The weird combat of Dragon Age: Inquisition

zinho73

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Dragon Age: Origins had a very solid, traditional, tactical combat implementation, with some not so very well designed arenas (Deep Roads, anyone?). But it was very well executed technically and allowed for a lot of experimentation, with the occasional overpowered combination of abilities, which might have made the game a bit easy sometimes but it was fun, albeit slow.

Dragon Age changed the presentation of the combat, with a different camera angle and emphasis on over the top animations ? and, unfortunately, threw away a huge part of the planning involved in the combat with its uninteresting battle arenas, zero care with enemy positioning and the dreaded ?another wave? mechanism. But it was also fun, although dumber, easier and more repetitive. With that said, the new animations gave new life to the proceedings, making things more interesting for people into a more dynamic presentation. And it was also technically efficient.

Both propositions have their fair share of fans and detractors, but they both also look like the work of someone that knows what he was doing (even if, in DA2 case, the person did not have the time to do it properly).

Dragon Age Inquisition combat, however, baffles me, as it has no focus in terms of design and no competence in terms of execution. It still manages to be somewhat fun occasionally, as it is kind of built after some ideas that work, but the problems are intriguing:

1. Controls: The idea behind the combat in the previous DA games was that it would simulate a ?simultaneous turn based battle?. ?What? to do was very important, but the actual execution was mostly automated.

In Inquisition you have to position and move your character around to do some things, and you have to actually keep doing some things (pressing buttons, maneuvering to get line of sight, approaching the target to attack). The controls work if you control one character and let your party to their own devices but every time you want to do something a little more complex, the design falls apart (the tactical view is too low, there are no queued commands, characters stop doing what you told them to do, changing weapons midfight is impossible and so on). Not to mention that the interface is very poor if you are trying to do all this with a mouse and keyboard.

In both DA:O and DA2 I always managed to place my characters exactly where I want them to be (with admittedly a little bit more of work on DA2), but on Inquisition, I just do not bother.

2. Camera: trees, walls and objects keep getting in the way;

3. Confusing presentation: The ?turn-based? nature and auto-attack features of previous games also meant that the characters could be positioned within a reasonable distance from each other and from the enemies, alternating their animations.

With everyone closing in on each other or shooting from the other side of a very large area, you often do not see what?s going on. The aesthetic of the battle also suffers, with combatants misaligned or pounding the ground with no enemies on it while being shot at from God knows where.

4. The rift mechanism: while interesting as it introduces another element to think about while pounding some enemies, the fact that only the main character can interact with them makes the already laborious act of controlling everyone as a team an even less interesting proposition. It is often much more effective just control the main character in those encounters with the occasional barrier spam from the mages. Also, aiming at the barriers is sometimes a pain (see camera above).

5. Difficulty: In normal, the game is easy enough to hide the system shortcomings (you rarely NEED to do anything remotely complex in the game). In harder difficulties prepare to be annoyed fast. You still do not NEED to do anything complex to keep yourself alive, but if you don't you will be playing forever. Note to Bioware designers - giant health bars are boring, not difficult. To be fair, all three games suffer from that problem, which has just become more and more prevalent with each iteration.

The game is good, great even, if you overlook the mild case of consolitis and get into the history and other elements, but whoever was in charge of the combat dropped the ball: it is not complex, it is not varied, it is not beautifully or clearly presented, it is not nuanced, it does not control greatly, it does not bring anything new to the table. It is at best, an average system, copied from MMO?s, with worse feedback and mouse support.
 

kurupt87

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The only thing the tactical camera is good for is checking the weaknesses of the enemy, and being able to interact with Red Lyrium.

For everything else it is utterly useless.
 

Jeremy Dawkins

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I actually really like the combat, especially on my second playthrough, now that I'm a swingin' rogue with a grappling hook.
 

endtherapture

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I think there's a definite engine limitation as to why you can't get free movement with the camera. Frostbite therefore introduces the cursor thing as an extra entity in the world to solve that. It's a fairly simple workaround but definitely shows like when you can't scroll over impassable terrain with the cursor in tactical camera, which you should be able to do.

The control of tactical camera are also borderline unplayable with a mouse and keyboard. The game was designed with a console in mind and ported to PC, and it's painfully obvious that is the case. Luckily I have a gamepad and the game feels good playing with it, but it's still fairly unacceptable for a port. The tactics system is also highly nerfed which really sucks.

Overall I think it has the third best combat. Origins is better, 2 is worse. It looks exciting but you simply don't have the same control over tactics and positioning as you do in Origins.
 

zinho73

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One very subjective thing for me is that it does not look cool. Some areas are ok, but in forests and caves I simply do not see what is happening clearly enough a lot of the time.

Funny story: my wife asked me if the game was like minecraft. I asked why and she said that it was because she saw me chopping a tree. It took me a few seconds to realize she just glanced at me fighting in the woods and did not saw the enemy under the tree.
 

zinho73

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Jeremy Dawkins said:
I actually really like the combat, especially on my second playthrough, now that I'm a swingin' rogue with a grappling hook.
This skill also helps a lot with the warrior (although it works a little bit differently).
 

Grampy_bone

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zinho73 said:
Dragon Age: Origins had a very solid, traditional, tactical combat implementation, with some not so very well designed arenas (Deep Roads, anyone?). But it was very well executed technically and allowed for a lot of experimentation, with the occasional overpowered combination of abilities, which might have made the game a bit easy sometimes but it was fun, albeit slow.

Dragon Age changed the presentation of the combat, with a different camera angle and emphasis on over the top animations ? and, unfortunately, threw away a huge part of the planning involved in the combat with its uninteresting battle arenas, zero care with enemy positioning and the dreaded ?another wave? mechanism. But it was also fun, although dumber, easier and more repetitive. With that said, the new animations gave new life to the proceedings, making things more interesting for people into a more dynamic presentation. And it was also technically efficient.

Both propositions have their fair share of fans and detractors, but they both also look like the work of someone that knows what he was doing (even if, in DA2 case, the person did not have the time to do it properly).

Dragon Age Inquisition combat, however, baffles me, as it has no focus in terms of design and no competence in terms of execution. It still manages to be somewhat fun occasionally, as it is kind of built after some ideas that work, but the problems are intriguing:

1. Controls: The idea behind the combat in the previous DA games was that it would simulate a ?simultaneous turn based battle?. ?What? to do was very important, but the actual execution was mostly automated.

In Inquisition you have to position and move your character around to do some things, and you have to actually keep doing some things (pressing buttons, maneuvering to get line of sight, approaching the target to attack). The controls work if you control one character and let your party to their own devices but every time you want to do something a little more complex, the design falls apart (the tactical view is too low, there are no queued commands, characters stop doing what you told them to do, changing weapons midfight is impossible and so on). Not to mention that the interface is very poor if you are trying to do all this with a mouse and keyboard.

In both DA:O and DA2 I always managed to place my characters exactly where I want them to be (with admittedly a little bit more of work on DA2), but on Inquisition, I just do not bother.

2. Camera: trees, walls and objects keep getting in the way;

3. Confusing presentation: The ?turn-based? nature and auto-attack features of previous games also meant that the characters could be positioned within a reasonable distance from each other and from the enemies, alternating their animations.

With everyone closing in on each other or shooting from the other side of a very large area, you often do not see what?s going on. The aesthetic of the battle also suffers, with combatants misaligned or pounding the ground with no enemies on it while being shot at from God knows where.

4. The rift mechanism: while interesting as it introduces another element to think about while pounding some enemies, the fact that only the main character can interact with them makes the already laborious act of controlling everyone as a team an even less interesting proposition. It is often much more effective just control the main character in those encounters with the occasional barrier spam from the mages. Also, aiming at the barriers is sometimes a pain (see camera above).

5. Difficulty: In normal, the game is easy enough to hide the system shortcomings (you rarely NEED to do anything remotely complex in the game). In harder difficulties prepare to be annoyed fast. You still do not NEED to do anything complex to keep yourself alive, but if you don't you will be playing forever. Note to Bioware designers - giant health bars are boring, not difficult. To be fair, all three games suffer from that problem, which has just become more and more prevalent with each iteration.

The game is good, great even, if you overlook the mild case of consolitis and get into the history and other elements, but whoever was in charge of the combat dropped the ball: it is not complex, it is not varied, it is not beautifully or clearly presented, it is not nuanced, it does not control greatly, it does not bring anything new to the table. It is at best, an average system, copied from MMO?s, with worse feedback and mouse support.
This is a fair assessment.

I spent 30 minutes or so fighting the Hinterlands dragon using the tactics mode and its limitations were readily apparent.

-Can't queue commands. I would love to say "use heal potion then taunt then use shield wall"
-Ranged characters charging into melee. I could manually tell them to back off and they would stay put as long as the dragon was in view. But when the dragon flew up to a high perch and started raining down fireballs I would send my party to a safe area for cover and they would constantly shift around and try to attack the dragon no matter how many "hold position" orders I gave them.
-Characters teleporting. This is a convenience feature for normal gameplay; if the leader is separated from the rest of the party they teleport to you. I'm glad it's there but IT SHOULD BE DISABLED FOR COMBAT. Once I tried moving my archer far away from the dragon then switching to my tank, and the archer teleported right next to the dragon's feet. God. Dammit.
-Can't set up AI routines. No Vivienne, don't use Spirit Blades on the dragon. This was one where I just had to go in and disable most character abilities so they could only spam a few attacks.

In the end I was able to win through patience and careful use of abilities, once I understood the limits of tactics mode and learned to work around them. It was a fun fight but the combat tactics required were so different from regular opponents it seemed like it was meant for a whole different game.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Only put a few hours onto it (still being bored in the Hinterlands), but my reaction's been pretty much the same. Although I'd go further and just call it a hideous, buggy, dumb, fiddly mess compared to Origins and DAII.

BioWare claimed they listened to fans, right? So which set of fans honestly suggested 'Y'know what we'd like? No proper tactics!'? I don't believe any of the core DA fans would even consider that idea, and yet here it is in Inquisition.

I personally also don't think fans would've supported removing a dedicated healing discipline, and relying on a weird Estus mechanic that never seems at home in a DA.

Would fans have also supported the idea of axing proper auto-attack? Again, I doubt it. BioWare may have "listened" in DA:I's dev cycle - but to who...

As for Origins and DAII: I think both had their strengths, and weaknesses. DA:O's was a bland, fairly undramatic slog at times (though I still miss those kickass deathblows). Yet there's a depth of strategy and near limitless variety DAII lacked. DAII's combat was simpler, sure, but the basic principles that made Origins' combat work were still there, and I really like [most of] the faster, flashier animations. The Tactics were still there, too, so you had great control over how all of your companions behaved - reliably - in combat. There may have been less overall variety, but you could build specific strategies you liked in battle, and know they'd fire off at exactly the moment you needed, every time.

So far, Inquisition is a step down/back from both.
 

zinho73

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Just fought a bear in small cave recess. What a mess. Between people teleporting in and out, difference of height making attacks impossible, mages insisting in be positioned beside the bear and only a very specific camera angle allowing to see part of what was going on, it was the worse I have experienced so far.

I tried to lure the bear out, but he and Vivienne were trapped in the scenery, when I switched control to Vivienne I got her out, but someone else teleported inside and got trapped instead. Very ridiculous, really. And, I will admit, somewhat funny.

Those kind of glitches were impossible to happen on the older games. I would gladly trade off the sprawling scenery with some smaller, better designed areas, that would allow for tactical considerations, precise movement and more combat options. Or, ideally, an engine that would support a full tactical experience on such a large area.
 

zinho73

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endtherapture said:
I think there's a definite engine limitation as to why you can't get free movement with the camera. Frostbite therefore introduces the cursor thing as an extra entity in the world to solve that. It's a fairly simple workaround but definitely shows like when you can't scroll over impassable terrain with the cursor in tactical camera, which you should be able to do.

The control of tactical camera are also borderline unplayable with a mouse and keyboard. The game was designed with a console in mind and ported to PC, and it's painfully obvious that is the case. Luckily I have a gamepad and the game feels good playing with it, but it's still fairly unacceptable for a port. The tactics system is also highly nerfed which really sucks.

Overall I think it has the third best combat. Origins is better, 2 is worse. It looks exciting but you simply don't have the same control over tactics and positioning as you do in Origins.
You are right. The tactical camera cursor behaves as if it were an object in the game environment, having to go around impassible terrains and behaving oddly when there are height differences in the scenery. If it is a limitation of the engine, they should have scrapped it altogether and applied more thought to the whole thing, but they did not have the balls to do it, with all the "I'm listening to the fans" PR.
 

Smooth Operator

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Well going in I accepted that the RTS control scheme was gone so I didn't look for it.
But even though they are now concentrated on this action RPG combat they made only half of it, yes you can move and attack as expected, but enemies don't look like they are affected by attacks - they just stand there as if it's Starcraft, there seem to be no hit boxes - enemies can swing in the opposite direction and hit you, solid objects aren't solid at all - ranged attacks will at random pass through anything, characters don't need to travel - countless times I have watched NPCs just warp from one position to another not even adjusting to the right ground height.
But wait you have tactical mode... that shit does nothing, they haven't made an RTS portion either, it's just a very basic command system on top of the ARPG which helps with nothing because your party members don't give a shit about their orders.

All in all I am very glad I stopped buying Bioware games, they are just stuck chasing these top of the charts gaming ideas that make shit weird. Even their writing feels like it's mostly fan fiction.
 

bluepotatosack

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It tries to be a compromise between the styles of combat in II and origins, I think. They would have done better to go with one or the other I think. Personally I would much prefer going back to Origins style combat. I'm a bit upset at the neutered ability trees too. And no sort of persuasion skill.

I mean, there's a lot of complaints I have about the game, but I still love it so far. I'm just a bit disappointed it's not another love letter to old school CRPG's.
 

EyeReaper

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Yup, I really don't like the combat, just like you, TC. I started the game on Nightmare mode, cuz I thought "Hey, If I can do DA:O in that, this shouldn't be a problem."

It was a problem. The combination of your stupid teammates not finishing actions when you switch off (like rezzing a teammate, or rift disrupting), lack of queue and the fact that the enemy A.I. didn't really seem that challenging, everyone was just a sponge it seemed. I do appreciate that they tried melding DA 1's tactical battles with DA 2's more action oriented fighting style, but it just didn't work. Maybe next time, Bioware.
 

zegram33

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no, I honestly prefer it
personally, I prefer letting the ai work with occasional direct commands via tactical menu (go here, use this spell, etc) compared to origins awful lack of control at all.
I've heard it was different on pc, but on console at least in origins, you outright couldn't control your party from any screen (in terms of moving or waiting at choke points,you had to do it all manually, and unless you had perfectly aligned tactics for your party, everyone would just cheerfully fail at their jobs. It was playable, but not fun for me, I think because I played Dragon age II first, and the only death I had in origins that WASNT due to not being able to order my party directly was when I wasn't expecting the broodmother to have a grab attack.
Long story short: id choose inquisitions "tactical, or real time, whichever you feel" over origins, but I preferred DAII the most, what with having tactical view ALMOST as good as inquisition, but having the....im just gonna call them "gambits" for each character as well
 

Ferisar

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zegram33 said:
no, I honestly prefer it
personally, I prefer letting the ai work with occasional direct commands via tactical menu (go here, use this spell, etc) compared to origins awful lack of control at all.
I've heard it was different on pc, but on console at least in origins, you outright couldn't control your party from any screen (in terms of moving or waiting at choke points,you had to do it all manually, and unless you had perfectly aligned tactics for your party, everyone would just cheerfully fail at their jobs. It was playable, but not fun for me, I think because I played Dragon age II first, and the only death I had in origins that WASNT due to not being able to order my party directly was when I wasn't expecting the broodmother to have a grab attack.
Long story short: id choose inquisitions "tactical, or real time, whichever you feel" over origins, but I preferred DAII the most, what with having tactical view ALMOST as good as inquisition, but having the....im just gonna call them "gambits" for each character as well
I think the problem comes mainly from the PC crowd, myself included, who feel that the tactical capability was gutted in favor of the action. I still love this game, and having gotten used to the more real-time playstyle I'm more than happy with it, but it makes me sad when the overhead tactical mode is just eh and handles like eh. If they can address that and fix it in a patch soon(tm), it would be a godsend. I honestly might even start the game over if they did, just to experience everything while being adjusted to how I'm playing.

I can't say I feel as strongly as people here seem to be, but I do have some complaints. I just wouldn't consider them more than 1 or 2 points off out of a score of 100.
 

dragonswarrior

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I am still mostly in the beginning of the game (Alas, I have a busy job, and I'm sharing the game with two others) but so far I am really... enjoying the scope, and the environments, and the characters, but I'm not enjoying the combat. At all. For all the reasons already stated.

Allow me to also voice: I have no idea what fans they listened to. And they really shouldn't have used that engine. It doesn't work. It's just... The combat isn't Bioware RPG. It's not Dragon Age.

*sighs* I'm still really enjoying the game. But there are so many frustrations. In some ways it feels like Dragon Age 2 all over again.
 

zinho73

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Ferisar said:
zegram33 said:
no, I honestly prefer it
personally, I prefer letting the ai work with occasional direct commands via tactical menu (go here, use this spell, etc) compared to origins awful lack of control at all.
I've heard it was different on pc, but on console at least in origins, you outright couldn't control your party from any screen (in terms of moving or waiting at choke points,you had to do it all manually, and unless you had perfectly aligned tactics for your party, everyone would just cheerfully fail at their jobs. It was playable, but not fun for me, I think because I played Dragon age II first, and the only death I had in origins that WASNT due to not being able to order my party directly was when I wasn't expecting the broodmother to have a grab attack.
Long story short: id choose inquisitions "tactical, or real time, whichever you feel" over origins, but I preferred DAII the most, what with having tactical view ALMOST as good as inquisition, but having the....im just gonna call them "gambits" for each character as well
I think the problem comes mainly from the PC crowd, myself included, who feel that the tactical capability was gutted in favor of the action. I still love this game, and having gotten used to the more real-time playstyle I'm more than happy with it, but it makes me sad when the overhead tactical mode is just eh and handles like eh. If they can address that and fix it in a patch soon(tm), it would be a godsend. I honestly might even start the game over if they did, just to experience everything while being adjusted to how I'm playing.

I can't say I feel as strongly as people here seem to be, but I do have some complaints. I just wouldn't consider them more than 1 or 2 points off out of a score of 100.
Yeah, there is certainly some nostalgia in the air when someone criticizes the combat. But I honestly think that even if you like this new approach it is still badly executed for all the reasons I have already mentioned.

It is understandable if you prefer the more "hands off" system, but I don't think anyone would want points 2 and 3 of my initial topic, for example - and they are frequent. I am really impressed at how often I lose sight of what is happening during the fight.
I manage the fight watching the health bars and not the actual fighting, which is bizarre.

And I do agree that those issues will have a different weight for different players, though - specially in a game with so many other things to do besides combat.
 

zinho73

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dragonswarrior said:
I am still mostly in the beginning of the game (Alas, I have a busy job, and I'm sharing the game with two others) but so far I am really... enjoying the scope, and the environments, and the characters, but I'm not enjoying the combat. At all. For all the reasons already stated.

Allow me to also voice: I have no idea what fans they listened to. And they really shouldn't have used that engine. It doesn't work. It's just... The combat isn't Bioware RPG. It's not Dragon Age.

*sighs* I'm still really enjoying the game. But there are so many frustrations. In some ways it feels like Dragon Age 2 all over again.
I hear you.
I guess the franchise kind of lost its personality with its mainstream focus.
But this one at least is not super rushed (it was still launched before interface and controls were aced, but its EA, I can only imagine the pressure around Bioware to put this thing out).
 

Verzin

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It's okay. Like others said above the game is undeniably optimized and designed for consoles. The combat is okay I guess. Everyone else already mentioned the big problems(no autoattack, gutted tactics, bad camera).

dragon spoilers I guess.
[spoiler "dragon Spoilers"]All the dragons so far are the same. I've killed four of them, so there is hope for variation. The only one I've seen that had different mechanics was the lightning dragon. It had an attack that caused an AOE around all your characters that would do damage if they were in the AOE of others with the same debuff. then it would pull you in like all the dragons do. It killed me a few times before I realized that I could simply ignore and shield through it. kind like all of the dragons attacks. just a war of attrition while managing barrier cooldowns.
The dragon fights are just not interesting for me anymore. The first one was the best, but after one realizes how broken barrier CD reducing is when you use multiple mages...all the challenge drops out of them, on hard difficulty with friendly fire on, at least. maybe nightmare is different.[/spoiler]

for me it feels like it really wants to be a good RPG, and really it's pretty decent, but it's just so streamlined and gimped for consoles, so it can appeal better to a mainstream audience, that It just doesn't work well.

I honestly think that bioware will never make another pure RPG ever again. It simply will not happen as long as they are Bioware:EA. Too much of a niche market.
 

Echopunk

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The lack of feedback on successfully landed attacks for enemies or players is a big problem for me. It would be one hell of an archer who could still hit their mark with a guy driving a pair of daggers into him. There have been times where I can see the enemies targeting a party member who is close to death, and I try to heroically rescue them with a quick kill, but the only effect the attack has is to decrease the enemies health. If my spells or Rift manipulations can be interrupted even without downright killing my character, I should damn well be able to do the same to the enemies.

I died a lot early on, because I was watching the action and not the health bars for my team. My rogue was jumping around, doing that warp jump/flank strike, etc and all of a sudden he fell over dead and I was confused. I don't think I was even aware of him taking hits.

If my party is periodically treated as if it were entirely composed of paper machet dolls, it is absolute B.S. to have to whittle away an enemy's health bar for ever. I have had fights where, even with the R2 to advance time level of control, if the elite/boss/etc managed to get a full column of guard/barrier up before I was able to gang up and kill them, I just re-loaded a save and started the entire fight over.

The combat is somewhat fun against things almost equal to, or weaker than the party, because you feel like the badass that you are made out to be, but as soon as a challenge is introduced, the clunky control/braindead ai/and asinine hit detection makes it feel like a chore.

I've resorted to using the warrior's chain to pull enemies out of a group, one at a time, so my team can enact a pinata party and stomp them into the ground. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I found out I could hunt things a few levels above me by relying on Stealth + Poison + Full Bend, then Warrior Chain, then whatever else I needed. Again, if I accidentally aggro'd an extra monster, I might as well just reload and try again.

It is a shame the combat was so poorly designed/implemented in this game.