The red pill movie. A 0?!

[Lopende Paddo]

So I just watched the red pill movie and I'm wondering what opinions people have about the movie. When thinking this I usually go directly to metacritic. I was surprised at the "professional reviews", one 5 (fair enough seems objective although I disagree about the part where the "bile" isn't addressed) and two 0's ?!

Maybe the two reviewers who gave the doc a 0 didn't like the subject matter but than still one might think that at least the interview style, cinematography or sound design would get more than a 0. I mean seriously a doc that has a black screen, no sound and where you are forced to watch it for 2 hours would be a 0. Anything with any content whether good or bad deserves more than a 0.

Ride to hell retribution gets an equivalent 0.5 in its lowest professional review (a 4.5 in it's highest) and a 1.9 average. And that game was bad...

I've seen the movie and it is clearly not that badly made to deserve a 0 and clearly only gets said 0 because of some spiteful vendetta. It seems very dishonest to me.

So now I'm wondering who saw this film and what score you would give it between 1 and 10. Do you believe it deserves a 0 and if you do why?

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Do I want to even type what that is into my search-engine history?

 

[Lopende Paddo]

It depends if you want to see a documentary which is surrounded by controversy made by a feminist about the men's rights movements. Although I doubt that many people would accept that she ever was a feminist. Like a lot of Jews would rather not admit Norman Finkelstein is a Jew.

 

[fletch_talon]

I havent seen this film, but I'm sure it deserves a zero.

You can be as brilliantly artistic as you like when you film someone taking an incredibly painful shit. But I'm still not watching it, even if the soundtrack and set design was amazing...

OK maybe if it was narrated by Morgan Freeman.

And this is from someone who thinks men's rights are as important as women's. I just don't like the association with the red pill movement. As if that group was anything but a detriment to the ultimate goal of near equality (truly symmetrical equality being an impossibility due to inherent physical differences in genders).

 

[Zontar]

made by a feminist about the men's rights movements. Although I doubt that many people would accept that she ever was a feminist.

Well she did abandon feminism and joined the MRAs while making it as a result of her work, so there's probably a not-too-unfounded belief that it's a legitimate danger to the narrative.

I mean sure in theory feminists and MRAs aren't inherently opposed, but the reality just doesn't play out that way.

 

[Lopende Paddo]

made by a feminist about the men's rights movements. Although I doubt that many people would accept that she ever was a feminist.

Well she did abandon feminism and joined the MRAs while making it as a result of her work, so there's probably a not-too-unfounded belief that it's a legitimate danger to the narrative.

I mean sure in theory feminists and MRAs aren't inherently opposed, but the reality just doesn't play out that way.

Well. in her own words she isn't an MRA but she no longer calls herself a feminist either. Also take into account that maybe her believes are stronger than might seem, considering she has done a movie about gay issues (The Right to Love: An American Family) and one about woman's issues in the past (Daddy I do [about abstinence only sex education]).

Maybe she didn't throw out all her believes and the ones she did abandon went after questioning them and finding them lacking when held next to a bigger picture. That's what I understood of it anyway, would have to ask her to know her motivations without a doubt.

EDIT: Also dawned on me that MRA and Feminists , as you indicated, probably aren't opposed as long as they are not the extremists of their respective group. Extremists always have the loudest voice in society creating a clear misrepresentation of both groups, both groups then see the "opposing" group as an extremist movement where after both groups become more extreme in general trying to counter the perceived threat reaffirming their opinions about each other.

I havent seen this film, but I'm sure it deserves a zero[...]I just don't like the association with the red pill movement.

Makes me wonder if those two reviewers thought the same thing. Also makes me wonder, if this movie was clearly a movie to take down the red pill idea a peg, would you still agree with a 0 score without seeing it?

 

[jademunky]

Can the OP give us a quick summary of the film? I ask because there is very little chance of me actually watching it. I just read the cracked article about the red pill guys and I think I have all the info I need about the movement itself.

Quite honestly, I don't even want to look it up on Imdb due to me using my workplace WiFi atm.

 

[fletch_talon]

.

I havent seen this film, but I'm sure it deserves a zero[...]I just don't like the association with the red pill movement.

Makes me wonder if those two reviewers thought the same thing. Also makes me wonder, if this movie was clearly a movie to take down the red pill idea a peg, would you still agree with a 0 score without seeing it?

Being human I like to see people I disagree with get what I consider their just desserts. So probably not.

But much like "red pill" takes men's rights too far this hypothetical documentary could go too far the other way.

We already have some feminists calling MRA misogyny by another name. And some MRA conflating feminism and misandry. The end result of this are feminists looking like they want men to suffer and MRA groups looking like they think women are the source of the worlds woes.

 

[Lopende Paddo]

Can the OP give us a quick summary of the film? I ask because there is very little chance of me actually watching it. I just read the cracked article about the red pill guys and I think I have all the info I need about the movement itself.

Quite honestly, I don't even want to look it up on Imdb due to me using my workplace WiFi atm.

"The Red Pill chronicles Jaye?s journey beginning as a skeptical feminist investigating what she believes to be a hate movement. She goes on to discover that the movement is different from what she expected and begins to question her own views on gender, power, and privilege. The film discusses numerous issues facing men and boys such as male suicide rates, workplace fatalities and high-risk jobs, false allegations of rape, military conscription, lack of services for male victims of domestic violence and rape, higher rates of violent victimization, issues concerning divorce and child custody, disparity in criminal sentencing, disproportionate funding and research on men's health issues, educational inequality, societal tolerance of misandry, and men's lack of reproductive rights.[1][2][3] It includes interviews with men's rights activists and those supportive of the movement, such as Paul Elam, founder of A Voice for Men; Harry Crouch, president of the National Coalition for Men; Warren Farrell, author of The Myth of Male Power; and Erin Pizzey, who started the first domestic violence shelter in the modern world. It also includes interviews with feminists critical of the movement, such as Ms. magazine executive editor Katherine Spillar,[4] and sociologist Michael Kimmel.[2] It also contains excerpts from Jaye?s video diary."

-Wikipedia


After hearing the points mentioned above made by the MRM representatives and the counters by the feminist critics she changes her views on gender issues to a less one sided stance, not identifying herself as an MRA

Spoiler

but also no longer identifying as a feminist

I personally found many of the points made by the MRM activists pretty strong although I still wouldn't consider myself a MRA simply because I believe grouping yourself together with other in such a way removes judgement and the ability to form new opinions with new information that is opposed to previous opinions.

An example of these points is circumcision, I really despise it's practice regarding both woman and men and although I am happy that female circumcision is banned in many parts in the world it baffles me that male circumcision is widely accepted (especially in the States.). I find it sickening to cut baby's up for "aesthetic" reasons (and don't get me started about religious reasons). Seriously blows my mind.

 

[Lopende Paddo]

But much like "red pill" takes men's rights too far this hypothetical documentary could go too far the other way.

We already have some feminists calling MRA misogyny by another name. And some MRA conflating feminism and misandry. The end result of this are feminists looking like they want men to suffer and MRA groups looking like they think women are the source of the worlds woes.

I would recommend you watch the Doc, I agree with you that extremist within a movement polarize a debate until it becomes unmanageable and unproductive. I think that what gives this doc substance is that most people involved don't degrade to pointing finger machines. A 0 is for me (having seen this doc) a dishonest way to judge this film.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The problem with Elam-type MRAs isn't that men don't face their own problems in a lot of the areas the wiki article mentions, it's that Elam-types MRAs don't do jack-shit about any of them besides "spread awareness" about them by using these issues as a rhetorical bludgeon.

They're the worst kind of slacktivists. They interview fine (kinda), but you have to look at what they do. And in Elam's case, that involves pretending to be a charity as part of a scam.
Meanwhile, feminists, democrats, and the DoD [footnote]as one example of the above[/footnote]support either signing up everybody of the draft, or ideally doing away with the draft entirely.

 

[Lopende Paddo]

They're the worst kind of slacktivists. They interview fine (kinda), but you have to look at what they do. And in Elam's case, that involves pretending to be a charity as part of a scam.
Meanwhile, feminists, democrats, and the DoD [footnote]as one example of the above[/footnote]support either signing up everybody of the draft, or ideally doing away with the draft entirely.

I don't know what this Elam guy has done in the past apart from what is shown in the Doc. I do know that his use of language is easily quotable out of context to perhaps portray him as more of an extremist than he is. That he has strong views against feminism doesn't surprise me but the quotes in the Cosmopolitan article have absolutely no context to them, just copy past and that's it.

"I feel that ?man-hating? is an honorable and viable political act"

-Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."

Andrea Dworkin

Anyone can copy past incriminating stuff without context...

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

They're the worst kind of slacktivists. They interview fine (kinda), but you have to look at what they do. And in Elam's case, that involves pretending to be a charity as part of a scam.
Meanwhile, feminists, democrats, and the DoD [footnote]as one example of the above[/footnote]support either signing up everybody of the draft, or ideally doing away with the draft entirely.

I don't know what this Elam guy has done in the past apart from what is shown in the Doc. I do know that his use of language is easily quotable out of context to perhaps portray him as more of an extremist than he is. That he has strong views against feminism doesn't surprise me but the quotes in the Cosmopolitan article have absolutely no context to them, just copy past and that's it.

I didn't post that for his "out of context quotes", I posted that for his fraud. He pulls this shit constantly. Don't carry water for the guy if you aren't going to look into his actions.

 

[Lopende Paddo]

I didn't post that for his "out of context quotes", I posted that for his fraud. He pulls this shit constantly. Don't carry water for the guy if you aren't going to look into his actions.

I am not carrying water for anyone, it just struck me that every quote about him was an extreme anti woman quote without any context and I showed that that can be done to almost anyone. Like I said I don't know the context of those quotes, all I know is that the context is missing. I always get suspicious when people quote others only to show what bad people they are.

Saying he is a slacktivist doesn't forward any discussion, saying someone is a criminal so his points are mute doesn't further any discussion and above all discrediting a person doesn't discredit an argument. I have heard some of his arguments and I agree with some and disagree with others. I don't know what he has done and to be honest I don't care, I care about the point made not the person making it.

If an complete douche says to me "With practical certainty I can say that god doesn't exist because there is no empirical evidence for his/her/its existence" I'm not going to become religious because the guy saying it is a douche.


I originally asked what people thought about the documentary, can we go back to the topic "Is this documentary really as bad as to justify a score of 0"?

 

[bluegate]

I don't know what he has done and to be honest I don't care, I care about the point made not the person making it.

I originally asked what people thought about the documentary, can we go back to the topic "Is this documentary really as bad as to justify a score of 0"?

Good point there.

I haven't seen the documentary yet, heck, I wasn't aware that it was available already, I caught some wind of it releasing in select theaters across the world a few months or weeks ago, but wasn't aware that it had been released outside of theaters yet, mind if I ask where you saw it?

As for score of 0, even though I haven't seen it yet, that seems rather unjustified. But then again, there have been people calling for a ban of the movie from a country, theaters being made to cancel their showing of the movie, so I'm not surprised that there would be people to review it a 0, just because they don't agree with the subject matter being discussed within the documentary, or because they don't like certain people that make an appearance in the documentary. I mean, look at some posts in this topic... 🙄

 

[DaCosta]

I have no idea what this movie is, and no intention of finding out.

But I'll say: a documentary is meant to convey the truth, if I saw one that was just spouting bullshit, yeah, that's a big fat zero. Even if I don't see any boom mics in the shot, that won't wash off the smell of bullshit from it.

 

[Schadrach]

it baffles me that male circumcision is widely accepted (especially in the States.). I find it sickening to cut baby's up for "aesthetic" reasons (and don't get me started about religious reasons). Seriously blows my mind.

I always find it amusing when people want to compare it to FGM and argue that the big difference is that FGM is done to control women's sexuality while circumcision isn't, when that's literally why routine infant circumcision in the US became a thing to being with (Kellog [yes, as in the guy we know nowadays because his name is on cereal boxes] believed that circumcision would prevent by reducing sensitivity).

I would say I don't understand why there's so much pushback against banning non-medically necessary circumcision of children, but between religion and infant foreskin being valuable to the biotech and cosmetics industries...

I do know that his use of language is easily quotable out of context to perhaps portray him as more of an extremist than he is.

My personal favorite example of this is the whole "Bash a Violent ***** Month" thing. The article it comes from is titled "If You See Jezebel in the Road, Run the ***** Down" which isn't much better. But you might wonder, why Jezebel?

1. The article in question is a response to "Have you Ever Beat Up a Boyfriend? Because, Uh, We Have" from feminist blog Jezebel in which several of the female editors laugh about having been violent to their male exes. "we decided to conduct an informal survey of the Jezebels to see who's gotten violent with their men. After reviewing the answers, let's just say that it'd be wise to never ever fuck with us", to give you an idea of the tone.

2. The article in question is intended as satire, however poorly written. And believe me, Elam is no Swift.

3. Even if taken as absolutely and utterly serious (even noting that it outright admits it isn't before the end), once you get past some colorfully graphic choices of language the "modest proposal" being made can be summarized as "if a woman is violent towards you, respond in kind and without restraint."

And in Elam's case, that involves pretending to be a charity as part of a scam.

Not to defend him because this was one of the scummier things he's been involved with but "WhiteRibbon.org is owned by Erin Pizzey, hosted by A Voice for Men, and is not affiliated with any other White Ribbon organization." Normal size font, near the top of the page, under a bolded heading reading "NOTICE." If they were journalists, we'd be amazed by their transparency.

Meanwhile, feminists, democrats, and the DoD [footnote]as one example of the above[/footnote]support either signing up everybody of the draft, or ideally doing away with the draft entirely.

Vague talk, no actual effort put forth. What were you saying about looking at what people do rather than what they say?

Also, there's a *big* difference between "would include women who signed up if we ever have another draft" and "require women to sign up, with penalties if they don't."

I haven't seen the documentary yet, heck, I wasn't aware that it was available already, I caught some wind of it releasing in select theaters across the world a few months or weeks ago, but wasn't aware that it had been released outside of theaters yet, mind if I ask where you saw it?

Online publis release is this week, today or tomorrow, I think? Backers have had access for a month or two now.

As for score of 0, even though I haven't seen it yet, that seems rather unjustified.

Certainly. It's at least averagely made as far as documentaries go, I'm not fond of some of how it's structured (I think she includes a bit more filler than absolutely necessary), but not worth a zero. It's very much a reaction to the politics of it.

 

[Hawki]

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_red_pill_2016/

Nothing about it seems untoward to me.

 

[jademunky]

I do appreciate the summary.

"The Red Pill chronicles Jaye?s journey beginning as a skeptical feminist investigating what she believes to be a hate movement. She goes on to discover that the movement is different from what she expected and begins to question her own views on gender, power, and privilege.

Does the fact that she was crowdfunded by Breitbart & company make her Saul of Tarsus act more believable or less?

The film discusses numerous issues facing men and boys such as male suicide rates, workplace fatalities and high-risk jobs, false allegations of rape, military conscription

Totally agree that these are serious problems but I don't see how feminism is to blame for workplace safety standards not being enforced properly, most feminists I have talked to would LOVE for the draft to be gender-neutral or better yet, done away with altogether.

lack of services for male victims of domestic violence and rape, higher rates of violent victimization

A genuine problem facing men, gay men in particular, not having access to similar (poorly funded) shelters or support networks.

issues concerning divorce and child custody

Do men who actually seek custody get awarded it less often than women? My understanding is that the mother will often simply get custody by default simply because the man does not often contest it.

men's lack of reproductive rights.

I will have you know, as a man, that my right to have an abortion has never been placed in jeopardy.

After hearing the points mentioned above made by the MRM representatives and the counters by the feminist critics she changes her views on gender issues to a less one sided stance

Her views changed when she took money from white nationalists to make a propaganda film

An example of these points is circumcision, I really despise it's practice regarding both woman and men and although I am happy that female circumcision is banned in many parts in the world it baffles me that male circumcision is widely accepted (especially in the States.). I find it sickening to cut baby's up for "aesthetic" reasons (and don't get me started about religious reasons). Seriously blows my mind.

Agreed that both male and female circumcision should be against the law (excluding medical necessity obv.) but the two are not really comparable. It's like comparing someone with a hangnail to an amputee.

 

[shrekfan246]

I'm so glad that this website has turned to just straight up defending MRAs and Red Pillers.