The US should probably consider banning hate speech like the rest of the free world.

[j0frenzy]

Eh. We tried something like that once. Technically, fighting words are still not constitutionally protected, but it was a vague term that was created to arrest protesters in the 1930s and 40s. Then again, the way the Supreme Court limited the fighting words doctrine was weirder and more confusing.
In short, no. I'm rather fine with my current levels of what is and is not protected speech. I'm rather happy to protect any speech unless it presents a state of imminent lawlessness (the current standard created in Brandenburg v. Ohio). It still allows the government to act in the most extreme circumstances without opening it to abuse.
Free speech rights. They're kind of weird.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

I like the oxymoron in your title.

But it's true. The US is the only first world country (and I don't think there are even any second world countries where it's legal) where hate speech is legal.

Umm...
Look up oxymoron...

I didn't say that it wasn't an oxymoron.

Then your quoting me is pointless. Because I clearly dont care how many other countries have laws against hate speech, its still wrong.

Not really, we still get to say our say but the dumbasses who ONLY try to be mean get arrested so it's actually pretty good.

 

[Dys]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/09/10364954-anti-gay-westboro-baptist-church-to-protest-at-slain-powell-boys-funeral

If you're too lazy to read the article, there was an incident recently where a man killed himself and his two sons after losing custody of them. (This same man was under investigation for the disappearance of his wife two years ago). The Westboro Baptist Church is going to be holding an anti-gay protest at their funeral, because they claim that the boy's deaths were an act of vengeance from God because of Washington's recent support of homosexual rights.

And it's completely legal. Go America.

...Last time I checked neither stupidity or insanity were illegal anywhere in the western world....

 

[MammothBlade]

There's probably no free speech without "hate speech". I don't mean having the right to wage a campaign of harrassment and intimidation, or incite violence against another - and those should be prosecuted aggressively - but certainly the right to say controversial and provocative things in public. Hate speech legislation is all too often used to silence legitimate debates about immigration or Islam. The law has been interpreted as such that any topics referring to such could potentially get you fined and thrown in jail. Violent hate speech is easily covered by "breach of the peace" laws anyway.

 

[rcs619]

If you stand on a soapbox and say "We should kill all Arabs, cause they're the cause of AIDS", someone should stop you. It's first of all a lie, and you are inciting people to do violence.

That IS inciting people to violence, and you CAN potentially be arrested for that in America.

Honestly, the main problem in this thread is that half the people posting do not actually know how American free-speech laws work.

You can say "I hate black people. They're lazy and they're stealing all the white athletes' jobs" all you want. But if you go around saying "Hey! We should go kill Kobe Byrant" you have just attempted to incite violence and have committed a crime.

It's like all the people who freaked out about Obama. They can call him a nazi, socialist, communist secret-muslim all they want. But if someone actually says "Let's go kill that guy!" or "Someone should kill him!" then yes, that's illegal.

There IS a legal difference between racist and stupid comments... and direct threats or attempts to cause people harm through the use of your speech. You can say what you want, until your words begin to put other people in danger.

 

[j0frenzy]

Alright, now that I've read through more of the thread, I feel like responding more since America constitutional history is pretty much all I study. The United States used to have these 'sensible' restrictions, and then used them insensibly. Take for example the fire in a crowded theater example above. The case that that was originally about was a man protesting the draft and sending US troops to fight in Europe in WWI because it would entangle the United States in European affairs for decades. The United States Supreme Court deemed that he presented a threat to the United States government for advocating dodging the draft. The original fighting words case was a Jehova's witness who was protesting something calling a police officer that was harassing him "a damned fascist". In the 1950s through 70s (and even a little before and after than that, but mostly in that time frame), the United States went through a big overhaul of its free speech system because what seemed like sensible limitations were being used to blanket disregard Free Speech in general.

 

[Mr.Squishy]

0/10, try harder next time troll.

 

[The Ambrosian]

This thread fucking depresses me. I'm from the UK and I didn't honestly think this many people thought banning hate speech stopped them being free. For fucks sake people.

WE have hate speech banned here, and can you really say you don't consider my country to be free? Because we bloody are. Are you saying you'd prefer to have people like the WBC run free and do things like this?

I think it's disgusting that this is allowed, and have always thought it needed to be sorted out.

EDIT: To further my rant, free speech refers to your ability to speak out against your government. The ability to do shit like this is NOT what makes your country fucking free. Can you tell me, truly, that you country benefits more from having hate speech, rather than the opposite?

 

[Waffle_Man]

So tell me, where are your communist parties?

F [http://www.cpusa.org/]o [http://www.freedomroad.org/]u [http://www.socialism.com/drupal-6.8/]n [http://usmlo.org/]d [http://rwor.org/rcp-e.htm] them. [http://www.workersworld.net/]

 

[Ledan]

If you stand on a soapbox and say "We should kill all Arabs, cause they're the cause of AIDS", someone should stop you. It's first of all a lie, and you are inciting people to do violence.

That IS inciting people to violence, and you CAN potentially be arrested for that in America.

Honestly, the main problem in this thread is that half the people posting do not actually know how American free-speech laws work.

You can say "I hate black people. They're lazy and they're stealing all the white athletes' jobs" all you want. But if you go around saying "Hey! We should go kill Kobe Byrant" you have just attempted to incite violence and have committed a crime.

It's like all the people who freaked out about Obama. They can call him a nazi, socialist, communist secret-muslim all they want. But if someone actually says "Let's go kill that guy!" or "Someone should kill him!" then yes, that's illegal.

There IS a legal difference between racist and stupid comments... and direct threats or attempts to cause people harm through the use of your speech. You can say what you want, until your words begin to put other people in danger.

Don't know much about American law, thanks for the clear up.
Still, if hate speech is "Obama is Stalin in disguise", I still think it would be wrong for a politician to say something like "Black people are inferior to white people. Also, homosexuals are the cause of cancer". And hate speech is still verbal abuse, which is usually illegal.

 

[BushMonstar]

Yeah, I remember hearing about the original story where the Powell family died right before the super bowl aired.

 

[Marcus Kehoe]

Yes, lets give those idiot's who make those speeches more fuel for their fire's.

" OH they know it's true and now they are censoring me to keep the truth hidden".

Let them make their god awful speeches, and let those who a are stupid enough o believe them believe them, for the rest of us we may choose to listen or to ignore but we have a choice to do so. I'll listen then II exercise my right to give that person the finger then go give a speech about tolerance and use the preceding idiot as an example.

 

[Erttheking]

The thing is, where the Hell do you stop with something like that? Hate speech is inconvient...for most people...then you ban something else that is inconvient...and then something else. Slowly you repress things bit by bit, and you never stop. You can't just silence an entire group of people just because of what they beleive in because isn't that discriminiating in itself? Besides, there is a difference between practicing freedom of speech and harassment, if you harrass someone in this country, you can be convicted for it, that includes directing racial slurs against someone to intentionally hurt someone.

Also, in this country people like to look for racism in EVERYTHING! Need I remind you of Resident Evil 5? If hate speech were outlawed, it be a freaking nightmare because everything would be accused of being hate speech.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

I think freedom from hate is more important than freedom to be a dickhead.

 

[Kinguendo]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/09/10364954-anti-gay-westboro-baptist-church-to-protest-at-slain-powell-boys-funeral

If you're too lazy to read the article, there was an incident recently where a man killed himself and his two sons after losing custody of them. (This same man was under investigation for the disappearance of his wife two years ago). The Westboro Baptist Church is going to be holding an anti-gay protest at their funeral, because they claim that the boy's deaths were an act of vengeance from God because of Washington's recent support of homosexual rights.

And it's completely legal. Go America.

Like it or not, free speech is free speech. To ban hate speech sets a precedent that "you can say whatever you want, but if we disagree, your ass goes to jail." That destroys what free speech IS. That is a two way street.


I think Christopher Hitchens said it best. I doubt it will work, since this is a troll thread.

Yes, trolls love the idea of banning hate speech... please dont just throw that idiotic term around. I already have a problem with the original concept let alone the over-use of it to literally mean anything. I heard a person say they are "Going to troll the bathroom"... AKA going to the toilet. Unless he was going to do something in there that was not the entire purpose of the bathroom then I hardly consider that "trolling". Toilets dont even have emotions!

Not to mention "trolling" is just something to cover up a behaviour as old as the human species... being a dickhead. No one wants to be a dickhead but if you change the term to "Troll" and pretend that behaving that way on the internet doesnt matter and says nothing about who you are personally. These people arent just dickheads... they are stupid dickheads and in that sense they are true "Trolls", and oxygen thieves.

I have no problem with free speech... as long as people accept the responsibilty for their words and dont ***** and moan when someone leaves their shoe print on their arse. The problem is people use free speech like a shield, thinking they can say anything without retaliation... which is wrong. You should teach your kids to be who they are, and they can go and say anything they want but they had better be ready to lose some teeth.

 

[Ashannon Blackthorn]

Yeah I have to concur with the people saying the US needs some limit on their cherished free speech or some workaround to stop people like the WBC. Hi, Canadian here. The WBC church shows up to do their shit, they get arrested. They already know that. They won't come to Canada.

Hell, both Stephen Harper and Stockwell fucking Day said that if WBC showed up to do their protest BS they would be arrested, and charged with the full extent of Canadian law. Your right to free speech ends when you start infringing on others rights. And guess what? Protesting funerals definitely infringes on the rights of others. The families, the other mourners, the clergyman overseeing the funeral, hell even the rights of the deceased himself.

To anyone who doesn't know, Stockwell Day was a member of Parliament, former Minister of Public Safety and is more of a hardline conservative than Harper.

SO it seems maybe the US should do what Canada does. Hit them with disturbing the peace, trespassing, read their signs carefully to make sure they don't cross the line into incitement.They using little kids holding signs? Child endangerment (kid might get hurt being brought to these rallies, where violence may occur due to their own actions) Don't send em to jail, fine em as much as you can fine them. Hit them in their pocketbook. Maybe that'll work.

Also, protest the media covering them. Block the film crews. make it hard for the WBC to get the attention they crave. Also, hit on the Phelp-Ropers. Not physically. Sexually. Get a bunch of bull dykes to tell that cow Shirley (or Sheila or whatever her name is) she's hot. No crime in that. Get a bunch of flaming homosexuals to profess their undying love for ol Fred Phelps. Skirt the laws like they do. Plus it really pisses them off something fierce.

 

[rcs619]

If you stand on a soapbox and say "We should kill all Arabs, cause they're the cause of AIDS", someone should stop you. It's first of all a lie, and you are inciting people to do violence.

That IS inciting people to violence, and you CAN potentially be arrested for that in America.

Honestly, the main problem in this thread is that half the people posting do not actually know how American free-speech laws work.

You can say "I hate black people. They're lazy and they're stealing all the white athletes' jobs" all you want. But if you go around saying "Hey! We should go kill Kobe Byrant" you have just attempted to incite violence and have committed a crime.

It's like all the people who freaked out about Obama. They can call him a nazi, socialist, communist secret-muslim all they want. But if someone actually says "Let's go kill that guy!" or "Someone should kill him!" then yes, that's illegal.

There IS a legal difference between racist and stupid comments... and direct threats or attempts to cause people harm through the use of your speech. You can say what you want, until your words begin to put other people in danger.

Don't know much about American law, thanks for the clear up.
Still, if hate speech is "Obama is Stalin in disguise", I still think it would be wrong for a politician to say something like "Black people are inferior to white people. Also, homosexuals are the cause of cancer". And hate speech is still verbal abuse, which is usually illegal.

We recently had Rick Santorum, a presidential candidate, say that AIDS came from "One homosexual airline steward having sex with a monkey and then bringing it back to the US". Right now, a bunch of senators and congressmen are ranting on about how "Obama is trying to destroy our religious liberty" because he wanted to require that all hospitals have free birth control available, even hospitals affiliated with religious groups.

A politician saying that homosexuals are the cause of cancer would be pretty mild these days.

As for verbal abuse... it depends. If you walk up to someone and go "You dirty sand-n****r. Your people attacked us and I hope a predator drone killed your uncle over there" then, yes, that IS verbal abuse and is very much illegal.

A group of protesters standing in an area they obtained a permit to protest in yelling on about how their interpretation of God hates gay people, and how we should be thankful for soldiers getting killed because it is punishment for supporting homosexuality, is legal. It is stupid, morally reprehensible and hateful... but they aren't actually harassing an individual. If they did that in the middle of the night, or without the proper permits, then yes, they could be removed.

The Westburough Baptists know that though. They aren't stupid, and they fully understand the laws relating to what they are doing. That is why they are so brazen. They know exactly how far they can push the letter of the law without stepping into illegal territory. They're playing the system to get media attention. Honestly, stuff like this is exactly what they want... a bunch of people wasting their time discussing something they did.

SO it seems maybe the US should do what Canada does. Hit them with disturbing the peace, trespassing,

They have to get a permit to be there. The WBC isn't there unannounced. They had to do the paperwork to get permission to be at that spot, at that time, to protest. That is why they don't get charged with disturbing the peace, because they are there at their allotted time. They don't get charged with trespassing because they are at a spot, on public property, that the city approved.

It isn't like they are in the funeral. Most states have gotten wise to their antics, and changed their laws so that the WBC is required to be a certain distance away. The members of the funeral usually never actually see them these days. They stick the WBC off down the road a ways, and bring everyone in another way so they don't even have to deal with them.

The only people who see the WBC are the media, and people who go up to them to counter-protest.

 

[Ledan]

Hate speech is legal in Europe. If it's aimed at the white natives. Otherwise, very illegal.

Yea, our politicians are on the other end of the retard spectrum.

So afraid of being called racist they ignore racism if it's not from white people.

Personally I think I'm just gonna pack it all in and move to somewhere in Scandinavia. They seem to be pretty on the ball.

Avoid Sweden like the plague. Here you can't even have a civilized debate about immigration without being called a xenophobic-islamophobe-nazi-fascist-racist-monster.

Try Denmark or Norway. Especially Norway. They can atleast discuss it like adults.

Ahh, I was under the impression Sweden was pretty good for that type of crap, hmmm.

I was more thinking of Estonia or Amsterdam... infact, yea. Amsterdamn. I won't say why. XD

Although I suppose they're actually the Netherlands, not Scandinavia.

Oi!
You can too have a civilized discussion about immigration! In fact the popular opinion seems to be on the rise that we should have stricter immigration laws, personally I'm against that.
Stay out of Norway: most expensive place to live in the world (or always in the top 5/10). And the danish are...... danish.
Seriously though, Sweden is NOT like that.But Amsterdam might be one of the best places to live nowadays.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/09/10364954-anti-gay-westboro-baptist-church-to-protest-at-slain-powell-boys-funeral

If you're too lazy to read the article, there was an incident recently where a man killed himself and his two sons after losing custody of them. (This same man was under investigation for the disappearance of his wife two years ago). The Westboro Baptist Church is going to be holding an anti-gay protest at their funeral, because they claim that the boy's deaths were an act of vengeance from God because of Washington's recent support of homosexual rights.

And it's completely legal. Go America.

Thats actually suppose to be one of the perks of being an American, that you can hold and voice any personal held belief you want provided your not hurting anyone else.

Besides, WBC are just a minor nusciance, they don't do anything but protest. If people (Media) just ignored them for once they'd probably stop.

Or someone could take one for the team and murder them... Mind you, said Gunman would have to go to jail, but he'd go to jail a national hero dammit!!!!

Them stopping is one of two possible outcomes.

The other outcome is they do something even crazier than being them in order to get attention. Attention in America is like gold. And American's are pretty damn greedy. All that glitters, after all.

I doubt it. They may be culturally backwards but they're not stupid, and they actually make a great deal of money being professional lawyers (And they're good at it too). They wouldn't dare do something that violates the law.

I am shocked at how the media manages to be consistently shocked by them... If I ever see them, I want to counter protest by chanting "SAME OLD SHIT! SAME OLD SHIT!" at them.

 

[Ledan]

If you stand on a soapbox and say "We should kill all Arabs, cause they're the cause of AIDS", someone should stop you. It's first of all a lie, and you are inciting people to do violence.

That IS inciting people to violence, and you CAN potentially be arrested for that in America.

Honestly, the main problem in this thread is that half the people posting do not actually know how American free-speech laws work.

You can say "I hate black people. They're lazy and they're stealing all the white athletes' jobs" all you want. But if you go around saying "Hey! We should go kill Kobe Byrant" you have just attempted to incite violence and have committed a crime.

It's like all the people who freaked out about Obama. They can call him a nazi, socialist, communist secret-muslim all they want. But if someone actually says "Let's go kill that guy!" or "Someone should kill him!" then yes, that's illegal.

There IS a legal difference between racist and stupid comments... and direct threats or attempts to cause people harm through the use of your speech. You can say what you want, until your words begin to put other people in danger.

Don't know much about American law, thanks for the clear up.
Still, if hate speech is "Obama is Stalin in disguise", I still think it would be wrong for a politician to say something like "Black people are inferior to white people. Also, homosexuals are the cause of cancer". And hate speech is still verbal abuse, which is usually illegal.

We recently had Rick Santorum, a presidential candidate, say that AIDS came from "One homosexual airline steward having sex with a monkey and then bringing it back to the US". Right now, a bunch of senators and congressmen are ranting on about how "Obama is trying to destroy our religious liberty" because he wanted to require that all hospitals have free birth control available, even hospitals affiliated with religious groups.

A politician saying that homosexuals are the cause of cancer would be pretty mild these days.

As for verbal abuse... it depends. If you walk up to someone and go "You dirty sand-n****r. Your people attacked us and I hope a predator drone killed your uncle over there" then, yes, that IS verbal abuse and is very much illegal.

A group of protesters standing in an area they obtained a permit to protest in yelling on about how their interpretation of God hates gay people, and how we should be thankful for soldiers getting killed because it is punishment for supporting homosexuality, is legal. It is stupid, morally reprehensible and hateful... but they aren't actually harassing an individual. If they did that in the middle of the night, or without the proper permits, then yes, they could be removed.

The Westburough Baptists know that though. They aren't stupid, and they fully understand the laws relating to what they are doing. That is why they are so brazen. They know exactly how far they can push the letter of the law without stepping into illegal territory. They're playing the system to get media attention. Honestly, stuff like this is exactly what they want... a bunch of people wasting their time discussing something they did.

The protesters shouldn't have been given the permit then. They're speech is directed at the mourners, their claiming that the deceased deserved to die. Can't get more personal than that.

As for a politician claiming homosexuals causing cancer is mild, and the rest of it.... this is why many people call the U.S. hypocritical and dumb. No the individual people themselves, but their government and thinking that this is normal. Hope I haven't said anything offensive, don't mean to diss Americans, it just seems weird to me that you would use further examples of hate speech to say that hate speech is okay....