in general, I'm too desensitised to them.

 

[Cybylt]

Sephiroth makes more fangirls in a day than Marcus Phoenix will ever have in his entire existence.

That bit's probably mostly true but there are women who find muscly men attractive. I mean, Marcus and Kratos weren't made with them in mind whatsoever, but still.

Anyway on to my main point(and this is likely spam or something because of it) IS THAT MOTHERFUCKIN' CHIBODEE CROCKET?

 

[Nakts]

If you really believe sexuallized male characters are male power fantasy and nothing more, take a trip to your local bookstore, check out the romance section, and come back ready to admit defeat.

 

[Stephen St.]

Its quite simple. The idea is that if you ignored a problem other people were having until you yourself had the problem, what right do you have to complain that people are ignoring your problem?

That's the "moral/ethical" basis the poster is coming from.

Oh well, I refuse to take these discussions seriously anymore. All it ever devolves into is people going into "personal" experiences which stand for fuck all in a real debate, how they "feel" which has more standing because of the debate subject, but is still worthless on its own and finally insults.

I am not using any personal experience or emotion though, I purely ask for the logcial conclusions that lead to your statenment: "If you have ignored other people's issues before, it is morally reprehensible/discredits you to now adress your own issues". I have already brought forward numerous points why I think this is illogical, and that this would, if applied to all movements, discredit pretty much every civil rights movement ever, since there are always more problems to be adressed.

I can bring forward additional points: Your statement assumes that a problem was "ignored", which requires knowledge of the problem. Can you prove that, prior to the feminist movement with regard to games, anyone knew that people were having a problem with the design of male characters in videogames?

 

[Gali]

There are gamers out there, male and female alike, that just want more variety/better storytelling. This is not about a feminist agenda to censor this type of media. It is just about gaming growing up and admitting, that there are more people on this earth than heroic white males and brainless bimbos with big boobs. And they are as much as capable to save the day and get the girl/guy as our beloved stereotypes. What I want to say is: We have a common issue here. It just came up recently because the representation of women in games is far more vile than when it comes to men, since you atleast GET to save the day.

Instead of fighting who is represented worse, we need to demand more variety. Not only when it comes to female characters. This doesn't mean the bimbos and heroic males are going away. It just means that we get more Jades, Nillins, Bayonettas (yes, she's sexualized, but there is an character attached to it - this is smart storytelling!) Lees and the like.

 

[VodkaKnight]

I think I'd be kinda cool if we had an AVERAGE protagonist.
Not that tall, not quite thin but not fat, reasonably attractive, fit, but not overwhelmingly so.
I look forward to that game, or a game with a disabled protagonist, because I can't think of any.