The real problem with "that scene" in Man of Steel (DCCU spoilers)

[Queen Michael]

Okay, we all know what people who dislike Man of Steel hates the most about the movie. Superman kills a guy, even though that's something Superman isn't ever supposed to do.

But here's the thing: Almost every iteration of Superman that I know of has either killed or tried to kill somebody at some point.

Here's what's different about MoS Superman: He kills the bad guy during his very first superhero adventure. Zack Snyder probably intended the scene to show Superman being forced by horrible circumstance to break his most cherished principle. But since we've never seen a Superman adventure where this Superman doesn't kill, and he shows about ten seconds of angst about it, he comes off as a Superman who will kill whenever it's useful.

And then he kills the villain in BvS too, and firmly establishes himself as a Superman who kills in every movie.

That's the problem with DCCU Superman. Not that he killed a person. But that he was so damn eager to do it.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I'm a pretty big fan of Man of Steel, I don't get why killing Zod was such a big deal. He killed Zod in freaking Superman II and everyone was fine with it. What is Superman supposed to even do with Zod if he were to catch him? You can't just throw him in jail like Lex Luther. Then BvS happen and everything about that movie is horrible across the board, I saw it the Thursday night before Friday so I'd go in with no biases from word of mouth. I walked out completely puzzled at how you can make something so unfathomably bad. I don't think killing Doomsday counts as a "kill" really and Superman was the one that shouldn't have freaking used the spear in the first place. Then, people are like it was chopped up and the "real" cut will fix it. What?! The theatrical release had an hour and a half you could cut already. Superman didn't really get much screen time at all in and what was there was a really boring, depressed, sad Superman that was just horrible. Batman's character was just as horrible if not worse.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Oh no, I have been debating about this with people for some many years now, and you bring this argument BACK?!

Sigh.

My opinion is this as of now.

I don't care that Superman kills, infact I am glad he is man that now Kills his enemies, I don't care if it goes against his character. I grew up with characters in DBZ that kills their enemies and yet no one complains.

I play RPGs where I kill my Enemies, I killed the Lich King in my playthrough of WOW as a holy paladin of the light, I killed Ragnaros the Firelord, in KOTOR I killed Darth Malgus.


And characters like Doomsday, Zod, and Darkseid derserves to die. And that's pretty much my thoughts, Some people derserves redemtpion and fair trial, and some people derserves to die for their evil.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

I don't think he was eager to kill Zod. He seemed very reluctant, actually. But Zod directly threatened a family at that point and he didn't know what else to do. It's not like he just killed him because it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Supermans whole character arc in that movie amounted to "What is more important to me? My heritage as an alien or the world I grew up on?" so it ends with Superman choosing to kill the last remnant of his civilization in order to save a family of humans. Which I think was kind of a deciding moment for him. I mean, the whole plot of the movie was that Zod offered him to turn Earth into a new Krypton where he could fit in and live a normal live, of course at the cost of the entire human population. Which is the other thing, really, Zod was trying to commit genocide of an entire species. Our species, no less. How do you deal with someone like that? I don't think he could have been redeemed and how in the world could you keep someone with that kind of power prisoner? Zod dying really was the only way this could have ended and while literally snapping his neck was a bit brutal the situation kinda called for it.

And don't get me started on Doomsday in BvS. There's absolutely no indication that Doomsday had anywhere near human level intelligence. He was basically just a very angry ape who was powerful enough to wipe out human civilization if he isn't stopped. I'm not sure if he's even technically alive in the first place, he's a a genetically manipulated reanimated corpse. Killing him just isn't comparable to killing a human. Or someone like Zod. I'd hardly even call Doomsday a villain rather than just an evil force unleashed by the real villain, Lex Luthor. Whom Superman actually went out of his way to save when Doomsday attacked him.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

I always figured Superman's no kill rule only applied to his squishier enemies, like Lex. Killing Lex, under almost any circumstance, would make the Man of Tomorrow look pretty bad. Zod, on the other hand, proves himself to be more than a match for Superman. Zod wont stop. Zod can't be stopped. Superman, under the circumstances of fighting a being that can take him on blow for blow, is forced to make a decision. End it there by killing him. Or allow more innocents to suffer. He certainly wasn't eager to do it in Man of Steel. He was "forced" to under the circumstances. Aside from being uncomfortable watching Superman, a character I adore as one of the best, most morally upright heroes of all time (Alongside Captain America and Optimus Prime), snap a guys neck with the flick of his wrist, I really don't care about Superman killing Zod.

I'd say the real problem with the death scene in Man of Steel is the lack of emotional weight. From the moment Zod appears he establishes himself as a genocidal psychopath with a strong dedication to reviving Krypton, even at the expense of an entire planet's population. He doesn't even try to hide the potential consequences of his actions. "Hey, Kal El, why don't you help me build a new planet for Krypton. We can build it right there on Mars! Earth and Krypton can totes be neighbors!" And then comes the reveal and double cross. Hell, Zod could even take the time to show him what Krypton used to be like to sweeten the deal. Show him that there are no down sides. Then again, it's been years since I last saw the movie so maybe this did happen and I'm just talking out of my ass.

 

[Saltyk]

So I never even made it to that scene. I stopped watching Man of Steel way before that scene.

No, Man of Steel is a bad movie. Maybe worse than BvS, which at least had a few scenes that I legitimately liked. MoS didn't have a single scene that I liked.

Oh, it had a scene that was almost amazing. It was almost one of the best Superman scenes I've ever seen. We had Clark in a bar. He encounters a man who is basically just a bully. And for a moment Clark is tempted to put the man in his place, but he doesn't and simply walks away. And the scene was great. But then the movie kept on going. And we see that Superman had crucified the man's truck. And now we know that the real bully of the scene was Clark. He didn't walk away because he is a good person. He walked away because he couldn't act without killing the guy, so instead he took it out on his truck. Seriously, fuck this scene.

And there was not a single moment that could save the movie after that. But it only got worse. John Kent telling him that maybe he should have let kids die. John Kent sacrificing himself to "protect" Clark. And don't even get me started on the bad CGI that was used in the Smallville fight scene. You ever wonder why people pointed out all the obvious advertisements? Because their attention was drawn to those as the rest of the scene was a Goddamn cartoon. I would have believed Goku was there before Superman, and Goku is an actual animated character!

Incidentally, the Smallville fight bored me so much, I stopped watching the movie after that. I know the rest through reputation and videos I've seen. I didn't miss anything.

No, Superman didn't have to kill Zod. And there was no meaning in the act. Superman was making out with Lois moments later. And BvS didn't even try to capitalize on that idea (even Nostalgia Critic pointed that out).

Oh, and speaking of Superman making out with Lois. Yeah, that happened in the devastated Metropolis. Where buildings were rubble. And you just know there were people dead and dying around them. People crying for help in the rubble. People Superman could hear while he kissed Lois. Superman is no hero. Man of Steel did nothing to make him a hero. It merely claimed the "S" stood for hope. It used Jesus imagery all over the place, but who did Superman save?

Man of Steel is a terrible movie. And thus far the DCCU has only lived up to that reputation.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

You know I never understood the bar scene: no pub owner I know of would let a half-cut trucker assault their staff like that.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

I agree with the OP, but not only was it too soon, it was sooo poorly executed.

For a last resort situation, there sure were a lot of things that could have been done other than neck snapping. Those dumbshit civilians could have, you know, walked out of the way. Superman could have turned his neck the other way, considering he had the power to snap it. He could have flown Zod up, choked him into unconsciousness, hell, he could have covered his eyes with his hand.

And there's that it didn't change him in ant foreseeable way. He still kills people all the time.

 

[jademunky]

That's the problem with DCCU Superman. Not that he killed a person. But that he was so damn eager to do it.

But let's not forget, back in the 70's, he kills Zod in a much more cold-blooded way than he does in MoS. He permanently depowers him, THEN sends him plummeting to his death.

I think the real problem with the modern Superman movies is that they have never given the character the time to establish who he actually is before making the ending a satisfying gut-punch. If somehow they could've established him as this all-loving protector and THEN placed him in that no-win situation where he had to either break his own rules or watch innocents die, that might've worked better.

Same with Dawn of Justice and how they handled the death of Superman. Now there was a lot in the 90's Death of Superman story that was awful (most of it tbh) but what worked were the issues immediately after it that dealt with the rest of the DC universe and the anguish the characters went through. None of that happened this time though since Supes was always a target of suspicion and resentment right up until the heroic sacrifice.

 

[jademunky]

John Kent telling him that maybe he should have let kids die.

This right here, you had one job in this movie Jonathan Kent and you blew it with a single word: "Maybe."

Really, the only way DC could really salvage this is if the faux-grittiness was all intentional and was all a buildup for the reveal that this was the "Kingdom Come" universe. The Flash cameo and his line about Lois maybe kinda sorta implies that.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I agree with the OP, but not only was it too soon, it was sooo poorly executed.

For a last resort situation, there sure were a lot of things that could have been done other than neck snapping. Those dumbshit civilians could have, you know, walked out of the way. Superman could have turned his neck the other way, considering he had the power to snap it. He could have flown Zod up, choked him into unconsciousness, hell, he could have covered his eyes with his hand.

And there's that it didn't change him in ant foreseeable way. He still kills people all the time.

Problem with the Flying Zod up Argument is that Zod is just as strong as Superman so he could have just held his weight down making it difficult for Superman to pull him up, and don't bullshit me that Superman is stupid strong in the comics because Comic Book Super is established to move planets.

Man of Steel Superman has not been showcased to do feats of stregnth that ridiculous.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

John Kent telling him that maybe he should have let kids die.

This right here, you had one job in this movie Jonathan Kent and you blew it with a single word: "Maybe."

Really, the only way DC could really salvage this is if the faux-grittiness was all intentional and was all a buildup for the reveal that this was the "Kingdom Come" universe. The Flash cameo and his line about Lois maybe kinda sorta implies that.

Well I believe Superman being like this is litirally to make him unlikable and killy becuase they are setting up Injustice universe.

Superman will be dictator of the world with the help of Darkseid because Lois died.

And that Future scene with Batman sort of proves they are setting him up to be this way.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So I never even made it to that scene. I stopped watching Man of Steel way before that scene.

No, Man of Steel is a bad movie. Maybe worse than BvS, which at least had a few scenes that I legitimately liked. MoS didn't have a single scene that I liked.

Oh, it had a scene that was almost amazing. It was almost one of the best Superman scenes I've ever seen. We had Clark in a bar. He encounters a man who is basically just a bully. And for a moment Clark is tempted to put the man in his place, but he doesn't and simply walks away. And the scene was great. But then the movie kept on going. And we see that Superman had crucified the man's truck. And now we know that the real bully of the scene was Clark. He didn't walk away because he is a good person. He walked away because he couldn't act without killing the guy, so instead he took it out on his truck. Seriously, fuck this scene.

And there was not a single moment that could save the movie after that. But it only got worse. John Kent telling him that maybe he should have let kids die. John Kent sacrificing himself to "protect" Clark. And don't even get me started on the bad CGI that was used in the Smallville fight scene. You ever wonder why people pointed out all the obvious advertisements? Because their attention was drawn to those as the rest of the scene was a Goddamn cartoon. I would have believed Goku was there before Superman, and Goku is an actual animated character!

Incidentally, the Smallville fight bored me so much, I stopped watching the movie after that. I know the rest through reputation and videos I've seen. I didn't miss anything.

No, Superman didn't have to kill Zod. And there was no meaning in the act. Superman was making out with Lois moments later. And BvS didn't even try to capitalize on that idea (even Nostalgia Critic pointed that out).

Oh, and speaking of Superman making out with Lois. Yeah, that happened in the devastated Metropolis. Where buildings were rubble. And you just know there were people dead and dying around them. People crying for help in the rubble. People Superman could hear while he kissed Lois. Superman is no hero. Man of Steel did nothing to make him a hero. It merely claimed the "S" stood for hope. It used Jesus imagery all over the place, but who did Superman save?

Man of Steel is a terrible movie. And thus far the DCCU has only lived up to that reputation.

Really Superman is that badguy in that Bar scene?

I hate this logic that enacted retribution against the bully makes you the bully. It pisses me off that when the victim acts against their abuser, the victim gets in trobule.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

I agree with the OP, but not only was it too soon, it was sooo poorly executed.

For a last resort situation, there sure were a lot of things that could have been done other than neck snapping. Those dumbshit civilians could have, you know, walked out of the way. Superman could have turned his neck the other way, considering he had the power to snap it. He could have flown Zod up, choked him into unconsciousness, hell, he could have covered his eyes with his hand.

And there's that it didn't change him in ant foreseeable way. He still kills people all the time.

Problem with the Flying Zod up Argument is that Zod is just as strong as Superman so he could have just held his weight down making it difficult for Superman to pull him up, and don't bullshit me that Superman is stupid strong in the comics because Comic Book Super is established to move planets.

Man of Steel Superman has not been showcased to do feats of stregnth that ridiculous.

You say that Zod is strong enough to resist Superman lifting him with his magic powers of a biology that's used to lower gravity (which is an explanation that is both stupid and unneeded), but we'll never know, because Superman that didn't even try. And that's the point. He does almost nothing to stop Zod. There were a shit ton of other ways to go about stopping Zod, but Supes goes for the neck snap. And that just makes him look like a dick.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I agree with the OP, but not only was it too soon, it was sooo poorly executed.

For a last resort situation, there sure were a lot of things that could have been done other than neck snapping. Those dumbshit civilians could have, you know, walked out of the way. Superman could have turned his neck the other way, considering he had the power to snap it. He could have flown Zod up, choked him into unconsciousness, hell, he could have covered his eyes with his hand.

And there's that it didn't change him in ant foreseeable way. He still kills people all the time.

Problem with the Flying Zod up Argument is that Zod is just as strong as Superman so he could have just held his weight down making it difficult for Superman to pull him up, and don't bullshit me that Superman is stupid strong in the comics because Comic Book Super is established to move planets.

Man of Steel Superman has not been showcased to do feats of stregnth that ridiculous.

You say that Zod is strong enough to resist Superman lifting him with his magic powers of a biology that's used to lower gravity (which is an explanation that is both stupid and unneeded), but we'll never know, because Superman that didn't even try. And that's the point. He does almost nothing to stop Zod. There were a shit ton of other ways to go about stopping Zod, but Supes goes for the neck snap. And that just makes him look like a dick.

Why does it make him look like a dick? Why does killing your enemy that IS Evil, makes you evil?!

Am I evil for slaying a Dragon that's burning down village, eating innocent people and sheeps and cows?

 

[jademunky]

Well I believe Superman being like this is litirally to make him unlikable and killy becuase they are setting up Injustice universe.

Superman will be dictator of the world with the help of Darkseid because Lois died.

I've never actually played injustice but am a little leery whenever a video game plot is directly adapted to film. It's been attempted in earnestness many times and has worked exactly zero of them.

 

[DoPo]

Really Superman is that badguy in that Bar scene?

I hate this logic that enacted retribution against the bully makes you the bully. It pisses me off that when the victim acts against their abuser, the victim gets in trobule.

Wasn't Clark supposed to lay low at the time? That's what I thought about the bar scene - he didn't want to draw attention and didn't use his powers. He then goes and uses his powers and undoubtedly draws attention. Only that was never really followed through because the movie didn't care and tried it's best to paint him as Jesus. Yet it failed even at that using the bar scene.

 

[DoPo]

Well I believe Superman being like this is litirally to make him unlikable and killy becuase they are setting up Injustice universe.

Superman will be dictator of the world with the help of Darkseid because Lois died.

I've never actually played injustice but am a little leery whenever a video game plot is directly adapted to film. It's been attempted in earnestness many times and has worked exactly zero of them.

Wait, I thought the game itself was based on comics. So wouldn't the movies also be based on the comics?

 

[Bob_McMillan]

I agree with the OP, but not only was it too soon, it was sooo poorly executed.

For a last resort situation, there sure were a lot of things that could have been done other than neck snapping. Those dumbshit civilians could have, you know, walked out of the way. Superman could have turned his neck the other way, considering he had the power to snap it. He could have flown Zod up, choked him into unconsciousness, hell, he could have covered his eyes with his hand.

And there's that it didn't change him in ant foreseeable way. He still kills people all the time.

Problem with the Flying Zod up Argument is that Zod is just as strong as Superman so he could have just held his weight down making it difficult for Superman to pull him up, and don't bullshit me that Superman is stupid strong in the comics because Comic Book Super is established to move planets.

Man of Steel Superman has not been showcased to do feats of stregnth that ridiculous.

You say that Zod is strong enough to resist Superman lifting him with his magic powers of a biology that's used to lower gravity (which is an explanation that is both stupid and unneeded), but we'll never know, because Superman that didn't even try. And that's the point. He does almost nothing to stop Zod. There were a shit ton of other ways to go about stopping Zod, but Supes goes for the neck snap. And that just makes him look like a dick.

Why does it make him look like a dick? Why does killing your enemy that IS Evil, makes you evil?!

Am I evil for slaying a Dragon that's burning down village, eating innocent people and sheeps and cows?

No, obviously.

But Superman, with all his powers, is still a man. He hasn't even been Superman for long. It was what, a week? A few days?

Put yourself in his shoes. Would you, even if Zod was a complete bastard, be able to kill a guy with your own bare hands? I don't think I could. A decision like that needs to be a last resort.

And to be fair, Cavill sure acted like he was struggling and didn't want to do it, but the movie didn't show that. That's my point. Superman killing a guy is a special, momentous thing. The movie did not earn it at all. Supes should be desperate, fighting Zod for every inch. But all we got was a bit of wiggling around and the world's slowest head turn. Zod must have some killer neck muscles, because the line he made with his heat vision was geometrically perfect.

I have nothing against the idea of Superman being be forced to kill someone, but the execution was just absolute dogshit.

 

[Queen Michael]

Well I believe Superman being like this is litirally to make him unlikable and killy becuase they are setting up Injustice universe.

Superman will be dictator of the world with the help of Darkseid because Lois died.

I've never actually played injustice but am a little leery whenever a video game plot is directly adapted to film. It's been attempted in earnestness many times and has worked exactly zero of them.

Wait, I thought the game itself was based on comics. So wouldn't the movies also be based on the comics?

No, I'm pretty certain that the comics are based on the game. A tie-in.