The Red Dead Dilemma

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-Drifter-

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http://ps3.ign.com/articles/105/1059520p1.html

Apparently, Rockstar San Diego is not exactly what you'd call a great place to work. Very long hours, reduced vacation, no overtime pay, and a douche bag of a boss.

My dilemma is this: I am looking forward to Red Dead Redemption, more than any other 2010 game. It seems kind of wrong to buy it though. Should I really support a company that treats its employees like shit?

Has this affected your plans to buy the game (if you were planning on doing so?) What's your opinion on the story, and Rockstar San Diego?
 

Zero47

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Just buy it, or give the company the finger by downloading it. You're not achieving anything by not buying it anyhow so why not? Or, looking at it from another side, by not buying the game they get less money leads to more employees fired. I'm sure those employees rather have a shitty job that have no job at all.

I never planned to buy the game but yeah those employees deserve more.
 

-Drifter-

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Zero47 said:
Or, looking at it from another side, by not buying the game they get less money leads to more employees fired. I'm sure those employees rather have a shitty job that have no job at all.
Hmmm, fair enough. I'm hoping they actually listen to the requests of the wives.

PayJ567 said:
Wow, talk about learning from China. No in all seriousness I think Gun was one of the best cowboy games and would much rather see a sequel from that than from Rockstar again.
But... why? GUN... kinda sucked. It's not that I gave up on it too quickly, because I played for quite a while, but it just never got better. Bad animations, sound effects, writing, acting, floaty feeling controls, etc. I guess it's all a matter of opinion, but I just don't see what's to like.
 

TsunamiWombat

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That is troubling, this is the sort of shenanigans I wouldn't expect from RS. What you can do is what your doing now - spread this news. Ratchet the pressure on Rockstar to do something aobut it. Let them know we don't approve of the Bobby Kotick style of game making (Kotick famously said he liked to rely on fear and uncertainty and "took the fun out of making games").

And yes, don't buy it. Until the situation is resolved.

EDIT: Also, is there anyway we can ask the Newsroom to cover this officially?

Double Edit: Bookmark this thread and keep the discussion going to increase visibility to site traffic
 

TsunamiWombat

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Here is a copy of the letter off Gamasutra:

To whomever it may concern,

In response to the unfortunate circumstances, some wives of Rockstar San Diego employees have collected themselves to assert their concerns and announce a necessary rejoinder, in the form of an immediate action to ameliorate conditions of employees.

The turning for the worse came approximately in the month of March of 2009. Till present, the working conditions persists to deteriorate as employees are manipulated by certain hands that wield the reigns of power in Rockstar San Diego. Furthermore, the extent of degradation employees have suffered extends to their quality of life and their family members. Though it is presumed, this unfortunate circumstance is due largely to ignorance and unawareness of most, with enlightened knowledge, action must be taken to protect the rights of employees and those who depend on them. Realizing that such broad claims could hardly spark any interest to take a stand, a better illustration of the wrongs made unto Rockstar San Diego workers is necessary. Futhermore, the detailed descriptions about to be given can serve as a starting point as it will provide a clearer direction for change.

Initially, as work pressure in the office increases, so do the stress levels of employees. Recently, with the amount of stress that has been built up, there have been physical manifestations caused by stress making health a concern. It is known that some employees have been diagnosed with depression symptoms and at least one among them is acknowledged to have suicidal tendencies. These will not be ameliorated with a full time masseuse and will only worsen if no change to improve conditions take place and managers continue with their dishonesty of deadlines. There are understandably times when crunching in work is needed and extended working time is expected. However; as with all systems known to man, there must always be an effort for balance. Ergo, where there are times of acceleration, there are other times of deceleration in order to recuperate. This is not being practiced though, and instead of valued employees, a sentiment grows that they have lost not only the sense of being valued but turned into machines as they are slowly robbed of their humanity. The managers at Rockstar San Diego continue in their dishonesty, pushing their employees to the brink promising temporariness fully equipped with the knowledge of another deadline just around the corner. The reigns whip again, and it becomes mandatory to work close to twelve hours a day including Saturdays, regardless if an employee has finished all his duties prior. These, yes all these are horrendous, yet what makes it unacceptable has yet to come. The fact that these conditions, the same ones that have been proven time and time again to worsen the mental, physical and emotional parts of employees, are also met with further obstruction of employees rights. That of even any effort to retain any health still owned by the employee by seeking medical attention on a Saturday, because on Sundays most medical offices are closed, they must call in sick. Furthermore, not only is it not received with sympathy and understanding rather the must endure an attitude presented to them that they pose a hindrance! No, such core hours step outside the law and will not be accepted as the norm!

In the last years, there have also been many cuts on benefits despite the increasing demands on employees. After dedicated hard work on a project, weeks of comp time were offered as a reward and illustration of appreciation and understanding. Far from what is currently being met by the employees after nearly a year of constant strenuous activity. Little is there to motivate continuation as they also have lost a free vacation week between Christmas and New Year. Without time to recuperate and no efforts made to alleviate the stress of such conditions would procure on an employee after a period time, serious health concerns. Yet, now the health concern becomes another financial concern as the stripping of medical benefits surfaces to realization. It becomes rather worse rather than better as employees gain experience and become "senior". Instead of appreciation, numerous non-exempt designers and artists have had their overtime pay cut as a result for being "too senior". Looking to upper management provides no comfort rather the contrary. With unsuitable behavior from a newly promoted studio manager that vulgarly speaks the F word in most sentences and those who refuse to look at the workers' faces as they pass in the hall, it is clear their attempt to ignore the injustice they have implemented on their once valued and appreciated employees. Perhaps it should be them who explain to our children and loved ones the absence of their increasingly frustrated fathers.

Yet and still, there is more to be said of the working conditions that Rockstar San Diego employees have had to suffer. While managing to endure through the trying times, they still were hit with more blows. Again balance is denied, as working conditions worsened with no appreciation. Working harder, longer, faster, yet there was never a guarantee of a bonus nor if there was any earned, when they will be received! Moreover, bonuses could significantly be reduced based on ANYTHING management comes up with, while the employee would have no way to know about it. Thus bringing to light, the current Rockstar management has grown a thirst for power as it enables itself to grow in the Rockstar's structure. Besides bonuses, financial appreciation has lacked in other aspects as well. For four consecutive years, salary raises have not adjusted properly to cover inflation. This is especially unjust to those who significantly contribute to projects. Further than unappreciative, employees are disrespected when lied to as a whole on how Rockstar games does not generate money and as claims of justification for unappreciated employees are made pointing to the deficit, meanwhile the last Grand Theft Auto game made over a billion dollars of revenue. ?Over a billion dollars of revenue?, so where is the recognition and appreciation to those of whom, without them, such success would not have been made?

Conclusively, if these working conditions stay unchanged in the upcoming weeks, preparation will be made to take legal action against Rockstar San Diego. This is the course that naturally presents itself, as either these conditions were manufactured from unawareness and actions to improve conditions will prove such innocence. Or if no action is seen after this letter, it clear that other aspects are the cause of the deteriorated conditions of Rockstar San Diego employees and must be further addressed. Rest assure, all that is desired is compensation for health, mental, financial, and damages done to families of employees.

With all due respect,

Determined Devoted Wives of Rockstar San Diego employees.
I also suggest you read the comments at the page in question

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RockstarSpouse/20100107/4032/Wives_of_Rockstar_San_Diego_employees_have_collected_themselves.php

As it offers a plethora of backround information from people actually involved in the issue.
 

Liberaliterr

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Wait.. so you think the employees are being treated badly with less vacation time and more working hours and yet you don't want to reward their effort even though you are anticipating the game? Just buy it and reward their hard work, it is what will be paying their wages after all.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
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This is a multy-million dollar game company. What did you expect?

Just because they're called Rockstar doesn't mean they're not a corporation
 

comadorcrack

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PayJ567 said:
Wow, talk about learning from China. No in all seriousness I think Gun was one of the best cowboy games and would much rather see a sequel from that than from Rockstar again.
Gun FTW.

Not perfect, but that why I loved it
 

rimbuk

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I worked at Angel Studios/Rockstar San Diego for 9.5 years. I was on Midnight Club for about 7 of those years before they disbanded the team and moved everyone left onto Red Dead.

Believe me, the people on the team don't want Rockstar to make a single penny from the project. Their biggest fear is that Rockstar will be rewarded for making people work 65+ hr weeks for a year straight and will continue to do that in the future.
Its not likely to make money anyway. The rumors around the studio are that it will end up costing over $100 million, which would require over 5 million sales at full price just to make the investment back.

And even if it did make money or sell well, the team won't see any part of that. There are 200+ people working on it, from all the different studios. None of them are expecting anything more than a minor completion bonus.
Take a look at Midnight Club. It has been a great money maker for Rockstar over the years. The last iteration (Midnight Club Los Angeles) has sold somewhere over 2 million, I believe, and didn't cost all that much to make. At this point, it's profitable. None of that team recieved any royalties based on sales like they were promised. In fact, most of the senior people on that team are no longer with the company. Some were fired (we joke about it being because they were competent workers), others quit.
Most of those who quit did so because, instead of turning around and re-using the great racing engine that the team had worked 3 years to create (actually, much of the technology had been iterated on for the last 8-10yrs), Rockstar decided to throw away the teams racing engine and start over with the GTA engine and driving physics. It was a slap in the face and showed zero respect for all their hard work.

Many of the people still at Rockstar believe Red Dead Redemption is the studios last hurrah, and that the studio will be shut down within 6 months. And why not? When new management moved in last year, they were all told that R*SD was by far the most expensive studio and they had to cut back. And cut back they did, but only for the 'lowly' workers.
Management still enjoyed great perks: new offices with bigger/better monitors and laptops, limos to take them to airports, great luxurious condos or houses rented for them whenever they had to travel.
The single biggest joke is that they built a huge office for the new studio president, but someone thought it was too small. So as soon as they finished, they tore down one wall and extended the office another 3 feet. Seriously, that happened. We all laughed that those 3 feet equated to about 2 yrs of donuts for the whole studio on fridays (one of the many perks they took away to save money).
 

rimbuk

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they wont be rewarded for any of their hard work. Any and all money will go to management.
 

Ziltoid

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That is too bad, I was really looking forward to this game. Well if it gets good enough reviews maybe I'll pick it up used later, definitely don't want to support that kind of treatment of employees.
 

TsunamiWombat

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Code Monkey over at Gamasutra replied to my suggestion that the consumers boycott the product, offering a different take.

Andrew, I believe a boycott of the game we developers at R* SD are producing will not help to improve our situation, rather it may make things worse, but I appreciate your sentiment nonetheless. I believe many of us at the studio are putting a massive amount of love into the game we are creating, despite the often questionable working environment, in the hopes that massive sales of such a well-made product will give us all more leverage to exact a positive change in overall quality of life at the jobs we still love.

As a R* employee for a certain amount of years, let me first say that I feel like a proud citizen of my clan, but I like many of my peers seek a reprieve from the issues that the wives have boldly brought to the media's attention. I suppose I've been one to personally let things slide a lot over the last few months as I work many long hours, many of which I feel have been somewhat forced upon me, because I love my job so much, and every second I spend in my chair in front of my screen is only a second that comes completely natural to me. I like to make games, and I like to solve game problems. That being said, I also have a very supportive significant other half, and we have no children to feed and spend time with. Also because I'm in fairly good health, I don't find myself complaining about quality of life so much as I may complain of other issues at the studio that directly affect me. But I also do have close friends at the studio who have had their health and lives deteriorated in some way, and whether or not the long hours have directly contributed to these ailments, it certainly hasn't helped. And just because I may feel just fine today doesn't mean I'll still feel fine tomorrow or months down the road when it all catches up to me. And I acknowledge the day we have a child of our own may be a day of reckoning.

The blaming finger can be pointed in various directions here, but here's my take on the situation: We're producing a fantastic game right now, but in times past, it seemed to have little in the way of direction or conception. If it did indeed have these attributes, they were largely lost upon the majority of the development team, and many of us had little knowledge of what kind of product we were actually trying to put out there. I think we all do now, but it's in no thanks at all to any concerted effort whatsoever to actively motivate the team and evangelize the product to the developers themselves. I do believe that many of us didn't see how what we were doing could be important when we didn't really know what kind of game we're supposed to be making. Ultimately, I think we've all sort of "figured it out" and things started falling into place, but at the same time, I think this collective realization has put the pressure on all of us, management included, that we really need to nail this thing and get it out on shelves on time. There were extended core hours, frustrations rising, and then a false promise of the dropping of mandatory Saturdays, which seemed to last for about three such Saturdays.

But, perhaps an unsung root of the problems we face is a technical one, where many hours of productivity are wasted by everyone just waiting to get a build of the game that actually runs every time we need to update anything. Without getting too technical, lets just say that most of us are not happy with our build pipeline, and there are hundreds of errors and showstoppers that slow the game iteration down very significantly, in addition to many thousands of warnings that developers have littered about in both the build pipeline and the actual game itself for what we would assume are valid reasons, that pop up and nag, but there seems to be little effort on the part of the technical leads to enforce that these warnings be addressed. This I believe has brought us to where we are today. If these problems were minimized from the start, the game would have progressed much more quickly, and there would not be this frantic realization of being behind schedule and over-budget in the last year of development.

What Bitter PartyOfMany says about the "boys in New York" is also spot-on. For years there seemed to be indifference on the part of the big wigs everybody knows are really in charge, and the product never seemed to have true leaders. Directives come from people local to San Diego, when months later they are overridden arbitrarily by New York folks and work gets re-done, until they lose interest again or change their minds. Then of course we suffer their sustained scrutiny and sudden interest in what we're doing only in the last few months of development, and the weight and power they command often intimidates many of the leads at R* SD to the point where they may unnecessarily impose unreasonable expectations on the development team for the completion of a particular feature or bug fix, which may often not be universally agreed upon as particularly important.

When it's all said and done, I love my studio, I love my game, and I love my team, and I wouldn't give this up for the world. I just would like to see things improve for all of us, including our management.
I still suggest you all go over there and read for yourself.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RockstarSpouse/20100107/4032/Wives_of_Rockstar_San_Diego_employees_have_collected_themselves.php
 

Yog Sothoth

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I'll still buy it... All companies engage in dodgy & immoral behavior in one way or another if you look hard enough, it's just a part of living in a capitalist society IMO...

Every single job I've had treats the lowest level employees like crap. They're resources to be used up and tossed out when they've outlived their usefulness. Sure, it sucks, but what are you gonna do?

If that sort of thing really bothers you, boycotting one game not only doesn't make a lick of difference, but it's totally inconsistent if you continue to buy games from other developers & publishers.

EA had some similar problems brought to light a couple of years ago... Ever buy any of their games?
 

TsunamiWombat

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Yog Sothoth said:
I'll still buy it... All companies engage in dodgy & immoral behavior in one way or another if you look hard enough, it's just a part of living in a capitalist society IMO...

Every single job I've had treats the lowest level employees like crap. They're resources to be used up and tossed out when they've outlived their usefulness. Sure, it sucks, but what are you gonna do?

If that sort of thing really bothers you, boycotting one game not only doesn't make a lick of difference, but it's totally inconsistent if you continue to buy games from other publishers.

EA had some similar problems brought to light a couple of years ago... Ever buy any of their games?
Yes but EA got it's wrist slapped in court to the tune of 1.9 million dollars for that.
 

Yog Sothoth

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TsunamiWombat said:
Yes but EA got it's wrist slapped in court to the tune of 1.9 million dollars for that.
Interesting, I hadn't heard the follow up on that...

My argument extends beyond the gaming industry however... How do you think the employees are treated at the restaurants where you eat? Or the workers who built your car, your computer or your home? What about the workers who grow & harvest your food?

Anyone here work in an office? Ever think about the people who build the cubicles and other office furniture? I worked in that industry for a number of years... 14 to 16 hour days for low pay are the norm. No benefits, insurance or payed time off are offered. Missing a day or two of work due to exhaustion or sickness will probably result in termination.

Life sucks; get a fucking helmet...

EDIT: I have very little sympathy for anyone who get's to sit in a comfy office chair in front of a computer all day at work. Go spend a 15 hour day doing back breaking hard labor, then come talk to me...
 

scnj

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I'm still getting the game. Ultimately, this is something they've put a lot of hard work into and to turn around and not buy it when I'd already planned to would just seem insulting.
 

Lemon Of Life

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I thought Rockstar were the good guys...

Well, I'm getting it anyway, looks amazing. I shall shed a tear to the brave souls who made it.
 

Nmil-ek

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Yog Sothoth said:
TsunamiWombat said:
Yes but EA got it's wrist slapped in court to the tune of 1.9 million dollars for that.
Interesting, I hadn't heard the follow up on that...

My argument extends beyond the gaming industry however... How do you think the employees are treated at the restaurants where you eat? Or the workers who built your car, your computer or your home? What about the workers who grow & harvest your food?

Anyone here work in an office? Ever think about the people who build the cubicles and other office furniture? I worked in that industry for a number of years... 14 to 16 hour days for low pay are the norm. No benefits, insurance or payed time off are offered. Missing a day or two of work due to exhaustion or sickness will probably result in termination.

Life sucks; get a fucking helmet...

EDIT: I have very little sympathy for anyone who get's to sit in a comfy office chair in front of a computer all day at work. Go spend a 15 hour day doing back breaking hard labor, then come talk to me...
That about sums it up, spend the day unpacking stacks of papers and magazines, sorting, wrapping and cleaning 8 hours a day then I'll give a shit about programmers frowning that they have to work a few hours overtime.
 

ZeroDotZero

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-Stranger- said:
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/105/1059520p1.html

Apparently, Rockstar San Diego is not exactly what you'd call a great place to work. Very long hours, reduced vacation, no overtime pay, and a douche bag of a boss.
Well, my cousin, who works at Rockstar Leeds went to San Diego from his boss's reccomendation, and while he said the hours were long, he said the attitude was extremely lax, and that he had been working harder in England. From the sound of it, the boss doesn't work their employees that hard.