The Shattered Elden Ring Thread: Tarnished Edition - (Shadow of the Erdtree p. 85)

CriticalGaming

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Beyond the fact this is literally untrue (so far, every castle I've encountered has had a unique enemy selection). You're also pointing out the fact that Elden Ring has caves, catacombs and castles. If it were an Ubisoft game, it would only have castles. There would be a castle every hundred meters or so to ensure you had meaningless content. Clearing castles would be a core gameplay loop and every time you did it you'd get a big message and a percentage modifier would go up to show what percentage of castles you'd cleared. Of course, there'd be no loot or actual content in the castles because that would require effort, so instead some of the guard NPCs would be replaced by friendly guard NPCs to give a sense of accomplishment to the meaningless, repetitive task of clearing castles..
So basically because Elden Ring has less video game elements in the video game it's different. Sure okay. But we are talking about open world feel, not how Elden Ring plays as a game. I'm talking about the open world design and usefulness, not the gameplay mechanics behind it. My argument is only from the grounds that ER's open world is not that good and that it does not do anything special unless you want to argue that doing LESS is what makes it special, but special does not mean it's good. Period. The combat, the gameplay of ER is still just fine. The

But the fact that the caves are underground does not make them different than the copy pasted castles above ground if ubisoft had done this one.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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The difference in previous games is that you don't explore copy/pastes areas for these items and most of them are not out of the way as you move through the very good level design by default.



I think I've been pretty clear about why I hated BotW. It was strictly the garbage durability system, and the constant nonsense that got in the players way. Freedom to move around is all well and good, but if you limit my freedom by raining while i'm climbing or zap me with lightning out of nowhere because i happen to have the wrong weapons equiped at the wrong time, then you can fuck right off with your bullshit. Maybe this is patience, but I just call it dicking the player around for no reason other than to slow them down.

I also think that "optional" content is also kind of a lie. Because say you are just a god at the games, if you ran the main path, you could beat either BotW or ER in...30 minutes? So how optionial can the content be if that content is the bulk of your game? That doesn't sounds very optional, and the fact the most people will require this "optional" content in order to reasonably progress, means that "optional" is bullshit. It's not optional, it's the content of the game. If all of this massive world is optional then what is actually the game?

Say what you want about your standard open world games we see everywhere, but at least there side stuff is truly just side stuff. There is a full story, and campaign, etc and skipping the side content doesn't hamper your experience in any major way.
By the time most people have seen all the unique areas in ER, they could’ve probably played through any earlier Souls game three times, if not for the difficulty of unfamiliar bosses padding NG runtime. Smaller levels can be great with being well-designed, but having less to see and do inevitably leads to retreading the same ground dozens/hundreds of times over the course of completion, and mostly to a select few spots for farming souls to level or enhance gear. Even the best level design will become an afterthought sooner or later.

“Optional” in these games simply equates to having…well, options. The player has the option to choose whatever they want of it. True, a first run might need a good chunk of it to proceed, but the game doesn’t dictate specifically what that might be. Chalk it up to a difference in structure, where a game like The Witcher 3 may let the player do side quests and contracts whenever they choose, but to advance the story, the bulk of XP is gained through completing main quests.

Then the game gate keeps progression by saying you’re not a high enough level to access X area or start Y side quest, use Z gear, etc. even though you’re supposed to be a seasoned Master Witcher. I like the game but that to me takes me out of it a bit, and having so much of the side content exposed on the map early on before even engaging in any feels overwhelming. I started the game about four years ago and have 82 hours in. Nearly half of that has probably been listening to dialog. Still don’t think I’m half way done yet with the main story. For the hell of it I might dip back into it this weekend for some fresh contrast.

Speaking of, I have almost half of that time into ER already in what, a month and I know far less of what to do or what’s happening but it’s been more engaging; most likely because it just lets you play.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Then the game gate keeps progression by saying you’re not a high enough level to access X area or start Y side quest, use Z gear, etc. even though you’re supposed to be a seasoned Master Witcher
I don't remember The Witcher ever doing that, but i also always did all the side content in that game because it yielded unique stories and a lot of unique fights that you would never see in the main story.

By the time most people have seen all the unique areas in ER, they could’ve probably played through any earlier Souls game three times, if not for the difficulty of unfamiliar bosses padding NG runtime.
I dunno about that. I got through the NG in 55 hours which isn't much different than what DS3 took. I guess it also depends on how much people dilly dally. If someone hunts crafting items, and explores every baracade or hunts every monster type in the open world, then yeah that number would be higher. I used an interactive map to find locations, but I didn't hunt for anything specfic. I found all the legendary items except one that I missed because it's in such a dumb spot that it's hard NOT to miss.

But every single boss down, the longest questline completed for the "good" ending, all dont in a single run.

I will say a lot of the difficulty in the game is frontloaded. Once you get a working build together the difficulty falls off a cliff imo. Especially if you aren't handicapping yourself by not using at LEAST the ash summons. But if you use the tools the game gives you, it gets really easy on the back end.

I think what happened, was that Miyazaki wanted to make an open world Souls game featuring all the best things from the previous games (weapon arts, jump, button, etc) However it all comes together in a kind of sloppy way, which makes the game balancing all over the fucking place. Because the focus and "scale" is so large for the game, I feel like it has hurt a lot of the individual elements of the game.

Honestly i want you to beat the game. I want you to finish NG and tell me how you feel after you've basically seen/done everything. I'd be curious to see if your stance changes at all.
 
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EvilRoy

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I dunno about that. I got through the NG in 55 hours which isn't much different than what DS3 took. I guess it also depends on how much people dilly dally. If someone hunts crafting items, and explores every baracade or hunts every monster type in the open world, then yeah that number would be higher. I used an interactive map to find locations, but I didn't hunt for anything specfic. I found all the legendary items except one that I missed because it's in such a dumb spot that it's hard NOT to miss.
I'm at about 100 hours going into the final few area's of the game and I really don't feel like I've been wasting time. Certainly I've gone looking for field bosses and such because they looked like fun challenges, but aside from the fact that a fairly significant portion of Limgrave and Caelid is not particularly necessary to visit and doesn't really yield much in the way of lore or loot I've rarely wandered about aimlessly for any particular amount of time. Did you hit all the optional locations?
 

CriticalGaming

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Did you hit all the optional locations?
Yes I did. Though like i said, i am not interested in running around aimlessly so i used a map that marked all the areas of interest for me and i just hit all of them one by one until i completed each zone. So that sped me up because I b-lined it to everything. Though there are probably a few bosses I still missed because some bosses only appear at night or only at day whatever so I wouldn't say i 100%ed the game. However i did finish everything in terms of the trophies in a single playthrough. There are two endingsI still need to get the platinum and that's it.
 

EvilRoy

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Yes I did. Though like i said, i am not interested in running around aimlessly so i used a map that marked all the areas of interest for me and i just hit all of them one by one until i completed each zone. So that sped me up because I b-lined it to everything. Though there are probably a few bosses I still missed because some bosses only appear at night or only at day whatever so I wouldn't say i 100%ed the game. However i did finish everything in terms of the trophies in a single playthrough. There are two endingsI still need to get the platinum and that's it.
That's nuts, I really don't know if I could play the game much faster than I have - its actually presently a stumbling block because even if I streamline and skip a fair bit of shit I don't see myself being willing to give this game a second playthrough just on the basis of time. Its the Skyrim/BOTW thing for me. Love the games, love spending time playing it, but the thought of starting again feels like committing to a contract job. Like, its too many hours to just say 'yeah I want to round 2 this thing'.
 

CriticalGaming

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That's nuts, I really don't know if I could play the game much faster than I have - its actually presently a stumbling block because even if I streamline and skip a fair bit of shit I don't see myself being willing to give this game a second playthrough just on the basis of time. Its the Skyrim/BOTW thing for me. Love the games, love spending time playing it, but the thought of starting again feels like committing to a contract job. Like, its too many hours to just say 'yeah I want to round 2 this thing'.
To be fair in NG+ you keep everything you picked up for the most part and when you open the map every catacomb, ruin, church, cave, erdtree remains marked on the map. You lose all your grace sites, but you at least know where everything is so you dont have to waste any time exploring. I B-lined right to end game on my NG+ run and it took only about two and half hours to beat the game the second time. My weapons were maxed so there wasn't any reason to level up, the only thing that slowed me down was having to do a couple things to set up the ending I wanted. Otherwise, kill Stormveil Castle, Kill the academy, then go straight to the capital dealing with that, then it's endgame.

That's the thing with ER too, once you have your "build together" a task which will vary depending on your plan, the rest of the game is just busy work because it will offer you nothing further.

Play style will be hugely important in both how difficult people ultimately find the game, and how long the playthrough takes. Exploring for some is all well and good, but I don't have much free time so when I sit to play I am not interested in wandering around aimlessly. Just tell me where the content is so i can go do the content.
 

Chupathingy

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You gotta collect it all though. That sentence of lore per item is critical. Gotta get all the set pieces too, just in case the helm talks about the insignia that isn't present on the rest of the set.
Hey man, Fashion Souls is important too!
 

Terminal Blue

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That's the thing with ER too, once you have your "build together" a task which will vary depending on your plan, the rest of the game is just busy work because it will offer you nothing further.
Honestly, all I'm hearing is "I have limited free time so I treated my free time like work. Why wasn't it fun?"

You've answered your own question.

I've never played NG+ in a souls game. Never. Why would you do that?
 
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CriticalGaming

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Honestly, all I'm hearing is "I have limited free time so I treated my free time like work. Why wasn't it fun?"
Where did I say the game wasn't fun? again my arguments are all directed at why i dont think the open world is good. nothing more.

I've never played NG+ in a souls game. Never. Why would you do that?
Well in ER it's the best feature because it allow you to play the game without having to hunt for everything all over again. Why wouldn't you play NG+, it allows you to continue to build your character and go after other endings of which every souls game has had at least two or three.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Where did I say the game wasn't fun? again my arguments are all directed at why i dont think the open world is good. nothing more.



Well in ER it's the best feature because it allow you to play the game without having to hunt for everything all over again. Why wouldn't you play NG+, it allows you to continue to build your character and go after other endings of which every souls game has had at least two or three.
It sounded like what @Terminal Blue was getting at is the fact that having limited free time can severely change how one approaches games like this, to the point playing with a goal of completionism feels more like a task vs a hobby. I’ve done it with previous Souls games among others, and I think not caring anymore about trophy hunting has been pretty liberating in how I approach games. It’s far more leisurely. I really don’t stress anymore over what I miss on a playthrough because outside of seeing the platinum by my username, I’ve mostly forgotten about those details anyways by the time I’ve moved onto the next game.

Games never used to have trophies or achievements, and I think adding that meta element is a double edged sword. It’s nice to have these somewhat arbitrary goals in games, but when they become the primary concern it kinda turns games into something to consume vs simply enjoy. I kinda miss the days before the internet enabled instant gratification so much. Back when seeing a Zelda hint in Nintendo Power or calling their help line was considered a luxury.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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I don't remember The Witcher ever doing that, but i also always did all the side content in that game because it yielded unique stories and a lot of unique fights that you would never see in the main story.
I posted this in another thread somewhere and it pretty much mirrors my biggest issue with the game -
 
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CriticalGaming

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It sounded like what @Terminal Blue was getting at is the fact that having limited free time can severely change how one approaches games like this, to the point playing with a goal of completionism feels more like a task vs a hobby. I’ve done it with previous Souls games among others, and I think not caring anymore about trophy hunting has been pretty liberating in how I approach games. It’s far more leisurely. I really don’t stress anymore over what I miss on a playthrough because outside of seeing the platinum by my username, I’ve mostly forgotten about those details anyways by the time I’ve moved onto the next game.

Games never used to have trophies or achievements, and I think adding that meta element is a double edged sword. It’s nice to have these somewhat arbitrary goals in games, but when they become the primary concern it kinda turns games into something to consume vs simply enjoy. I kinda miss the days before the internet enabled instant gratification so much. Back when seeing a Zelda hint in Nintendo Power or calling their help line was considered a luxury.
I don't typically go out of my way for platinums, but I do like to get them when they are easy or straightforward. I wont grind 400 hours for a platinum that shit can kiss my ass. I didn't get all the trophies in Elden Ring on purpose until I checked the PSNprofiles list and saw that I really only had like six trophies left.

And to be clear, I resulted to using the wiki after the open world bored me in the first place. When I saw that the vast majority of open world enemies were worthless to fight (becasue they rewarded pitiful runes for the effort and danger they were to fight) that's when I felt it became pointless to explore aimlessly. And I had a lot more fun just hitting the spots that mattered and having some direction.

I never said the game wasn't fun, the game was bad, that I didn't enjoy the game, i said the open world is bad. It didn't need to be there. It doesn't offer any challenge it just takes the Dark Souls "stuff" and spreads it really thin across a huge barren world. By the end of the game, I was wishing for more Dark Souls not more Elden Ring and it just shows how good the Souls formula is and how bad the open world formula is.

Now I feel like there are a couple if things that could have been changed to make the World feel a shitload better.

1. Add icons to the compass like in Skyrim. When you get close enough to a place icons appear on the compass in that game that will point you in the general direction of shit to do. Doing so doesn't impact the freedom in Skyrim, and it wouldn't change anything here except make the player curious especially when combines with the good looking vista's in the game.

2. Add value to open world enemies. Maybe not every enemy but enemies within barricade camps, ruins, and purposeful exploration points like swamps in Caelid. This allows the player to make more choices between fighting something to gather runes, or just skipping them, as right now the vast majority of stuff in the open world is not worth fighting. And some of the enemies that are worth fighting are strange. Like south of the Warmaster's Shack in Limgrave there is a field with five giants. These giants give 1000runes each and if you fight them on horseback they are trivial to fight, sometimes their AI breaks and they just stand there while you kill them FREE RUNES! Look at the Dunky video again where he showcases the armless Gargoyle worth 3000 runes who is zero challenge, then the Crucible Knight who is extrememly difficult and is worth 3300 runes (or something like that). The risk isn't worth the reward for much of the basic enemies in the game.

Frankly Elden Ring's balancing and jank is all over the place. Did you know that if you walk slowly towards a fog wall, and press the button to enter as soon as the prompt appears, tilt the camera to the floor for a few seconds before the boss realizes you are there, BOOM Ai is broken the boss will not move or react to anything you do and you can kill the boss without it fighting back? Or that you can make Torrent Fly and skip the whole world? The vast difference in power level between weapon arts is insane, some spells are fucking stupid as there is no reason any spell ever should 1-shot a boss. Status effects are broken too, did you know you can sleep both of the last bosses and hit them until they die without them doing anything?

Bugs and exploits are nothing out of place from Souls games and people have been breakign the games for years. But usually it's not stuff your average player might just do on accident and not realize it.

Elden Ring is a fun game, but the scope and scale of trying to make it open world have done considerable damage to the overall quality of gameplay we usually see. Open world fine, but I think this game got way too big for their own good. But since people are in the honeymoon phase and are phrasing the shit out of it, the next game will be bigger maybe. I really hope Miyazaki tries at least doing a different setting instead of yet another Dark Fantasy world.
 

SilentPony

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So im about 36 hours in, and I haven't made a lot of progress simply because Im trying to get through some bosses and it takes time to grind up levels and git gud. I will say I'm really frustrated with constantly finding new dungeons, exploring them, dying, trying again, and not being able to tell if its a high level dungeon or just a regular hard one, until I get to the boss and it curb stomps me in one or two hits and even my +6 weapons barely do any damage. I have something like 6 or 7 bosses available that utterly wreck me because I wasn't supposed to be able to get through their dungeons in the first place.
I've said it before, but From is best doing a linear game progression. People say it takes more work to do an open world, and I disagree. Ive seen videos of people praising how each dungeon and cave is unique with a unique layout, and I call bullshit. Every cave I've found is identical in layout, down to where the items will be with only the enemies different. And sometimes the bosses are the same. I've fought the same flying cat statue boss like 6 times now. To me the open world feels lazier. Why bother with mapping out player progression and a cohesive story when you can just shrug and say "Find another place."
It goes against my gamer instincts to just leave a dungeon half finished because the miniboss is 10 levels higher than me and From put the entrance next to a graveyard with just some wolves and zombies in it and I assumed it would be more of the same. Like yeah, it subverts my expectations, but who ever said that was a good thing?

Also the story is still incomprehensible. I fought and eventually got gud and killed this ancestral deer spirit ice god boss thing, and I will say its a gorgeous boss fight. Just hands down one of the best looking boss fights ever and my clear standout for best Elden Ring boss so far. That said, I have no idea why it was on a bridge in a secret underground world, no idea why it teleported me to a giant cavern, no idea why its hostile, no idea why there are ghost minotaurs around, no idea why killing the ice deer god lets me summon minotaurs now, and the deer god wasn't even guarding anything. Its a dead end, no pun intended. You kill the boss, get a random power, and then leave. No explanations, no dialogue, no hint of a story or plot, no reason why we fought or anything. And I feel let down. Great boss fight, great ascetics and feel and music and the dancing blue deer galloping in the sky was beautiful and then nothing. It's just over and the game is like "On your bike, nothing more to see, you must not dwell." and its like...wat?
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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Frankly Elden Ring's balancing and jank is all over the place. Did you know that if you walk slowly towards a fog wall, and press the button to enter as soon as the prompt appears, tilt the camera to the floor for a few seconds before the boss realizes you are there, BOOM Ai is broken the boss will not move or react to anything you do and you can kill the boss without it fighting back? Or that you can make Torrent Fly and skip the whole world? The vast difference in power level between weapon arts is insane, some spells are fucking stupid as there is no reason any spell ever should 1-shot a boss. Status effects are broken too, did you know you can sleep both of the last bosses and hit them until they die without them doing anything?

Bugs and exploits are nothing out of place from Souls games and people have been breakign the games for years. But usually it's not stuff your average player might just do on accident and not realize it.

Elden Ring is a fun game, but the scope and scale of trying to make it open world have done considerable damage to the overall quality of gameplay we usually see. Open world fine, but I think this game got way too big for their own good. But since people are in the honeymoon phase and are phrasing the shit out of it, the next game will be bigger maybe. I really hope Miyazaki tries at least doing a different setting instead of yet another Dark Fantasy world.
No disagreements on FROM jankiness, but I personally haven't run into any crazy glitches yet after about 40 hours in so far. Though I’m sure judging by the youtube clips it has no doubt scaled up right along with the world size, which goes to show they need more testers. Time will tell how much things keep getting patched.

As it is, some of the requirements for these glitches are still pretty specific and as obtuse as anything FROM deliberately puts in to say, questlines.


Searching Youtube for DS3 easy boss glitches brings back something similar, along with several other strategies for unlimited souls.


Not sure how many people could realistically stumble into that though either. Makes me wonder how these people find this stuff in the first place.
 

Chupathingy

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So im about 36 hours in, and I haven't made a lot of progress simply because Im trying to get through some bosses and it takes time to grind up levels and git gud. I will say I'm really frustrated with constantly finding new dungeons, exploring them, dying, trying again, and not being able to tell if its a high level dungeon or just a regular hard one, until I get to the boss and it curb stomps me in one or two hits and even my +6 weapons barely do any damage. I have something like 6 or 7 bosses available that utterly wreck me because I wasn't supposed to be able to get through their dungeons in the first place.
In my experience almost every dungeon boss was leveled roughly around the region it was in. I think I've only ever had to return to beat a boss once, and that was Sellia Crystal Tunnel.
 
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Brokencontroller

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Is anyone bothered by how much there seems to be copied right out of Dark Souls 3. Animations, weapons, sound effects, all straight up ripped out of previous games.
 

BrawlMan

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Not really, developers reuse assets all the time. Why would it start bothering me now?
Not you, but because there are bitches that are/were loudly bitching about Horizon: Forbidden West reusing assets from Zero Dawn. How these fans are that stupid and delusional are beyond me.
 
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