The Shattered Elden Ring Thread: Tarnished Edition - (Shadow of the Erdtree p. 85)

[hanselthecaretaker]

That's a good explaination video, if the explaination is still basically the same effect. It's not technically reading inputs, but it is responding directly to the result of that input before the player has any reasonable reaction to tell the difference since it's responding to start up frames. Either way i think it crosses the difficulty line of "tough but fair" since it responds to start up frames before any possible reaction can be done by the player. The AI should never do anything that can't technically be responded to by the player, ever. It's one thing to catch the player in a panic roll, it's another to heal punish with an attack the player can't avoid because of the healing animation. Especially when no action was being done by the enemy when the player chose to heal during a presumed "safe' moment to do so.

This is compounded by the sheer agression and long extended combos many enemies have, making "safe" mements few and far between. So actively further punishing those safe moments only serves to feel cheap and overly punishing for no reason.

ER has some blatant examples of it but it’s nothing new in FROM games. Bloodborne, DS3 and Sekiro had it, mostly with later bosses like Maria, Orphan, Sister Friede, Lady Butterfly, Owl, Emma, both Isshin’s. It’s WTFkery but essentially forced me to learn openings to heal, like during the tail of their attacks when at a safe distance. Basically it boils down to not healing during their idle states in quite a few cases, and picking battles between punishing and healing.

 

[sXeth]

That's a good explaination video, if the explaination is still basically the same effect. It's not technically reading inputs, but it is responding directly to the result of that input before the player has any reasonable reaction to tell the difference since it's responding to start up frames. Either way i think it crosses the difficulty line of "tough but fair" since it responds to start up frames before any possible reaction can be done by the player. The AI should never do anything that can't technically be responded to by the player, ever. It's one thing to catch the player in a panic roll, it's another to heal punish with an attack the player can't avoid because of the healing animation. Especially when no action was being done by the enemy when the player chose to heal during a presumed "safe' moment to do so.

This is compounded by the sheer agression and long extended combos many enemies have, making "safe" mements few and far between. So actively further punishing those safe moments only serves to feel cheap and overly punishing for no reason.

I mean, that video fails the basic test that proved they were input reading, which was how they'll do the same thign even if there is no line of sight, they (stupidly) throw the black flame at a wall when you do the heal.

SO call it input reading, call it "reacting to frame animations", call it whatever, you can prove its nonsensical.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I mean, that video fails the basic test that proved they were input reading, which was how they'll do the same thign even if there is no line of sight, they (stupidly) throw the black flame at a wall when you do the heal.

SO call it input reading, call it "reacting to frame animations", call it whatever, you can prove its nonsensical.

It’s not stupid if it knows the attack will clip through those walls

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

This is compounded by the sheer agression and long extended combos many enemies have, making "safe" mements few and far between. So actively further punishing those safe moments only serves to feel cheap and overly punishing for no reason.

This right here is why Elden Ring is probably going to be the first From game I never replay. All the stuff about input reading and everything is one thing, and whatever, but if you can get through it be waiting out the enemy's combos and then reacting I'm cool with that, I enjoy it. That's why Genichiro is perfect- he has this combo attack that is a bunch of crazy slashes then ends with a stronger one. So you can deflect them all, or try to run away if you're not too close, or what I like to do is deflect all the smaller ones then dodge the final one to avoid hurting my posture. This to be is the perect "tough but fair" because I can learn the pattern and respond in a couple ways. And sometimes I do just let him slash away at nothing and then hit him with a chip shot, or whatever- and what I'm describing is an actual cool fight.

In Elden Ring that same boss would follow that multi-slash combo with another three hits and then a delayed smash attack or AoE and like it never f'n stops. So i have to wait twice as long for each combo? Ok... I get one hit in yay, then here comes the next 15 hit slash and like I'm just so tired.
And I'm supposed to overcome this nonsense with intense patience (sorry no I'm gonna die someday IRL), get really clever with the right weapons, ashes or summons (thus severely limiting my role-playing options, like one of the whole points of these games), or just go f*** myself.
And yeah, I did the second one in order to beat the game, with youtube help to make bleed builds and find upgrade materials for my mimic tear. But that's just playing the meta, not the game, because the game got tired and annoying after Lurnia Lakes area.

And it's just such a small difference than Sekiro in terms of timing and number of attacks and enemy size and distance. It's like they hit perfection and then just one tiny step further with these movements and that tiny bit killed the fun.

 

[Dalisclock]

This right here is why Elden Ring is probably going to be the first From game I never replay. All the stuff about input reading and everything is one thing, and whatever, but if you can get through it be waiting out the enemy's combos and then reacting I'm cool with that, I enjoy it. That's why Genichiro is perfect- he has this combo attack that is a bunch of crazy slashes then ends with a stronger one. So you can deflect them all, or try to run away if you're not too close, or what I like to do is deflect all the smaller ones then dodge the final one to avoid hurting my posture. This to be is the perect "tough but fair" because I can learn the pattern and respond in a couple ways. And sometimes I do just let him slash away at nothing and then hit him with a chip shot, or whatever- and what I'm describing is an actual cool fight.

In Elden Ring that same boss would follow that multi-slash combo with another three hits and then a delayed smash attack or AoE and like it never f'n stops. So i have to wait twice as long for each combo? Ok... I get one hit in yay, then here comes the next 15 hit slash and like I'm just so tired.
And I'm supposed to overcome this nonsense with intense patience (sorry no I'm gonna die someday IRL), get really clever with the right weapons, ashes or summons (thus severely limiting my role-playing options, like one of the whole points of these games), or just go f*** myself.
And yeah, I did the second one in order to beat the game, with youtube help to make bleed builds and find upgrade materials for my mimic tear. But that's just playing the meta, not the game, because the game got tired and annoying after Lurnia Lakes area.

And it's just such a small difference than Sekiro in terms of timing and number of attacks and enemy size and distance. It's like they hit perfection and then just one tiny step further with these movements and that tiny bit killed the fun.

Yeah, enemies with very long combos with very short safe periods is a form of difficulty it's difficult to call fair. The problem is, you as a human, have a limited amount of time and attention to devote to any given battle, especially since there's no fucking pause button. The computer, OTOH, can literally do this all day as long as the fight goes. Even if you're good at playing keep away and getting in very precise and safe hits, eventually you're gonna get tired and make mistakes and when most bosses can take you down in a few hits at most, it's in your best interest to take down the boss in a quick timeframe because a battle of attrition does not benefit you at all. It's one of the reasons SSI was so difficult for me that it's a long fight regardless and it only gets harder as it goes. Eventually it will wear you down, especially if you're doing attempt after consecutive attempt.

I don't feel bad for using bleed or summons or rot because, fuck it, I got shit to do and I ain't got time to spend here watching you do 17 minutes of combos in a row waiting for a brief window if I'm facing you solo

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Malenia, revenants, Elden Beast and maybe the Godskin with the twirly attacks were the most bs for me in the game, but still as far as boss fights this was probably the most manageable game FROM has made thanks to the effectiveness of summons, ashes, buffs, etc. I’ve never replayed any of these games from scratch because of the leveling system which I only have patience for once. I did start a PC playthrough of Sekiro though so idk. We’ll see how far I get.

Same with GoW. I might end up actually skipping Ragnarok if they pull the “Whoops, Kratos loses all his shit because reasons and now you gotta find it again!”. It was tolerable enough in the classic games because progression was so in tune with the story mode, but now with the leveling, upgrade, skill tree, etc. bloat every game needs to have…even if you’re getting all new stuff it’s getting to be a tiring formula.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

but still as far as boss fights this was probably the most manageable game FROM has made thanks to the effectiveness of summons, ashes, buffs, etc.

See I do agree with this. It's my core problem with the game- "manageable" does not mean "fun." In order to "manage" the bosses, you have to figure out the summons/ashes/buffs by trial and error and reading and exploring- which by its very nature includes randomness, and of course still dealing with tough enemies becauase FROM- or, what most of us honestly do, look stuff up on the internet. Playing the meta.

In Sekiro and Bloodborne, I was fighting. Increasingly throughout Dark Souls including 4/ER, it's research and management. Blech.

 

[SilentPony]

So I've been doing some more playing. I think Im done with the capitol. I fought the omen king in the sewers, and I think the same omen king in the capitol plaza, and like the ghost of the first elden lord or something like that. I think those are the bosses of Leyndell. And then I found some underground cities and laid siege to them for awhile, and then went on to some giant roots area and laid siege to that for awhile and that one lady who likes giving hugs eventually went on to sleep with a corpse and had a nightmare about a giant acid/fire dragon and I had to lay siege to him. And Im currently laying siege to the mountain top of giants and the lake of rot.

And the Lake of Rot can go rot. What a miserable zone. The mountain top of giants is cool, but damn even the basic ghostly shadow knight enemies are kicking my ass.

 

[Dalisclock]

And the Lake of Rot can go rot. What a miserable zone. The mountain top of giants is cool, but damn even the basic ghostly shadow knight enemies are kicking my ass.

I'm not even sure what the point of the lake is. You can hoof it across without too much trouble if you just want to get past it to the grace on the far side. I guess there's a boss in the lake and some items? I didn't want to go explore it since I've seen enough fucking poison swamps in FROM games at this point.

 

[SilentPony]

I'm not even sure what the point of the lake is. You can hoof it across without too much trouble if you just want to get past it to the grace on the far side. I guess there's a boss in the lake and some items? I didn't want to go explore it since I've seen enough fucking poison swamps in FROM games at this point.

I assume its there for lore reasons? Like the river of slime in Ghostbusters 2. They need a literal wellspring of rot to explain why there is so much rot in the world.
Though why there is death smoke, poison, toxin and rot, all functionally being the same thing just requiring 4 times as many healing items...
And as with all From games, the lore and story are very much not a concern for the storytellers. Like Im at the Lake of Rot and Giants whatever. I still don't know what the elden ring is. No one has explained it to me, and the lore videos I've seen list it as either a super magic rune that prevents death, the physical manifestation of a cosmic space god, a space parasite who is possessing the giant tree to control people, or just completely made up out of whole cloth by the church and the whole game, with monsters, giants and dragons is a shared fever dream the world is having over the collected guilt of some great big war that was had.
And that's assuming the English translations are right, and that NPCs are telling the truth, willfully or otherwise.

 

[Dalisclock]

I still don't know what the elden ring is. No one has explained it to me, and the lore videos I've seen list it as either a super magic rune that prevents death, the physical manifestation of a cosmic space god, a space parasite who is possessing the giant tree to control people, or just completely made up out of whole cloth by the church and the whole game, with monsters, giants and dragons is a shared fever dream the world is having over the collected guilt of some great big war that was had.
And that's assuming the English translations are right, and that NPCs are telling the truth, willfully or otherwise.

Best I can tell. I'm putting spoilers just because some people might see it as spoilery.

Spoiler: Elden Ring was the friends we made along the way

The Elden Ring is a Rune, or series of runes, that essentially defines the principles on how the universe operates(Not unlike the idea of the Sepiroth....or I could be totally wrong on that). The Rune of Death was part of it but was removed by Marika at some point in the past and given to Malikith so the gods couldn't be killed....which ended up fucking up up for everyone because no nobody can really die. It's unclear what all the runes represent but they do seem to be associated with their associated demigod. Marika is essentially the avatar of the Elden Ring and is bonded to it by virtue of being Elden Lord and/or God, and the statues you see all over the place show that she's basically been crucified on the lower arc(The Rune Arc) of the Elden Ring. The Elden Ring apparently predates the Elden Beast and the Erdtree because the Elden Ring can bee seen in Farum Azula in a different form

I mean, there's a ton of lore in there and it's all very tangled but that's the most simplified version I can come up with. I mean, it's not only FROM storytelling but the Golden Order is basically a religion and Religions get super wierd and cryptic sometimes.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Best I can tell. I'm putting spoilers just because some people might see it as spoilery.



I mean, there's a ton of lore in there and it's all very tangled but that's the most simplified version I can come up with. I mean, it's not only FROM storytelling but the Golden Order is basically a religion and Religions get super wierd and cryptic sometimes.

I look at most FromSoft Lore as thus, "Things were cool until an asshole or handful of assholes made everything suck for everyone. Go make things not suck, or at least end it all, either way the suckage stops" the end.

 

[Dalisclock]

I look at most FromSoft Lore as thus, "Things were cool until an asshole or handful of assholes made everything suck for everyone. Go make things not suck, or at least end it all, either way the suckage stops" the end.

I mean, yeah, that does more or less summerize most FROMSOFT games.

Also "Help these people with their quests. Haha, you helped them and it just made things worse ya smuck!" AKA every quest in Bloodborne. I sometimes think FROM games are written by Kreia from KOTOR2 who famously believes that by helping people you're only hurting them which is why you should only help yourself....wait a second....

 

[BrawlMan]

I look at most FromSoft Lore as thus, "Things were cool until an asshole or handful of assholes made everything suck for everyone. Go make things not suck, or at least end it all, either way the suckage stops" the end.

​

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

See I do agree with this. It's my core problem with the game- "manageable" does not mean "fun." In order to "manage" the bosses, you have to figure out the summons/ashes/buffs by trial and error and reading and exploring- which by its very nature includes randomness, and of course still dealing with tough enemies becauase FROM- or, what most of us honestly do, look stuff up on the internet. Playing the meta.

In Sekiro and Bloodborne, I was fighting. Increasingly throughout Dark Souls including 4/ER, it's research and management. Blech.

The biggest difference for me was the tradeoff of being able to beat nearly any of ER’s bosses into paste, whereas even after wiki’ing prior games’ bosses it still took a lot of head banging because they’re almost all so fucking spongy. I can only tolerate so much of the attrition style of melee combat anymore, so a game giving an ability to minimize that is appreciated.

Sekiro’s fights were a bit more forgivable in that regard though due to the posture system. There were also enough tools to gain an advantage within this framework in most cases, other than perhaps the most Souls-like boss (Demon of Hatred).

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

What is Demon of Hatred, that is not a Sekiro boss. I certainly don't recognize it as such. Oh, you mean the red thing that I cheese into jumping off a cliff just to get a platinum trophy but don't respect enough to actually fight 'cause it's one pile of bullshit in an otherwise brilliant wonderful game? Oh, that thing.

 

[Dreiko]

What is Demon of Hatred, that is not a Sekiro boss. I certainly don't recognize it as such. Oh, you mean the red thing that I cheese into jumping off a cliff just to get a platinum trophy but don't respect enough to actually fight 'cause it's one pile of bullshit in an otherwise brilliant wonderful game? Oh, that thing.

He wasn't that bad, you just had to use the hat to protect yourself from some of the huge fire AoE things lol. I think he took me like 2 hours at most.

See I do agree with this. It's my core problem with the game- "manageable" does not mean "fun." In order to "manage" the bosses, you have to figure out the summons/ashes/buffs by trial and error and reading and exploring- which by its very nature includes randomness, and of course still dealing with tough enemies becauase FROM- or, what most of us honestly do, look stuff up on the internet. Playing the meta.

In Sekiro and Bloodborne, I was fighting. Increasingly throughout Dark Souls including 4/ER, it's research and management. Blech.

You can just brute force through stuff with enough practice by figuring out their patterns like usual and just dodging everything. I never use summons and I try different ashes for fun here and there but even a more optimal loadout is about winning more as opposed to something that makes the difference between winning and losing. If you can't really figure out the fight so you can win it with any sort of ash equipped then I don't really consider it as having won and it's more like cheesing it out.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

He wasn't that bad, you just had to use the hat to protect yourself from some of the huge fire AoE things lol. I think he took me like 2 hours at most.


You can just brute force through stuff with enough practice by figuring out their patterns like usual and just dodging everything. I never use summons and I try different ashes for fun here and there but even a more optimal loadout is about winning more as opposed to something that makes the difference between winning and losing. If you can't really figure out the fight so you can win it with any sort of ash equipped then I don't really consider it as having won and it's more like cheesing it out.

Did you mean without? To me it still would seem like they expected people to use ashes and summons as a normal part of the game. Otherwise yeah I could see roughly half of these bosses being significantly more difficult than in past FROM games if people played it that way.

 

[Dreiko]

Did you mean without? To me it still would seem like they expected people to use ashes and summons as a normal part of the game. Otherwise yeah I could see roughly half of these bosses being significantly more difficult than in past FROM games if people played it that way.

I mean I don't think you need any one particular ash, some can work better than others but they're not super important either way.

And I dunno, I feel like you can just do so much more in this game even without those things. The fact that just taking strong attacks makes enemies stagger is huge for one, and also jumps and guard cancels and so on help too.

To me the summons and stuff feel placed there for those instances where you're ambushed by like 8 random guys in a tight spot and you need something to kite half the group, not for the big 1v1 fights.


The only area where things feel harder than, say, DS3 is in that they do more damage it feels like. But still not quite as much damage as things did in Sekiro.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I mean I don't think you need any one particular ash, some can work better than others but they're not super important either way.

And I dunno, I feel like you can just do so much more in this game even without those things. The fact that just taking strong attacks makes enemies stagger is huge for one, and also jumps and guard cancels and so on help too.

To me the summons and stuff feel placed there for those instances where you're ambushed by like 8 random guys in a tight spot and you need something to kite half the group, not for the big 1v1 fights.


The only area where things feel harder than, say, DS3 is in that they do more damage it feels like. But still not quite as much damage as things did in Sekiro.

It seems like most of the areas where spirit ashes were available was for the boss fights, whether the main path or in the field. The funny thing is I initially thought that little symbol in the corner meant you were simply in a dungeon area with secrets available or something, so yeah I didn't even realize their true purpose until sometime in Liurnia I think.