The Sci Fi ghetto

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Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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a while ago this phenomanon was news to me...

aprently (espeically in liturature) the genre "sci fi" or "Sience fiction" is considered well..."space ships and ALIENS? preposterous!"

as in generally disliked by the upper echelons and relegated to the "sci fi ghetto"

so much that notable authors have generally said "I dont wirte sci fi!!!" and the "sci fi" chanel changes its name to "syfy" (and some guy outright said "sci fi is for losers") I guess that means....they are targeting stupid people now, I dont know

I mean WHY is this? some of the best ideas in fiction have come from so called sci fi...(and hell whats wrong with a talking/ flying dog from outspace avery now and again?)

its here that I really dislike the "we are art" cthing, how can people dismiss somthing just because it has strange Ideas? or outlandish things such as aleins or spaceships? for somthing to be "deep" or "art" it has to be set in the real world....

anyway this is because I was wrting a (really bad) sci fi story and now that sci fi has a "ghetto" It makes me feel like I'm writing somthing as shameful as fan-fic
 

Hoplon

Jabbering Fool
Mar 31, 2010
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You are.

Genre fiction is very much a marginal sector of books.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
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Jan 16, 2010
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Pigeonholing of things tends to lead to this sort of thing.

It doesn't help that the target audience of science fiction is officially acne spotted maladjusted geeks living in their mother's basement. Rather than challenge that, creators challenged the idea that what they were doing was science fiction.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Hoplon said:
You are.

Genre fiction is very much a marginal sector of books.
thanks...I feel dirty now :p

thaluikhain said:
Pigeonholing of things tends to lead to this sort of thing.

It doesn't help that the target audience of science fiction is officially acne spotted maladjusted geeks living in their mother's basement. Rather than challenge that, creators challenged the idea that what they were doing was science fiction.
but yeah, I dont see how this can be with all the great stuff I mean...phillip K Dick for crying out loud!
 

Thaluikhain

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Jan 16, 2010
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Vault101 said:
thaluikhain said:
Pigeonholing of things tends to lead to this sort of thing.

It doesn't help that the target audience of science fiction is officially acne spotted maladjusted geeks living in their mother's basement. Rather than challenge that, creators challenged the idea that what they were doing was science fiction.
but yeah, I dont see how this can be with all the great stuff I mean...phillip K Dick for crying out loud!
If he's good, he's not writing science fiction, though. Just something somewhat similar.

Mind you, this isn't new, it's been like that since the beginning of the genre.
 

MammothBlade

It's not that I LIKE you b-baka!
Oct 12, 2011
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I know what you mean. People use their imagination to experience new worlds, and lo and behold, pretentious philistines look down on them.

Hoplon said:
You are.

Genre fiction is very much a marginal sector of books.
Although this is also true. Maybe you shouldn't care too much about trying to write for a specific genre, and write what you will without the assumptions the genre brings.
 

kurupt87

Fuhuhzucking hellcocks I'm good
Mar 17, 2010
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This is part of an interview with a guy who writes both mainstream and sci fi, and his thoughts on this topic.

 

Hoplon

Jabbering Fool
Mar 31, 2010
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Vault101 said:
But yeah, I dont see how this can be with all the great stuff I mean...phillip K Dick for crying out loud!
Dicks rule for great science fiction is when the idea is the hero.

Most Sci fi fails that test horribly, which is why it's still a ghetto.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Hoplon said:
Vault101 said:
But yeah, I dont see how this can be with all the great stuff I mean...phillip K Dick for crying out loud!
Dicks rule for great science fiction is when the idea is the hero.

Most Sci fi fails that test horribly, which is why it's still a ghetto.
but even somthing that happens to say...take place in space and involve aliens, does using those elemnts make it bad? even if it is well written and had a good story/charachters?
 

Twilight_guy

Sight, Sound, and Mind
Nov 24, 2008
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Meh, Art has tastes and cannons and thinks it can control the world. Little doers it realize how little the world actually cares about what is branded art and what quality is associated with it. Write what you like, it'll make you a better author. Even if its bad, keep at it and try to improve, all writers start horrible.
 

Zen Toombs

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Nov 7, 2011
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Vault101 said:
-things-

anyway this is because I was wrting a (really bad) sci fi story and now that sci fi has a "ghetto" It makes me feel like I'm writing somthing as shameful as fan-fic
While I don't write fan-fic, there's no shame in most of it.[footnote]Most of it is quite horrific, but there is still no inherent shame in fanfiction.[/footnote] Some of the greatest works of literature are basically fanfiction - Dante's Inferno[footnote]And the sequels, but that's neither here nor there[/footnote] amongst others. (For some reason I think the legends of King Arthur apply, but I'm probably wrong).

And just like there isn't shame in fanfic, there isn't shame in science fiction. What matters is that the work is compelling and good, not the setting or genere or conventions of medium.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Zen Toombs said:
Vault101 said:
-things-

anyway this is because I was wrting a (really bad) sci fi story and now that sci fi has a "ghetto" It makes me feel like I'm writing somthing as shameful as fan-fic
While I don't write fan-fic, there's no shame in most of it.[footnote]Most of it is quite horrific, but there is still no inherent shame in fanfiction.[/footnote] Some of the greatest works of literature are basically fanfiction - Dante's Inferno[footnote]And the sequels, but that's neither here nor there[/footnote] amongst others. (For some reason I think the legends of King Arthur apply, but I'm probably wrong).

And just like there isn't shame in fanfic, there isn't shame in science fiction. What matters is that the work is compelling and good, not the setting or genere or conventions of medium.
interesting point

I mean Ive never understood the apeal of fanfic (other than getting off to your favorite charachters doing all kinds of things) I mean if Im going to actually write somthing then I want it to be my own..no matter how awful it is
 

Zen Toombs

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Nov 7, 2011
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Vault101 said:
Zen Toombs said:
Vault101 said:
[fanfic bad]
[Not always!]
interesting point

I mean Ive never understood the apeal of fanfic (other than getting off to your favorite charachters doing all kinds of things) I mean if Im going to actually write somthing then I want it to be my own..no matter how awful it is
I definitely understand that perspective, but there are interesting things that can be done with another medium. I've found some very interesting fanfic involving RPG's, showing the thought processes of the main character. Also, this sounds interesting, even though I haven't read it yet [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fanfic/DragonAgeTheCrownOfThorns?from=Main.DragonAgeTheCrownOfThorns].
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
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Vault101 said:
[sci-fi is somehow bad according to some people]
I might say they have only read badly written fan-fics [footnote]I'm not discussing the quality of fan-fics as a genre but you know there is a sizeable portion of them that are bad. And that gives the others a bad name...[/footnote] and cannot appreciate written works, no matter what the genre but that would mean lumping everybody in a single category, as you suggest people do to sci-fi. So, I wouldn't do that, because blindly categorizing everything is stupid.

First, simply there being people that are vocal in their dislike, does not mean anything. Maybe some people have genuine reasons to dislike science fiction, and why not, I don't like romantic books, for example, but that doesn't make them a lesser form of written work. Even if I gather a bunch of people with similar beliefs and we start shouting everywhere how bad romantic books are, that still wouldn't diminish their literary value.

Second, disliking the genre just because of certain aspects of it (that aren't guaranteed to be present) is, quite frankly, stupid. Yes, it's almost expected to have space ships or aliens in sci-fi, but you don't have to have them. Besides, even if they are there, those elements are not inherently bad - why would having a space ship be any different, than, say, having a regular ship? Instead of the crew exploring the seas in the ages past maybe the same thing happens in space. Protagonists from both stories can have similar hardships, or problems. Does that mean that the same people that bash sci-fi, would immediately dislike a story set in the past which features ships? I don't think so. Similar thing can be said for aliens - just by being there, they aren't bad for the story - it depends how are they used. And are aliens really that dissimilar to other creatures in fiction? Are we going to brand elves (for example) as "bad for fiction" because they could bring the element of "alien" in the story? Instead of wielding advanced technology, they wield magic and instead of hailing from the stars, they come from the from the mysterious forests. If talking about hostile aliens, then perhaps orcs or similar staple evil creature can take their place.

No, certain elements of a story do not automatically make it worse than others just by being there. I practically grew up with sci-fi, I started reading Robert Sheckley's stories when I was around 8. I read a lot then, especially short sci-fi stories, thanks to the books my father had collected [footnote]Thankfully, he was a sci-fi fan himself. Also a fan of novels with indians but I the latter never really appealed to me. My father was a bit disappointed.[/footnote] slightly after the time I hit was 11-12, I had probably read a three digit number of sci-fi stories and books. I've read things that range from amazing through mediocre to really boring and, frankly, bad. I don't think I'll never broadly generalize the sci-fi genre because they are too varied to pin down. Same can be said for any genre, though, can we expect magic and elves from "traditional" fiction? Sure, there are a lot that have those elements but not all of them - from the top of my head I can think of Stephen King's The Eyes of the Dragon that doesn't feature elves at all, just boring old humans.

I can sit here and give examples of all kinds of sci-fi stories but let me just throw a few here that don't have neither spaceships, nor aliens: A Thief in Time by Robert Sheckley - the person who is going to invent a time machine is hunted by people from the future for his crimes there; Something for Nothing by Shekley again, where a person happens to get a machine that seemingly fulfils any wish; Weapon but I can't remember the author[footnote]Although the story itself is my favourite one of all times, I can never seem to remember the author for long. Which is a shame, really.[/footnote] where scientists discover the weapon of the next century. Oh, but let's not forget some more widely known examples, such as 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea and Neuromancer.

But there are excellent sci-fi plots that do feature aliens or spaceships, Strata by Terry Pratchett comes to mind, Dune, Firefly/Serenity, Warhammer 40k, or perhaps Mass Effect[footnote]It seems people quite enjoy it, well, more than I did, anyway. It didn't appeal to me that much, although I would admit it's not really bad - just personal taste[/footnote].

Sci-fi is a broad term, there was a short story about a person that managed astral projection (while trying to learn telepathy) but his body was hijacked by a ghost in the mean time. And that was science fiction. Compare it to Star Wars and they are nothing alike. How about 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea and Star Wars - are they alike? Generalizing the sci-fi genre is really hard, it's like trying to generalize PC games or maybe first person games.