The Source engine

[cyber_andyy]

Spoiler: Not in the know?

The source engine is made by valve and been used for TF2, Left 4 Dead, Counter strike source, and other games.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_engine

Ok, so the source engine is a mixed blessing to the game world. Its the most moddable engine out there, countless game have been made for it, including Zombie panic!Source, Insurgency and Age of Chivalry to name a few.

It is often updated and fixed by valve for individual games and the engine in general, which means there are some slightly different versions floating around. But the high update and fixes make it a well maintained engine.

So far so good. But this is the problem. With every update, games performance takes a nose dive. With one fix, more bugs are uncovered meaning more fixes needed and more crashes occurring in the community. Its a cascading effect, Almost like a tree. You start with one thing which then branches of and creates more problems. Soon you have hundreds. A lot of these causing your TF2 to go from a healthy 35FPS during fire fights to 5 FPS during fire fights. Even the multicore rendering added to the engine is having mixed results so far.

So really, should Valve stop beating the dead and decomposing horse? Should they pump out a new engine for their next release? A more stable engine, still highly moddable, but with out the cascading bug and performance issues?

EDIT: To clear this up, I generaly have no problems with the source engine myself(3 cheers for tweaking) . I just picked this up and noticed it slightly on my own system.

 

[karmapolizei]

I think so too.
Also, engine updates don't affect all Source games. They've already branched the engine at least once (but I think it was twice), so that, for instance, Half-Life 2 remains mostly unaffected by changes made to later games. Neither have I had any performance problems with Source games - that is, actually, the great thing about it: More or less every machine used for gaming can run it, and it still looks pretty neat.

Seeing the big picture, I like the approach very much. They don't "beat the dead horse", they do what I think every sane developer should do: Leave the engine mostly alone, maybe tweak it a bit, and make a good game. That's what they're doing, and it's highly appreciated.

 

[Ushario]

I'm not certain you understand exactly how costly the development of such a game engine is. It can take years and millions of dollars to create an engine like that.

As for these 'cascading' bugs, I have seen no real proof that they exist, my games all run as well or better than they did on release. In my opinion things have gotten better.

Oh and you're making it sound like they put bugs in their engine on purpose...

 

[cyber_andyy]

I think so too.
Also, engine updates don't affect all Source games. They've already branched the engine at least once (but I think it was twice), so that, for instance, Half-Life 2 remains mostly unaffected by changes made to later games.

"It is often updated and fixed by valve for individual games and the engine in general, which means there are some slightly different versions floating around. But the high update and fixes make it a well maintained engine."

Neither have I had any performance problems with Source games - that is, actually, the great thing about it: More or less every machine used for gaming can run it, and it still looks pretty neat.

no way they should make a new one. none of this stuff happens to me with the source engine. maybe its just you. they do an excellent job of maintaining it.

This is my point about the bugs ect. A top end machine can be out performed by a low end machine. You can have two machines, exact same hardware more or less, and you will get different performance.

Im not too badly affected by the source engine, although for TF2 I've had to do some changes using my autoexec.cfg file. But the point still stands. The is some wild perfomance issues with the engine. (most notably in TF2 I might add, due to the (IMO) over use of paricles and no option to switch certain performance killers off, or have lower quality particles.)

Look at TF2 Natascha. That thing is ALWAYS breaking.

Have a look at the offical TF2 and L4D forums. Although better now, there are still plenty of threads about performance issues.

 

[Nivag the Owl]

I love the way your list didn't include Half Life 2, haha. Anyways, word on the street is Half-Life 3 is going to be the next installment of Half-Life and we were promised a new engine for each core Half-Life game. After HL3 comes out, we will be given a dozen more games for the new engine

EDIT: Oops, I was wrong. They're making a Half-Life 2: Episode 3, which is currently the finale in the written story but is not necessarily the final installment. Anyways, after THAT, they might make a Half-Life 3, which should get a new engine.

 

[cyber_andyy]

I love the way your list didn't include Half Life 2, haha. Anyways, word on the street is Half-Life 3 is going to be the next installment of Half-Life and we were promised a new engine for each core Half-Life game. After HL3 comes out, we will be given a dozen more games for the new engine

I don't really play Half life 2 that much(At all), so I couldn't really comment.

 

[Crystal Cuckoo]

Hey, if you can run CS: Source, can you run Left 4 Dead?
My friends claims that you can, but I was under the impression Left 4 Dead needed a moe powerful processor...

 

[karmapolizei]

Probably one of the MP guys...

Back on topic, I guess you're overestimating your own experience - for all I know, most people don't have problems. And you certainly can't count the forums as a reliable source of data, because there's hardly anyone on a tech-support forum saying "Yup, everything's alright"

 

[MercenaryCanary]

You see, the problem is you only provided us with one source of information. Until you can provide me with about... 5 sources of information that are all reliable, I will hang my hand in shame at you. There is no reason to listen to you until that moment.

 

[aussiesniper]

Hey, if you can run CS: Source, can you run Left 4 Dead?
My friends claims that you can, but I was under the impression Left 4 Dead needed a moe powerful processor...

L4D does require a slightly better computer, but if you can play Counter strike: Source on medium, you can probably play L4D on medium-low.

 

[cyber_andyy]

I love the way your list didn't include Half Life 2, haha. Anyways, word on the street is Half-Life 3 is going to be the next installment of Half-Life and we were promised a new engine for each core Half-Life game. After HL3 comes out, we will be given a dozen more games for the new engine

I don't really play Half life 2 that much(At all), so I couldn't really comment.

*cough. splutter* you don't play half life two? do you play the other games then? because the engine was made for half life two first.

I couldn't really get into it, I tried the first one, didnt like it, tried the demo of number 2 and it didnt really appeal.

 

[Theo Samaritan]

I repeat a previous statement that I appear to be the only one on this forum that hasn't had any problems with any of Valve's stuff. I don't even have the performance bugs and crashes you claim there are loads of.

Like all things, when a product is released to hundreds of thousands or even millions of people the number of people who get the problems grows exponentially with the total users.

Its just an issue that the people who don't have any problems keep quiet, whereas the people with problems won't shut up about it. (Not a dig at you, OP, but generally.)

AS for the engine itself, what it is now is nowhere near what it was during the original release of HL2, and despite some of the Crysis lovers complaining that graphically it looks out dated etc it can still hold its own in both looks and performance when compared to modern games.

So no its not beating a dead horse, its buying a better one of the same breed.

 

[cyber_andyy]

You see, the problem is you only provided us with one source of information. Until you can provide me with about... 5 sources of information that are all reliable, I will hang my hand in shame at you. There is no reason to listen to you until that moment.

Im using TF2 as that is the game which I know best. I'm also stering clear of Left 4 Dead as thats not a HL2 mod.

Ok performance problems
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1267643
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/page-258803_15_0.html
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=202604
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/page-255770_15_0.html
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=827460&highlight=performance+high
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=824776&highlight=performance+high

After a recent patch for TF2:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=825969&highlight=performance+high

Its also a well know fact about Source that its CPU intesive, I run TF2 with a AMD 64 X2 4600 with a few tweaks, and I shouldn't be getting better performance than sombody with a better processor.

( It still dosn't run that well. ugh. Unfortuantly, I would need to get a new mother board and possibly new RAM whilst I'm at it in order to upgrade my CPU. so I can't afford it yet.)

I could be completly misguided, but this is what i have picked up from a good year or two of lurking ect. I have also notice my performance gradually go down.

But feel free to show me that im wrong about the update-performance problem, and the wild differences in system performance. I look forward to it.

 

[theklng]

Ok, so the source engine is a mixed blessing to the game world. Its the most moddable engine out there, countless game have been made for it, including Zombie panic!Source, Insurgency and Age of Chivalry to name a few.

it isn't the most moddable engine out there. there are countless of other engines that allow you greater freedom than source and have better documentation than source. source's strong point is its community, but as soon as another engine will have more respect in that area, people will start flocking to it instead.

the biggest problem i have with source is the lack of API/documentation and a scripting language. whenever you want to mod something, you need to hard code it. while this in itself isn't a problem per se, doing it without proper documentation is a huge burden. it's hard enough to look at and understand other people's code. it's even harder doing so without instructions as to what it does.

on the other hand, valve has a very intuitive level editor (in comparison with e.g. unreal), which is most likely also what made it popular. the community documents much about it and you can make some pretty impressive stuff if you put your mind to it. it seems valve have deliberately focused on the level editor so that people can make new maps for existing games. but without proper documentation, it has become hard to make new games. it's a bit of irony that i find hard to appreciate.

 

[entwinex]

I think it's still the best engine out there, at least for PC. It looks good without taxing your system much at all, I haven't had problems with the updates so I'm content.

L4D for e.g has some of the best character models around, the environments manage to be very atmospheric and the number of enemies on the screen without slowdown is impressive.

It is beginning to show its age a bit, but I think it can still pump out satisfactory graphics for the remainder of this gen as long as the art directing is strong like in TF2, L4D or EP2.