The real significance of female protagonists

[Schadrach]

Side Note: Current Steam Community Sale voting options are "Casual - Puzzle" vs "Platformer - Female Protagonist." Since there is such a *huge* market that wants to see more female protagonists in games but can't seem to be bothered to actually buy the ones that exist, maybe they'll see it as worth at least clicking a button to support their position.

I did, but that has more to do with owning 3/4 of the "Casual - Puzzle" titles and $5 Tomb Raider sounding too good to pass up.

 

[bug_of_war]

I mean, nothing exactly lifts my skirt less than playing as yet ANOTHER dull white guy with a grumbly voice... and now there are FOUR of them.

This is probably the thing that annoys me most. People automatically assuming that the main character is gonna be dull. For fuck sake, let the game come out and play it before folding your arms, being grumpy and throwing around baseless accusations all because 1 feature was left out.

OT: Yes, it would be good PR for a large company like Ubisoft to have a female protagonist, and it may even lead to other companies doing the same. However, having said that Ubisoft have the right to make the game the way they want to make it, and if they don't want to put more money into the project and potentially have to delay the game then they shouldn't have to.

Keep fighting for games with female protagonists and what not, however don't chew on a game for not having a female protagonist.

 

[Trishbot]

I mean, nothing exactly lifts my skirt less than playing as yet ANOTHER dull white guy with a grumbly voice... and now there are FOUR of them.

This is probably the thing that annoys me most. People automatically assuming that the main character is gonna be dull. For fuck sake, let the game come out and play it before folding your arms, being grumpy and throwing around baseless accusations all because 1 feature was left out.

OT: Yes, it would be good PR for a large company like Ubisoft to have a female protagonist, and it may even lead to other companies doing the same. However, having said that Ubisoft have the right to make the game the way they want to make it, and if they don't want to put more money into the project and potentially have to delay the game then they shouldn't have to.

Keep fighting for games with female protagonists and what not, however don't chew on a game for not having a female protagonist.

I generalize "dull white guys" for a reason... because there is a substantial number of them, especially from Ubisoft. They keep touting Watch_Dog's Aiden Pearce as being a new gaming "icon", when he's SO bland and mundane, and don't even get me started on how they regressed with Sam Fisher, their really generic white leads in Far Cry, and a long history, from themselves and other developers, of having interchangeable gruff-voiced dull white leads growling their way through gaming. It wouldn't be its own trope at this point if it wasn't pervasive enough to be noticeable. I don't give them the benefit of the doubt, because they haven't proven to me yet that they can consistently deliver more than my modest expectations in likable protagonists.

Also, Ubisoft has the right to do whatever they want - they could make a game about a raging homophobic white guy who hates women and minorities if they wanted to - but I also have the right, as the consumer they're making games for, to request the things I would like them to make and the features I would like them to add (and how sad is it that "my gender" is considered a "feature" instead of something more substantial and respectable...)

I'm not attacking ANY game for having a male lead (that's 90% of the industry). However, I will attack the EXCUSE that women are "too much work" coming from one of the largest game developers on the planet with one of the most successful IPs of all time. The reasoning BEHIND the lack of a female character is what's offensive to me, not the lack of them in and of itself.

I mean, Hyrule Warriors has shown a game coming out soon with 83% of the revealed playable roster being women, all with unique designs, rigs, clothes, animations, attacks, moves, story moments, etc... I'm very glad they didn't go with the "oh, it's just too much trouble and effort" excuse, and it has my attention largely because of that fact. I finally can play a Zelda game as a strong woman! That's a selling point for someone like me (and I'm sure it is for thousands of other female gamers).

 

[Samm09]

This is a non issue in J gaming. Rather than the "illustrious" developers from this inane industry like Phil Fish spouting nonsense how Japanese gaming is garbage, they may want to reflect on how much originality is in the themes they employ for various games. In japan, there is nothing keeping the industry from selling female protagonists on a game, because even male gamers have a demand for this.

The western games industry is so obsessed and so self referencial nowadays, they overstep themselves and are running this whole thing into the ground. Gaming just plain sucks now, with a few exceptions that are berated for "underperforming" like Tomb Raider. Bloody absurd.

The execs are running the show now. And I assure you, the more control you give to these VPs and Marketing folk in this industry, the worse is yet to present itself.

Ubisoft is a disgrace and Watch_Dogs was a miserable dissapointment that managed to reset my expectations for the upcoming 10 years. I think I have this game somewhere, as with all the others. There is nothing new, so I'll just stop buying games altogether and start grinding what I own until every game bores the hell out of me. Which I expect to be a while since I don't have that much time to spend gaming anyhow. And yes, I love playing with girls. I made this foxy lady in Saints Row IV and I just can't put that game down because it is so self-indulging and silly. Watch_dogs would learn a great deal from it.

 

[Pogilrup]

]Just... let people make the game they wanna make. If someone feels like their story should have a male protagonist, then let them go. I rather them have four male characters than for them to shoehorn in a female character just for the sake of having a female character. It's like when people complain about too much white characters and want an ethnic one. It simply feels like they want an ethnic character simply for the sake of it rather than if or if not it'll work with the story/setting.

Why is it only okay to have an ethnic character if it "works with the story"? Why cant a person just be black, or asain, or native american? Why is having a white character unquestioned, but when it's of a different race, you need a reason or an excuse?

Except that. They create work, people cry that there's no enough females. They add females, they say they aren't good enough. It's a a lose/lose. We are talking about millions and millions of dollars here. Investments, and the risk isn't worth it. Unjustified hate is what it is.

Can you give me an example, of when it wasn't good enough? I've seen this mentioned a few times now, but honestly I can't think of a game where there was a female protagonist and the consensus was that the character wasn't good enough. Now, I can think of plenty of examples where the game itself wasn't good enough, like Remember Me or Amy, or when the female protagonist in question was clearly there purely to titillate, like Bloodrayne or any female character in Mortal Kombat. I think you and I can agree that complaints like that are very different than what's going on here though.

In regards to your first point, AC:U takes place in 1700's France. As in most of the people of that time period are old, fat, white dudes with pompadour wigs. Those kind of people. Having a native american roam about would make you stick out like a soar thumb.
Secondly, that mentality feeds back into the point Kira made. "MOARE FEMALE CHARACTERS!" Relases games with female characters. "ALL OF THEM ARE FAP MATERIAL!" Ethier you don't try or you're not good enough to those kind of people. I don't remeber the protag from Remember Me or Amy ONCE being overtly attractive to me. In the case of Amy though I attribute that partially to the entire game looking like ass. Remember Me's protag look good but she wasn't what I'd call "tittilating"

Assassin's Creed is fiction. Not only that, it is fiction in which Alien Space Magic exists. A black person running around in France at that time period would be the least historically inaccurate thing in the game.

And you havent answered my question at all, merely repeated what he said. You say that everyone is dismissing female characters as fap material without giving any examples of this happening unjustly.

AC (when not devling into the alien magic technology bollocks) is atleast trying to represnt an accurate world. The places and landmarks are certainly close to their original depictions.

Secondly this happens all the time when you hear certain SJW's spout about how 99% of all female characters ever are terrible just because....I dunno they're made by a man who understands how human emotions work? I can litterally only think of about 2 these kind of people have actually praised. And when someone is pleased with 2 attempts out of MILLIONS then it's not worth your damn time to go out of your way to please them

Assassin's Creed also had Native American Spirit magic, and Leonardo Davinci create manned flight. There's nothing accurate about their world.

You're still just throwing out more hyperbole, and you're really not helping your case with that "SJW" strawman crap. Give me a time when it actually happened without reason. Or do you seriously think a character like Lady Kitana is a strong female character?

The locations is rather realistic. What's going on in them is a bit out there but the setting and people in that setting are generally presented accuratley. Secondly, the rpbolem with that example is that Kitana is from a fighting game. NONE of the characters are or need to be good characters. They need to be visually disticnt from all the others. That's all they need. They are not designed to be deep strong characters. They are designed to not look like the backround and not look like another character, both of which Kitana does.

Then if "out there" situations like flight and magic are par for the course, than a female or african assassin should be almost mundane! And I'm glad we agree that Kitana is not a good female character. You still have yet to give me an example of a good female character the general opinion was critical. Surely it must be easy if it's happened millions of times, yes?

It's 1700's France. Having an african man running around blending in seamlessly isn't going to be consitent with the actual place and time period.

Neither are parkouring assassins with hidden, projectile arm-blades, but they seem to make that work just fine. Again, if there is magic and scientific developments years beyond the time period, why is having a black protagonist so absurd?

There's probably more then likely going to be female characters in the multiplayer aspect atleast. In the multiplayer to my knowledge you play as the same dude from singleplayer from your camera view. If you look at another player they're probably going to have a stock assasain model, which has a few females in it. And if you have some problem with the protagonist simply cuse they're white then I have an excellent idea. Go out, find some friends who know coding, and make your own damn game. It's simply annoying how people automatically write a character off as bad simply because they're white, in a time where the majority of the settings populations IS white. It's Ubisofts creative decision to design and model their protagonists how they wish. Demanding every game adhere to a checkbox of non-offense is a fast way to intellectual and creative stagnation. If you have some problem with playing a white protagonist simply because you're white you're exhibiting a racist attitude.

You all this talk of "diversity checkboxes" makes me just want to actually use such a list out of an impulse of rebellion should I ever make games.

 

[Erttheking]

Side Note: Current Steam Community Sale voting options are "Casual - Puzzle" vs "Platformer - Female Protagonist." Since there is such a *huge* market that wants to see more female protagonists in games but can't seem to be bothered to actually buy the ones that exist, maybe they'll see it as worth at least clicking a button to support their position.

I did, but that has more to do with owning 3/4 of the "Casual - Puzzle" titles and $5 Tomb Raider sounding too good to pass up.

I either already own those games or they are on a platform that I can't play (Fucking mac). So what do you suggest that I do now? Also you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about people.

 

[Nieroshai]

It doesn't work that way. These people spend years of blood sweat and tears. Then get shat on because they missed up that person with a vagina. And potentially lose money. Yeah, not worth it.

then they are in the wrong buisness...

its funny how people will get angry and even volitile towards developers (see Bioware) but as soon as its in regards to a female issue its all Sympathy...

hoesntly have you ever criticsed a work to the point where you used words like "fucking" or "bullshit"? many of us have

when you create a thing and send it out into the world it is open to criticism, thats a fact of life and it is the right of the audience to critue art, its a FUNDAMENTAL part of art, you can and will get criticied for EVERYTHING

now as a creator what criticism you take on board or dismiss is based on a number of things, weather the crtiic has good points, weather they understand your work or missed something, your own values, how open you are to criticism

ultimatly [b/]what you decide to take on board or discard is up to YOU first and foremost[/b] Ubisoft can take the recent outcry and act on it, justify it...or do nothing, this is not the same as rape or violence threats eather

I wrote a story that had a trans person charachter ,no ones read it obviously as its in my notebook, but lets say it had an audience and somone had issues with my portraly of Trans people, not being a Trans person myself and not knowing any I should be open to what they say, I don't HAVE to agree with everything but if they have a point I can't refute then I'd change it...because then I LEANRED something and as I creator I'd be better for it...but aparently thats an awful thing for the poor developers

Change your story now, I don't like what you did with it. It's my right as a consumer to demand this. I also hate that it didn't end like I thought it would. And your grammar isn't as good as the snippet you quoted. I don't care if this WAS your work, that you put time and money into; the fact that I don't like it means YOU have to change it. I don't care if I don't have to buy it, you must please me at all costs and I don't have the free will to vote with my cash!


...this is our current criticism of the game industry, not aimed at you, but to illustrate in another context exactly that which whom you quoted was trying to say. In my honest opinion, while studios do need to get their act together as far as PR, and more diversity would be nice, the internet has ruined gaming by turning nearly every member of the audience into an entitled prick who rambles how racist, sexist, and homophobic a studio is because of what they did not include in a game, or what some PR prick said without consulting anyone else who actually worked on it. Instead of changing the industry, our inane current form of neckbeard criticism only forces them to entrench deeper. Nothing will change until studios themselves change, and that change can only happen from within.

 

[spartandude]

]Just... let people make the game they wanna make. If someone feels like their story should have a male protagonist, then let them go. I rather them have four male characters than for them to shoehorn in a female character just for the sake of having a female character. It's like when people complain about too much white characters and want an ethnic one. It simply feels like they want an ethnic character simply for the sake of it rather than if or if not it'll work with the story/setting.

Why is it only okay to have an ethnic character if it "works with the story"? Why cant a person just be black, or asain, or native american? Why is having a white character unquestioned, but when it's of a different race, you need a reason or an excuse?

Except that. They create work, people cry that there's no enough females. They add females, they say they aren't good enough. It's a a lose/lose. We are talking about millions and millions of dollars here. Investments, and the risk isn't worth it. Unjustified hate is what it is.

Can you give me an example, of when it wasn't good enough? I've seen this mentioned a few times now, but honestly I can't think of a game where there was a female protagonist and the consensus was that the character wasn't good enough. Now, I can think of plenty of examples where the game itself wasn't good enough, like Remember Me or Amy, or when the female protagonist in question was clearly there purely to titillate, like Bloodrayne or any female character in Mortal Kombat. I think you and I can agree that complaints like that are very different than what's going on here though.

In regards to your first point, AC:U takes place in 1700's France. As in most of the people of that time period are old, fat, white dudes with pompadour wigs. Those kind of people. Having a native american roam about would make you stick out like a soar thumb.
Secondly, that mentality feeds back into the point Kira made. "MOARE FEMALE CHARACTERS!" Relases games with female characters. "ALL OF THEM ARE FAP MATERIAL!" Ethier you don't try or you're not good enough to those kind of people. I don't remeber the protag from Remember Me or Amy ONCE being overtly attractive to me. In the case of Amy though I attribute that partially to the entire game looking like ass. Remember Me's protag look good but she wasn't what I'd call "tittilating"

Assassin's Creed is fiction. Not only that, it is fiction in which Alien Space Magic exists. A black person running around in France at that time period would be the least historically inaccurate thing in the game.

And you havent answered my question at all, merely repeated what he said. You say that everyone is dismissing female characters as fap material without giving any examples of this happening unjustly.

AC (when not devling into the alien magic technology bollocks) is atleast trying to represnt an accurate world. The places and landmarks are certainly close to their original depictions.

Secondly this happens all the time when you hear certain SJW's spout about how 99% of all female characters ever are terrible just because....I dunno they're made by a man who understands how human emotions work? I can litterally only think of about 2 these kind of people have actually praised. And when someone is pleased with 2 attempts out of MILLIONS then it's not worth your damn time to go out of your way to please them

Assassin's Creed also had Native American Spirit magic, and Leonardo Davinci create manned flight. There's nothing accurate about their world.

You're still just throwing out more hyperbole, and you're really not helping your case with that "SJW" strawman crap. Give me a time when it actually happened without reason. Or do you seriously think a character like Lady Kitana is a strong female character?

The locations is rather realistic. What's going on in them is a bit out there but the setting and people in that setting are generally presented accuratley. Secondly, the rpbolem with that example is that Kitana is from a fighting game. NONE of the characters are or need to be good characters. They need to be visually disticnt from all the others. That's all they need. They are not designed to be deep strong characters. They are designed to not look like the backround and not look like another character, both of which Kitana does.

Then if "out there" situations like flight and magic are par for the course, than a female or african assassin should be almost mundane! And I'm glad we agree that Kitana is not a good female character. You still have yet to give me an example of a good female character the general opinion was critical. Surely it must be easy if it's happened millions of times, yes?

It's 1700's France. Having an african man running around blending in seamlessly isn't going to be consitent with the actual place and time period.

Neither are parkouring assassins with hidden, projectile arm-blades, but they seem to make that work just fine. Again, if there is magic and scientific developments years beyond the time period, why is having a black protagonist so absurd?

Not to mention that there were black people in france, sure they were vastly outnumbered by the white population but we should factor in that during the French Revolution they abolish slavery in the French Empire.... Ok Napoleon brings it back a few years later but they could have some pretty serious tensions and character development here.