The Story

Nimcha

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Hah, I don't agree with anything any of the three people said in this. Funny. :)

I love cutscenes when done well, it makes the character come alive for me. When all the characters do is go through the standard animations of movement, they feel too much like puppets to me. That's why I love the cutscenes in for example ME2. While talking the characters sit down, walk around, grab things off tables etc. It makes it all feel a lot more organic.

Also wanted to mention how strongly I disagree with the point of choices in games, I think it's good that sometimes a single choice can lead to a situation you didn't want (ie a character dying). If none of your actions would have consequences, what would be the point?
 

CaptainStupid

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Incomprehensible to me is the lack of criticism aimed at Homefront. That story is ludicrous, demonizing, and insulting to intelligence. I have searched in vain for someone from The Escapist, GameSpot, IGN, PC Gamer, X-Play, CVG, etc., to ask an obvious rhetorical question: How is North Korea, a bankrupt gulag full of wretched, starving political prisoners, supposed to invade and occupy America? I made this point in another forum, and some angry man (boy?) replied, "Because. It's. FICTION." Maybe his Internet shouting explains why video game stories are consistently terrible... Dishonest cliches about psychopathic super-soldiers are good enough to meet low expectations. Stories driven by sympathetic characters possessed of humanity (and all its faults) are probably unprofitable.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.269298-296-On-the-Front-Lines#10339199

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.269298-296-On-the-Front-Lines#10343494
 

Stevepinto3

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I like what Yahtzee mentioned about moving around and doing things in conversation. It's true, people don't just stand there staring at each other, they move around and fiddle with stuff. I remember the first Mercenaries game did this actually. While the United Na...sorry, Allied Nations commander was telling you about where to go find the artillery to blow up or whatever, you could walk around the room fiddling with televisions or maps or the vending machine. If I recall, you could mess with the dude at the Mafia HQ and the guy would keep swatting your hand. I'd just sit there the entire conversation trying to poke him, seeing if he would eventually get up and stab me or something.

The only thing that bugged me about that game was that they had the EXACT same HQ's in both locations. It's like they built them perfectly to scale in a new place. Oh, and falling in water killed you. That was retarded. Otherwise an awesome game.
 

luciferjones

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This is a greta topic and one ive been wrestling with some time. I come from a background in filmmaking and script development but I've been a gamer since i bought a Microbee hand-build kit in 1983 and played Defender till my fingers cramped.

To my mind one of the primary problematic elements is the word 'Game' itself - one banal (and diminutive) word to describe an artform and screen-experience that spans from Tetris to Bioshock. I think Narrative and Gaming are a fantastic combo (when done well and I agree with the panel that halfLife 2 has not been bettered for seamless integration) but this is not to say that ALL of the stuff we call games need or deserve narratives. This is a topic I have written about in a post entitled "From Sandpit to Cinema: Charting the spectrum of Story vs Narrative"

http://www.mikejones.tv/journal/2010/6/12/from-sandpit-to-cinema-charting-the-spectrum-of-story-vs-nar.html

Also "Video game Taxonomies"

http://www.mikejones.tv/video-game-taxonomy/

This is trying to think through what the difference is between a Story and a Narrative. the idea that Tetris has a Story, written by the player as they play - a journey from start to end full of obstacles and challenges. But that this is not the same as the Narrative of a game like Bioshock - which is a delicate and sophisticated orchestration of events - a narrative that is Authored and passively Narrated.

Once we've made that separation we can start talking about Narrative-Gaming without clouding the debate with games that do not have or need to have such a narrative - narrow the field so to speak. Within this I think the key element missing from game Narratives is Subtext. After writing an article on Screenplay subtext in film and Tv I was prompted to turn the same critical thinking to gaming and wrote a piece called "Unearthing the subtext in game narrative"

http://www.mikejones.tv/journal/2011/2/28/unearthing-the-subtext-in-game-narrative.html

The macro perspective I take in regard Game Narratives is that too often the discussion around gaming and its relationship with traditional media (namely film) has too much 'baby out with the bathwater' about it. There tends to be a rather ignorant and arrogant stand that gaming is a Revolution of Story, that the old 'rules' don't apply, that Game storytelling is all different and unique. And I just cant buy that, simply because there is no precedent for it. Narrative Gaming is an Evolution of storytelling NOT a Revolution. its just the latest in a long history of evolution. Cinema didn't' revolutionise storytelling form the theatre - it just added new vocabulary and form. Likewise Radio dramas didn't revolutionise Story, and why humans like Dramatic Story, they just did it with a different set of tools.

Thus what i find disappointing in many game narratives is they ignore or are ignorant of the long standing principles of what makes a Story Compelling for a viewer/player. A fear too often we get shirty with Game Narrative as somehow incompatible with the medium instead of seeing such game Narratives for what they are - bad Storytelling.

Thanks for a great discussion and i look forward to reading more.

Cheers
Mike Jones
www.mikejones.tv
 

KraGeRzR

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rembrandtqeinstein said:
One word (and some periods)

S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

Specifically SoC (the other 2 didn't quite recreate the magic of SoC even if they were more polished)

The gameplay WAS the story, the environment was the star. There were a couple of small cutscenes but none of them took away exploration and discovery and most importantly none of them pulled you out of the immersion.

The Controller attack that removed player control and zoomed in exploded, and left the player's view all woozy is pee your pants scary if you aren't expecting it.

I'm a huge Planescape Torment fan but I agree the gameplay isn't anything to write home about. The game engine was just a vehicle to explore the detailed world and the rewards/equipment were just placeholders reminding you of things you already did and places you visited.
I totally agree. S.T.A.L.K.E.R: SoC is hands down my complete favorite game for that exact reason.

You couldn't have said it better.

I might add though, that another standout in Stalker SOC was the incredible atmosphere. Fallout 3 attempted it, but they only succeeded in making a shadow of the atmosphere of Stalker.

Seriously they didn't even need atmosphere. It could have just been a generic shooter - it had all the elements - zombies, trogs, and just normal shooty dudes.


But no, they managed to make all that feel like a gripping, agonizing fight for bare survival in a terror-filled wasteland stalked by unimaginable evils.

Again, atmosphere?



And in the end, that's how the whole game was. Even the ending sequence with you wandering through the sarcophagus... That creepy russian? HIVE MIND droning away at you from INSIDE YOUR HEAD!!!
S.T.A.L.K.E.R: SoC wins.
 

Miral

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Jun 6, 2008
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Graham_LRR said:
Miral said:
Alpha Protocol is a leading candidate for the exact opposite: your choices matter more in that game than in most others.
The vast majority of the dialogue options in that game affect whether you talk like a douche, a likeable douche, or a clever douche, but you usually end up saying basically the same thing.
Well, true, but the same is true of most dialogue-based games. There are, however, quite a few significant points where your attitude can make you friends or enemies, or even get someone killed. And the order in which you do the missions can sometimes make quite a big difference.

Graham_LRR said:
All I said was that I liked how Alpha Protocol did it, not that all games should. Alpha Protocol had issues, for sure, but getting my choice of how the character responds from a "tone of voice" aspect is a neat idea. I like it more than "I WILL DO THE GOOD THING" or "I WILL DO THE BAD THING", and it helps the designer move the story forward in one direction, while still giving the player input.
You should love Dragon Age II, then. Its dialogue system is all about that sort of thing. :)
 

beema

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Wonder how Yahtzee feels about the "dialogue tree" treatment in Heavy Rain. It was almost exactly like what he suggested.
 

Axelhander

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You know, this column would be great with Yahtzee, Shamus, Graham, and James. <-- Nobody excluded accidentally.
 

Vandborg

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That was a great read.

I completly agree with what Graham said, and for the most part it was what I hated about Dragon Age 2. Dragon Age: Origins left more to the imagination with the silent character. In DA2 it feels like everything is set with a talking character and I especially hated the part where wrong, and at that point unfigurably, decision would lead to something bad 10 hours later in the game. It feels like there isn't a lot of RPG's anymore that let me, as the player, make and decide the story, it's more the game that wants to tell a story, which is fine, but if that story doesn't fit with what I had in mind myself, it will be a turn down.

So if you are gonna make a semi-open story in RPG, let me feel like it is open. A lot of times the dialog ends in the same thing, the only difference is the way it comes out of my character's mouth.
 

ischmalud

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ill go with something completely different, since it seems wierd that people in this discussion focus on shooter - "shooterish" games.
Wouldnt everyone agree that by definition the games with the best/ most immersive story line/ story telling tools should be rpgs? but having said that the 3 lads in the discussion probably pointed EVERYTHING out that EVER (at least the ones i played) mmorpg did wrong - yea we back to bitching about pages of "plot"...zzzzZZzzz. and even most singleplayer rpgs seems to make the same mistake, interessting at least from reading this thread and i havent played many of the games mentioned here it seems that the FPS comm by now gets better stories than us wizzard and elve nerds - kinda upside down.
i actually started a new mmorpg RIFT and TRIED to read through quests and give a shit about what i was doing.....that worked for about 30mins after that i was back to checkin my map for the cute circles telling me where to go to kill shit for w/e reason - what drove that home to me was that some kid warned me of a werewolf quest chain and some know bug. after being told that i realised i had finished that chain 4 hours prior without triggering the bug (by chance) but it took me another 2 hours of running arround to realise that ive done it thats how "immersed" i had been in the story - but hey i mad 4 lvls and earned 8 platinum in cash so who cares right :p???
Also on a side note i gotta go with the flow of pps here saying that choices in discusions should have an affect on the game but rather than just locking some content if x choice is made it should lock one aspect and unlock another and visa verca.
Who knows maybe the idea of having a fully voiced mmorpg will actually make for an immersive mmorpg - looking at you SWtoR.
appart from that yea i think there should be story lines in some more complex games, but games like Serious Sam etc will never ever need much story or any at all since the reason u play those games is a different one.
 

Drake_Dercon

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Yahtzee: Dead Space is one recent game I can think of that tends to keep its cutscenes within gameplay, as well as telling quite a bit of story in the background and ancillary details, but it still falls down for me because it lacks another vital component of storytelling, that is, effective pacing. The importance of that depends to some degree on what sort of game you're making, and in horror it's crucial.
As for dialogue trees, it depends how they're done. The Bioware standard of having the characters stand woodenly across from each other running down a shopping list of options one by one like a job interview, I always find that slightly tortuous. I liked how Alpha Protocol did it, with a little timer and an analog stick selector to keep the discussion ticking along, I just wish it could be worked more organically into gameplay.

I'd like an NPC to start talking to me as soon as I come close to them, rather than staring mutely at me until I hit the context-sensitive prompt flashing over their heads. I'd then like to still be in control of my character throughout the conversation, walking around, fiddling with ornaments, hunting through drawers, shooting arrows at bunny rabbits, etc, with dialogue options being selected with some quick on-screen prompt using a button or control that is otherwise unoccupied. I don't know if you guys saw the Plinkett review of Revenge of the Sith, but he makes a good point that all the dialogue scenes are just two people standing (or sitting) and gabbing at each other, and it's incredibly dull. People do other things while they talk; it makes for more dynamic discourse and an opportunity for characterization.
I agree with this statement.

That is to say that I think storytelling should be done NO MATTER WHAT. It should bear some form, be it an involved network to uncover, an ultimate goal or a distinct culture. Even sandbox games need that.

I also think that a decision that becomes inconsequential serves to diminish the game, though you should know what you're saying. To me, the ideal game offers dialogue options via the d-pad (because it's so rarely used), without interrupting gameplay. You always know what reactions your choices generally provoke (for instance, up is the moral high ground option, right is the suspicious option, low is the zero-tolerance option, left shifts to an alternate menu where up is the "it'll all be all right" option, left is the sarcastic option, down is the total prick option and right shifts back), while these will dictate future actions of the NPCs, you can't accidentally kill someone or block off a quest (accidentally applies to that, too). What it should do is dictate how the NPCs react to you, if they're likely to show a blatant dislike of you in public and how they propose character-specific quests, as well as the romance options because what game isn't better without those.

What I agree with is the fact that cutscenes are abused. Don't get me wrong, some are a good idea, but all too often they force the linearity of a game and are used much to frequently to do something an interactive medium isn't supposed to do, which is tell a story over which you have no control other than in which order the baddies die.

This may also overlap into an interactivity debate because even without conversation a player could influence the game. In a good game (a really good one) the way you complete one section could dictate parts of the next. Fire emblem almost managed this: if you let a character die, they no longer appear in cutscenes. But I think it needs to be farther-eaching than that.

If there is one thing that should be drawn from this it is that every part of a game should be its story. The environments and random NPCs/enemies define its culture, the important NPCs should be at least complete characters, all of the player's actions should have consequences (though only small ones) and the flow should never stop except for a very good reason.

That's a perfect game.

This would also call up the importance of atmosphere and atmosphere versus graphics, but I think I've run off at the mouth long enough for today.
 

OuroborosChoked

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To everyone complaining about Okami and Issun's interruptions:

Don't play Okamiden.

It's MUCH worse.

I just don't get it, either. It's a portable game, but it's LOADED with cutscenes, unnecessary characters, and exposition dumps. There are so many unnecessary characters in Okamiden, the made the plot needlessly convoluted just to make them fit.

Yes, the cutscenes are skippable, but most of the time you start in one situation, and by the end of the cutscene, everything is completely different: new partner, new location, new quest... and you're left wondering - "WTF did I miss??" *reset* *sit through dreary, dull, long cutscene*

ugh... rant over.
 

Grabbin Keelz

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lol I kept clicking to go on the second page thinking the discussion wasn't over.

This kinda gave me some insight. As much as I love games like Fallout 3, I should still consider criticizing it on some bits rather than assuming its perfect.
 

GodKlown

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Alright fellas, let's get into this topic. Storytelling is an important feature in any event wherein you want to draw someone into an unfamiliar setting. Some games are good at it (Saint's Row, GTA, Mass Effect) and others make you wonder what the hell you are doing or why you are doing it (sorry, no specific example jumps to mind but just add any generic game titles here that aren't triple A games). That being said, some games with a good story are just torturous to deal with.

Take for example Dragon Age. Everyone talked up what a great game this was, and the fact that Bioware was attached got a lot of fans frothing at the mouths. Being a fan of Bioware myself, I gave Dragon Age a shot a few months after it had come out and was more easily available. Granted, the combat was nice and the character animations were great, but I could have given two craps' less about the story... but you aren't allowed to really ignore it. Hours upon hours spent reading dialogue and going through trees just to try and resolve a conflict that you really had no stake in, you just need to complete this senseless quest in order to further the game. And you have to stand there for a virtual eternity while some dead-eyed doll lays out their life story for you. Not even half way through the game, I was just rushing through the dialog to get back to cutting off heads. The dialog got to be so much that I just didn't care anymore. Has that happened to anyone else? Have you ever had a game tell you so much story that it actually caused you to stop caring about it?

Back in Atari days, there were games either that had a brief story (sometimes in the manual) or had none. What was the story with Pitfall? Q-Bert? Pac-Man? Nobody knows, nobody cares. Once we started seeing stories and story arches play out in games, like the original Final Fantasy, it was exciting. You saw you were making an impact on this virtual world, and for you could clearly see you were doing something. Now? Sure, you get the same experience, just with fancier cut-scenes and voice acting. The concept is the same, only the technology has changed. Some would say it has improved the landscape, but really we're still doing things the same old way. Now if we could do something about the action-cutscene-action-cutscene-action formula...
 

Skratt

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I like seeing the 3 of you put your heads together on topics like this, you should do it more often. :)

...I don't have time for unlimited playthroughs of a game, so I want the one play I DO get to be good. But I find myself afraid to pick dialogue options as I please, and instead scrutinize a walkthrough for fear that if I choose poorly then NPC 1 will die later, or Quest-Line X will lock down... all because I said "Yes" to someone who seemed nice at the time.
I had this problem, right up until the point I played Mass Effect. My OCD mechanism had an aneurysm and I'm pretty sure about 10 hours into the first game I heard the audible *ping!* of a mental spring flying across the room, but I was able to play through one time on each game and treated it like I would a really long but interactive movie. This sometimes left me skipping entire dialogue trees because some situations made some of the dialogue options improbable. Had a blast all because I just let go an imagined that this is how the story happened. I just gave John Sheppard a temperament and just tried to stick to that throughout the game making choices accordingly.

I wonder if, at least sometimes, it's not the story that limits our enjoyment but the player that limits themselves. I know it is that way with me. I often imagine that the (game play | cut scene | game play | cut scene) formula is to try and eliminate the "player" from ruining a "great game".
 

Cenequus

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To an extend I disagree with them. While I can't stand japanese games and their long boring cinematics I'm not for the Half-Life/Bioshock kind of story telling. In my opinion only works with FPS in the way they can actually implement a story behind the mindless excuse for shooting stuff. Extending this to everything is 3D Avatar,crappy film but huge succes because of the 3D so everybody and his friends now makes 3D movies regardless if there is not "scenario" to benefit from beeing in 3D. Anyway point is I want games to have the classic way of interaction because it feels like a reward seeing how the chars act after the options you made along the way(good example DA2 with the long time span).
 

rickicker

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I still say the prime example of a good story-telling in games are the ones who does it very little and let us connect the dots for ourselves. Remember how fun it was to play through "Shadow of the Colossus"? Half of that fun is because we came up with the story ourselves, with the game only dropping us hints of what the hell happened in that limited time and space. I agree with one of the earlier posters there, saying that "play, don't show" should have been the motto in good game-making/story-telling, harkening back to the days of yore when the only semblance of story we got is "plumber rescues princess from deranged giant mutant turtle".

I don't wanna be an old codger about this, but really fellas, I feel that the original GTA games was much more fun to play due to the fact that it was not bloated with too much story. As one smart guy whom I can't name at the moment and is too lazy to look up: "Perfection and beauty in art is when a piece allows the viewers' imagination to roam free", and I guess we can agree that our beloved medium IS an art form, right?
 

rickicker

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Cenequus said:
To an extend I disagree with them. While I can't stand japanese games and their long boring cinematics I'm not for the Half-Life/Bioshock kind of story telling. In my opinion only works with FPS in the way they can actually implement a story behind the mindless excuse for shooting stuff. Extending this to everything is 3D Avatar,crappy film but huge succes because of the 3D so everybody and his friends now makes 3D movies regardless if there is not "scenario" to benefit from beeing in 3D. Anyway point is I want games to have the classic way of interaction because it feels like a reward seeing how the chars act after the options you made along the way(good example DA2 with the long time span).
Hooo boy, won't you be disappointed when watching Yahtzee tore DA2 a new one in this week's review. "Gobbing your handsome friend". LOL! XD
 

Cenequus

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Why would I be disappointed? He's doing shock humour reviews anyway.

As for the review itself I found it pretty mellow and he could have done way better if he was on the hate wagon.

As for the gay jokes he always does those why this time would have been different.

As for the lack of "epicness" of the story I actually enjoyed a change in the usual "you're the Chosen save the world" game story that all RPGs have. Yahztee sees that as a minus I see it as a plus.Different tastes who cares right?
 

Yoshi Dragon

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in regards to that last comment in general how did noone notice how bad gaming stories were? maybe it's because noone was reading the slips of paper that came in the boxes with the games you know the instruction manual and other crap. i mean to see how bad it has always been just take a look at the story for yars revenge for the atari 2600 in this game your apparently playing a mutant space fly thing whose race eons ago had hitched a ride on some human astronaughts ship as they cruised the galaxy, not the humans are gone the race evolved and can eat any material and crate energy bolts from, which is good because your planet yars has come under attack by a race that it doesnt go into. your job is to kill thier big death ship by eating it's protective layer and shooting at it while it shoots energy bullets at yolu which you can hide from inside a radiation belt radiation apparently doesnt kill space mutant flies.

and thats basically the kind of backstory you get from alot of those old games least the ones who didnt have comics or tv shows.

but even if you do the story integration right i doubt it can be as immersive as a good book. to illustrate i'll give the example of a good book i read not to long ago called farseer, about a race of dino like creatures who evolved intelligence. the plot revolves around this races version of leonardo davinci who defies local religious authorities and starts telling and proving the planet is round and such theres a scene in it after he gets rounded up by the authorities where he gets his eyes stabbed out with a dagger and what makes this scene so powerful at least for me isnt merely the description but how the entire thing was built up. i dont think you can do that in a game because such things kind of need to lead you around a bit to get you where you need to be when you need to be there to get the effect wanted. all games have an element of players free will in them players usually explore the levels in whatever order plus theres death and repeat which all breaks that immersion little by little. thats not to say you cant get some really good story elements into a game but death randomness in which players do things and exposition all in my mind work against getting a real immersive story