The reason why open world gaming sucks.

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snekadid

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Mar 29, 2012
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More Fun To Compute said:
They should have time limits but people are pussies and complain. Things like time limits greatly enhance the feeling of engagement with worlds like this. The problem is that many people don't want to engage with the game and just want to fart around and have a laugh and it would take real effort to design for both. So we have cut scenes and quick time events to force people with low attention spans to engage. I blame the use of marijuana for this.
What are you talking about? Time limits do nothing but take you out of the game,ruining immersion and making you feel like you have a task to get done rather than a sense of something you have to do. Time limits are for time trials or singular events and should not be placed on the game world at large.
 

MiracleOfSound

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Jan 3, 2009
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More Fun To Compute said:
MiracleOfSound said:
Not on this thread, they don't.
I didn't say they were. I'm not sure that you have proved false equivalence here. The sort of argument I'm making is that group A might be the people who don't like the challenge of time limits and that group B might be people who think that every game should have a god mode because they don't like any challenge. And that both are part of group C which is people who I shouldn't offend because arguing for challenge that some people don't like in games is offensive. Group D, people posting in this thread, is not relevant in this case.
Strawmen, Strawmen everywhere! Enjoy your day, sir.
 

Loonyyy

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Considering the body of the text, your title is misleading. And I wish I had that picture of The Dude saying "That's just like, your opinion, man." Because that's what this boils down to. Yet another person trying to justify personal preference as objective fact. More accurate: "The reason I don't like open world gaming(Because I like urgent gogogogogo storytelling)"

As to your question, there are some open world games with time limits, but if you don't like that, I guess you can deal with it.

Open world games are enjoyable to some, and less to others, and if you're not finding them enjoyable: There's the metaphorical door. I hope it metaphorically hits you on the metaphorical way out.

Open world games tend to lose urgency. So what? Urgency only matters to plots which require urgency. Urgency is a crutch. Look at the campaigns of modern shooters. They've got faster and faster, more and more urgent, location hopping and running, never stopping to think. Piling hostage upon kidnapped VIP, upon Nuclear threat, upon butchered friend. That urgency is a crutch for poor writing. Raising the stakes mindlessly to maintain forward momentum.

Open world games work better when trying to set up an epic. Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, the Fallout series, tend to do this well. Rather than needing to run somewhere, you just need to do things. In fact, urgency in writing will also cost you player agency: you're inevitably being told to go here, do this etc. Which doesn't exactly do much for the "Main" character of a story.

Dead Rising is an interesting example (Referring specifically to the second, I haven't gotten to the first. Same principle). Of how not to do things. The urgency added by the ticking clock forces the player to complete the story, but the game also tries to play itself off as something fun, with inventive ways to kill zombies. So the player is split between fun gameplay, and the story. Which isn't a great place to be in, really. The game works better as the sandbox mode, or campaign, because for the story, you're managing several timers: Different groups of survivors, the stupid storyline, zombrex timers. Which is interesting in itself, but never really exploited. Rarely are you in possession of enough information to be forced to make difficult choices (You really have to have prior experience at the mission to know how long it takes to be able to make those decisions. So you either rescue everyone, or lose the game, you don't choose between groups of survivors deliberately, all that often), you just rescue pretty much everyone, and wait by the misssion objectives. The zombie slaughter with the custom weaponry typically takes place in sandbox mode, which does let the player have fun with the mechanics.

So the addition of timer centric stuff actively detracts from the fun of the sandbox. You get one or the other, and to me, the urgency or choices in a linear setting don't do as much for me as freedom.

Sandboxes make good exploration games, and make games more open, and generally more enjoyable, and allow greater amounts of content. If you like more linear progressions, that's fine, but I'm always going to prefer a good sandbox.
 

CleverCover

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Because no, time limits are the most horrible evil things a developer could put in an RPG designed for exploration. I don't even like the Elder Scrolls games and I understood that. I would have frothed at the mouth if there was a time limit in ME1. I know I have to hunt Saren, but I also want to jump off cliffs on the moon. DX Hated that mechanic in ME2 for the beginning missions.

You want to run around like a chicken without a head for a month and then play the story? Sure. Go ahead.
You want to run through the story feeling as if a wasted moment means the death of someone you know and love? You can do that too.

RPG's are games where you can do whatever the fuck you want. That's why people (I) love them and will continue to play them. If you want something more linear, there are games that cater to that need. Trade in your copy of Oblivion for something else.
 

More Fun To Compute

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MiracleOfSound said:
More Fun To Compute said:
MiracleOfSound said:
Not on this thread, they don't.
I didn't say they were. I'm not sure that you have proved false equivalence here. The sort of argument I'm making is that group A might be the people who don't like the challenge of time limits and that group B might be people who think that every game should have a god mode because they don't like any challenge. And that both are part of group C which is people who I shouldn't offend because arguing for challenge that some people don't like in games is offensive. Group D, people posting in this thread, is not relevant in this case.
Strawmen, Strawmen everywhere! Enjoy your day, sir.
I made a effort to explain my position logically and somehow that is a strawman of your position.

I'll have a bad day and there is nothing you can do to make it worse, thank you very much.
 

Loonyyy

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More Fun To Compute said:
MiracleOfSound said:
Not on this thread, they don't.
I didn't say they were. I'm not sure that you have proved false equivalence here. The sort of argument I'm making is that group A might be the people who don't like the challenge of time limits and that group B might be people who think that every game should have a god mode because they don't like any challenge. And that both are part of group C which is people who I shouldn't offend because arguing for challenge that some people don't like in games is offensive. Group D, people posting in this thread, is not relevant in this case.
He didn't bring up False Equivalence, so I'm not sure why you're evaluating his ability to prove it. He's correct to call your argument a Strawman, because you decided to condescendingly insinuate that he, and others, were arguing against challenge. Not at all.

They're arguing against a specific form of challenge, mainly because it isn't one that makes the game more difficult, it just adds in a specific challenge: Have fun and explore, or be able to complete the game. That's not a good challenge. You're liable to miss content whilst running over to the other content. You don't have to hate challenge to not want silly challenges. Although the underlying "More-Hardcore than though" sentiment is hilarious. You can make a difficult game, without putting in silly challenges, and not including those, doesn't make you somehow fearful of challenge (See Guppy's hilarious post).

Then, you use a non-sequitur and refer to the popularity of cheats and walkthroughs, and references to game journalists who like easy modes and such, as an argument against his position, which is entirely what he wasn't talking about, hence "Not in this thread.". Hooray for more Strawmanning!

It's amusing that you changed tack completely once called on it though. It takes a lot more effort to try using rational argument than condescension, and watching you try to categorise people into opinions that you could be talking about rather than the person you're addressing is just adorable. It's like a Straw-castle, filled with the straw men.
 

BloatedGuppy

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More Fun To Compute said:
I made a effort to explain my position logically and somehow that is a strawman of your position.
It's hard to explain your position logically when the position you assume upon entering the thread is that time limits are essential to creating tension and that people who don't enjoy said tension are "pussies" who just like to complain. That's a difficult position to establish, you know. Using logic.

I agree with you that removing time frames from games comes at the cost of tension, unless there is some heavy willing suspension of disbelief going on. This isn't unique to open world games, linear games are shackled to the same problem. It goes beyond just "I have all the time in the world to do this" though. If you can't suspend your disbelief that far, you're going to have a hard time suspending it in order to cover realities like being able to save and reload, or game the mechanics, or any of the other million conveniences that make games less irritating to play at the cost of ratcheting up the tension.

Now, you can establish tension and create the ILLUSION of a white knuckle time frame through good storytelling and use of music/pacing. There are a few games that do this well. Even an open world game could do this, although the experience of "being short on time" would be limited to a particular quest or mission.

What you haven't established is that time limits = challenge, as if A) the only reason someone might dislike a time limit is because they found it challenging (as opposed to annoying) and B) there are no other ways to challenge a player...either physically (twitch) or mentally (strategy)...other than strapping an arbitrary time limit onto their recreational activity. You certainly haven't established that people who dislike time limits are "pussies who like to complain", not that you ever could have established that to begin with. The easiest thing to do would have been to go back and remedy that original statement, instead of spending two pages willfully defending it while acting confused as to why people have assumed an argumentative tone with you.
 

More Fun To Compute

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I wish MiracleOfSound could just be left to speak for himself instead of having to listen to his greek chorus.

@Loonyyy; I used false equivalence to describe his use of what people are saying in this thread to dismiss my views on what people have said in the past about the subject. As in the only reason why I could see what people are saying here as being the limit is an argument based on false equivalence between his position and theirs. If you want to say that he is not arguing against challenge because "bad challenge" is not challenge at all then I don't agree. I'm saying that that where call is made is a personal thing. If it seems like I am changing tack halfway through and am "on the run" then please consider that I might actually just be trying to explain myself and that words that people put into my mouth or caricatures people paint of me might not be what I intend to argue for.

@BloatedGuppy; So just by using one word I completely disarmed your ability to think rationally? Get over it. Don't come at me your hilarious joker attitude to cover for the fact that you take small irrelevant things way too seriously. Time limits as challenge is basically adding a scarcity laying on top of the game. If you use the time is money metaphor then would you think it was acceptable to start every RPG with infinite money or infinite any other scarce resource? In terms of exploration time limits are important. If you were to seriously set about making a game that covered exploration themes then time would be important as would things like food and survival. Consider making a game about a shipwreck. You would have a limited time to salvage wreckage before it was lost, you would have limited to build shelter before bad weather, you would have a limited time to build a beacon before a plane passes by. Without time you just have a list of mundane busy work tasks with no consequence and no tense adventure story.
 

BloatedGuppy

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More Fun To Compute said:
@BloatedGuppy; So just by using one word I completely disarmed your ability to think rationally? Get over it. Don't come at me your hilarious joker attitude to cover for the fact that you take small irrelevant things way too seriously.
Sigh.

No, by assuming a ridiculous and indefensible position, you have disengaged my desire to take your thoughts on the subject particularly seriously. I'm not sure how you get "I take irrelevant things too seriously" when you were the individual who hand waved an enormous cross section of people as "pussies" because they disliked time limits in games. An idiom about people living in glass houses springs to mind. How does that one go again?

I'm aware of the perceived benefits of employing time limits in games, as I believe I made clear in my previous post on the subject. This is not a question of me failing to comprehend why you like time limits. This is a question of you failing to comprehend why people do not. Or at the very least, feigning a lack of comprehension in order to obstinately assume a position on the internet.
 

natster43

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I could see it working if it was either a core part of the game or just for certain missions and you were told before starting them, and that failure of this timeline doesn't just give you either a game over or an unwinnable game. If the time mechanic wasn't either of those, it would just be annoying. Dead Rising has a time limit system for the entire game, and personally it is my favorite game series. You can pretty much do everything you want within the time limit, especially in 2.
 

More Fun To Compute

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BloatedGuppy said:
More Fun To Compute said:
@BloatedGuppy; So just by using one word I completely disarmed your ability to think rationally? Get over it. Don't come at me your hilarious joker attitude to cover for the fact that you take small irrelevant things way too seriously.
Sigh.

No, by assuming a ridiculous and indefensible position, you have disengaged my desire to take your thoughts on the subject particularly seriously. I'm not sure how you get "I take irrelevant things too seriously" when you were the individual who hand waved an enormous cross section of people as "pussies" because they disliked time limits in games. An idiom about people living in glass houses springs to mind. How does that one go again?

I'm aware of the perceived benefits of employing time limits in games, as I believe I made clear in my previous post on the subject. This is not a question of me failing to comprehend why you like time limits. This is a question of you failing to comprehend why people do not. Or at the very least, feigning a lack of comprehension in order to obstinately assume a position on the internet.
Not really sure why you not taking my thoughts seriously should be such a huge "in your face" issue for me. There are plenty of people whose thoughts I do not take seriously but I don't really hound them so much.

What responsibility do I have for explaining why people don't like time limits? Not much at all really. I can empathise to a certain extent but not with the harsh absolutist position against the concept to the point of saying that it should never be used in a game because there are other challenges that can be put in games. You could use that same position for any challenge. Like, I think that anagrams should be completely removed from scrabble and replaced with maths puzzles because anagrams make me angry and I can't do them, so there is no excuse.
 

omicron1

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The ticking timer sounds like the antithesis of a good design idea - if it just leads to a Nonstandard Game Over.
However: if (say) something like Oblivion's Oblivion Gates were tied to a timer, and as time went on more and more demons covered the land (and, one assumes, towns fell and the path to stop them grew more and more desperate)... That would make for an interesting design. A "the longer you wait, the harder it gets" sort of thing.

This is hard to make content for. But it would be relatively trivial in a procedural game - think Din's Curse with a team of 500 rather than just one guy.
 

thejackyl

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It does break immersion a little bit, when the world is doomed unless you do something, and you can take 10 in game years to do it, it makes you doubt the severity of your mission.

Now, I think the change to the original Fallout's time limit (It's been like 8 years since I played it, and it won't run on my computer anymore) didn't the change not remove the time limit, but change the penalty. (Originally it was game over, after the patch mutants found the vault.)

Now, I'm not saying time limits are a good thing. It's the one thing that I absolutely HATE about the Dead Rising series. I like doing EVERYTHING, but when I only have time to do less than 50% it really ticks me off, and after I stop trying to do everything I'm stuck with waiting for a timer to count down before I can move the story.

I think the best way to do it would be to get rid of a time cycle, or at least don't keep track of how many in-game days you spent doing things, and do something like:

"Day" 1: Main quest and side quests a,b,c,d are open
"Day" 2: Starts when main quest in "day" one is finished. Opens up more of the main quest, closes side quests a,b and opens side quest e,f
"Day" 3: Continues like above pattern.

That way your time progression is based on the main quest. There's no real time limit, and you still feel the urgency on side-quests at least because if you advance the story too far, they fail.

It's how I think they should have done Dead Rising, but perhaps keep the time limit for Katie's Zombrex Vaccine (since that time limit made sense, and wasn't too punishing, and didn't end the game.)
 

BloatedGuppy

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More Fun To Compute said:
Not really sure why you not taking my thoughts seriously should be such a huge "in your face" issue for me. There are plenty of people whose thoughts I do not take seriously but I don't really hound them so much.
I've replied to you something on the order of 4-5 times on an internet forum, at the high cost of 3-5 minutes of typing. If that constitutes "hounding" to you I am very sorry. This is a discussion forum. If you prefer, you can amend all your posts with a disclaimer that only people who agree with you are to respond, and anything else will be characterized as "hounding".

More Fun To Compute said:
What responsibility do I have for explaining why people don't like time limits? Not much at all really.
You're the one said you made an effort to explain your position logically. You are correct, you have no responsibility to be logical or support your arguments. This is an internet forum, not a graduate thesis.

More Fun To Compute said:
I can empathise to a certain extent but not with the harsh absolutist position against the concept to the point of saying that it should never be used in a game because there are other challenges that can be put in games. You could use that same position for any challenge. Like, I think that anagrams should be completely removed from scrabble and replaced with maths puzzles because anagrams make me angry and I can't do them, so there is no excuse.
I would never claim they "should never be used", but I certainly do not like them, and the reason I don't like them has nothing to do with the fact they are "challenging". As I rather sarcastically pointed out earlier in the thread, there are a great many ways one could add challenge to a game that wouldn't necessarily be to that game's benefit. I don't view "challenge" as the sole, monolithic imperative of gaming, at the cost of all other considerations. Whenever I have encountered genuine time limits in the past, most particularly in RPGs, it has almost always been an irritating implementation.

A harsh absolutist position would be "Anyone who doesn't like time limits is a pussy who likes to complain". My position is "I don't generally care for them and in my experience their inclusion has harmed games more than it has helped", which is considerably less absolutist, and allows plenty of room for people to enjoy or not enjoy time limits in games without me calling them names or making sweeping assumptions about the nature of their character.

thejackyl said:
That way your time progression is based on the main quest. There's no real time limit, and you still feel the urgency on side-quests at least because if you advance the story too far, they fail.
I certainly don't have an issue with "pocket urgency", where A quest or A storyline has the pacing ratcheted up, and perhaps you're facing a time frame where there are regretful consequences to dallying. It tends to be terribly at odds with a game like, say, Skyrim, where the design of the world encourages you to poke around as thoroughly as possible before moving on, but there are plenty of other games where it would work beautifully. You just need to avoid a Fallout situation, where you play the game normally and suddenly it's "Lol out of time, GG".
 

AnarchistFish

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I hate time limits.

Anyway, what you said isn't a reason why open world gaming sucks, it's just something you personally don't like about the way most developers approach them.
 

scorptatious

The Resident Team ICO Fanboy
May 14, 2009
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wombat_of_war said:
scorptatious said:
Sounds like you've never played Fallout 1.

Yeah, it's not exactly a modern game, but it fits what you're describing.

You have 150 in game days to find a water chip for your vault. Although I'm pretty sure the game automatically ends if you fail. I don't know, I've never let that happen.
the funny part is that a later patch removed the time limit too because it annoyed people.
I think you're thinking about the second time limit in the game which involved...

the super mutants finding your vault

Because that was taken out in a later patch.
 

scorptatious

The Resident Team ICO Fanboy
May 14, 2009
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Insanity72 said:
scorptatious said:
Sounds like you've never played Fallout 1.

Yeah, it's not exactly a modern game, but it fits what you're describing.

You have 150 in game days to find a water chip for your vault. Although I'm pretty sure the game automatically ends if you fail. I don't know, I've never let that happen.
You've just tore me up inside, I was just about to post about how I hate time limits in games, forces you to do things when you want to do other things etc. etc. but then I see your post and what was I about to go do? Install Fallout collection and play Fallout 1 :(
Oh don't let the time limit stop you. That's actually plenty of time. Plus time only goes by when you're travelling across the map. When you're actually in someplace, time kinda stops. (Of course you can pass the time using the wait option) So you'll have plenty of time to explore to an extent.

It's a great game. Plus, it's only for the first half of the game. Once you get that done, the wasteland's your oyster.
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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Honestly, I think an open-world game with a sense of passing time could be really good, if done properly. One thing that always just seems a bit odd to me is that everything always feels like it's just happening on the same day (or night if there is, by chance, a day-night cycle), because there are very, very few games that use a calendar and take advantage of various dates.

Having recently played Persona 4 Golden (I know, pretty much the opposite of an open-world game), I think that having a calendar that spans a long period of time and offers a fair amount of leniency while still putting the pressure on during quests would be pretty fun. There would need to be some compromising of games mechanics - Maybe time doesn't pass while you're in a city or town, or passes slower when you're actually in a quest area than traveling along the world map. But I'd like to see an open-world game that actually takes advantage of the passage of time, and changes the world around you dynamically as time goes on.

But then, I'd also like to see greater character interaction with the environment beyond "LOL you just smacked into a wall shaped like a tree!" Environmental objects are rarely 100% static like they appear in most games (and yes, I know why they're usually static objects, but it doesn't change the fact that I wish it were different).
 

More Fun To Compute

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BloatedGuppy said:
You're the one said you made an effort to explain your position logically. You are correct, you have no responsibility to be logical or support your arguments. This is an internet forum, not a graduate thesis.
I don't get this. If I did take the time to build some detailed argument about why people don't like time limits then I would either get people just saying "strawman lol" or going on for ages about one word I used that they didn't like. So why not just stick to talking about what I think they can add and why I reject the idea that they can be easily be removed or replaced and should be.