There are no two words in the English language more harmful than "good job".

[Zhukov]

Yet here we are, still ambling along.

Oh, but this time, this time it's real. Unlike every previous generation of aging alarmists staring down the barrel of impeding irrelevance, you're right when you say the youth of today are going down the shitter. You're actually on to something! This time it's serious!

Y'know, just like every other time.

I think you need to look at how different today's world is from just 30 years ago. There has been no "other time" of an interconnected world, 24-hour media, the Internet, instant communication and mass message propagation, made easy when mega-entertainment companies own most of that media I mentioned before.

I could talk about a lot of ways the world looks nothing like it did a few generations ago, not even close, and how it looks to be turned on its head again in the future, but you're either too optimistic about society or pessimistic about the likelihood of declining civilizations.

You know, the fall of empires, just like every other time in history that's happened.

Ah yes, the fate of empires. You make a compelling point.

After all, it's widely known that the Mongol empire fell largely because of the insidious influence of participation ribbons. And let us not forget the well documented historical fact that the Aztec empire went into decline when they began disallowing their athletes from running up the score on their defeated opponents.

All the signs are there. The seas boil, reality television keeps getting high ratings, a red moon rises and somewhere, right now, a parent is congratulating their child for getting a B+. Truly, our civilization is headed for dark days.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Out of interest, do those condemning the next generation think the last generation was brought up right? I mean, given that they are the ones running the world today.

 

[Loonyyy]

Yet here we are, still ambling along.

Oh, but this time, this time it's real. Unlike every previous generation of aging alarmists staring down the barrel of impeding irrelevance, you're right when you say the youth of today are going down the shitter. You're actually on to something! This time it's serious!

Y'know, just like every other time.

I think you need to look at how different today's world is from just 30 years ago. There has been no "other time" of an interconnected world, 24-hour media, the Internet, instant communication and mass message propagation, made easy when mega-entertainment companies own most of that media I mentioned before.

I could talk about a lot of ways the world looks nothing like it did a few generations ago, not even close, and how it looks to be turned on its head again in the future, but you're either too optimistic about society or pessimistic about the likelihood of declining civilizations.

You know, the fall of empires, just like every other time in history that's happened.

Ah yes, the fate of empires. You make a compelling point.

After all, it's widely known that the Mongol empire fell largely because of the insidious influence of participation ribbons. And let us not forget the well documented historical fact that the Aztec empire went into decline when they began disallowing their athletes from running up the score on their defeated opponents.

All the signs are there. The seas boil, reality television keeps getting high ratings, a red moon rises and somewhere, right now, a parent is congratulating their child for getting a B+. Truly, our civilization is headed for dark days.

Don't forget Rome. It wasn't the division of the empire, the displacement of "barbarian" tribes on their borders, the ending of religious tolerance, a waning military reliant on the employment of those same "barbarians" and the increasing decadance of the elite.

Nope, it was the damn participation award.

 

[FalloutJack]

Out of interest, do those condemning the next generation think the last generation was brought up right? I mean, given that they are the ones running the world today.

Every generation condemns in both directions. It's equality in practice!

 

[KissingSunlight]

Alright, well let me clarify and counter some of the points that have been made.

I'm not pro-spanking as I am pro-consequence. If you do something wrong that was harmful to someone else, you should be punished. If you are competing against someone else and you fail miserably, you should not receive an award or trophy.

How do I feel about spanking? It should be reserved for the most serious offenses. At the very least, when the child keeps doing the same thing and isn't responding to other methods of punishments.

Someone did observe correctly that my job doesn't put me in regular contact with polite Mensa members. I don't regularly sit around with the people I deal with and drink tea and have delightful conversations like: Is Joss Whedon the greatest, or the greatest ever? (Yep, not only Whedonverse fan. Also, ColbertNation fan.)

I feel about Terrence Fletcher(JK Simmons) in Whiplash the same way as I do Col. Jessup (Jack Nicholson) in A Few Good Men. Both men were wrong, because they went too far. They did not do it out of malice. They were trying to instill discipline in people that were under them. So, they are not role models. They are not exactly hiss-worthy villains either.

I've already called out my original post as sounding like an old man complaining about the younger generation. If you parse what I was saying in the original post, there are a lot of people wondering around with an unjust sense of entitlement. For the longest time, I have been trying to figure out why. I thought these people are just stupid. No doubt, many of them are not that smart. So, I floated a theory in this thread that it could be how these people are being raised.

By the way, I wasn't trying to paint everybody in the younger generations the same way. I have never been a fan of generalizing a generation. I was trying to call attention about people we all have to deal with everyday. Asking, can we do something about it?

Which leads me to my final point, I think it's harmful to try rationalize and justify behaviors that are rude, stupid, and criminal. When people make excuses for people who are clearly in the wrong, it is essentially telling them "Good Job" for being an asshole. I feel that is more harmful that what the unjustly entitled people are doing.

 

[Dalisclock]

Encouragement will always produce better results than punishment. Especially in children. You simply have a stronger motivation to improve and succeed in a safe environment where you're allowed, even encouraged to fail. Because failures are probably the best teachers you can find. Punishment on the other hand discourages people from continuing, trying again and ultimately improving.
And even if you punish someone for failing, and that person works through it and still wants to continue, the punishment a rather nasty side effect: it makes the person want to do what's right instead of creating something completely new. Punishment effectively forces people into molds of what is considered acceptable and correct, instead of thinking outside of the box and developing the field in a new direction.

The "participation award" problem is nothing more than a myth - and a harmful one at that, since that kind of shallow logic actually resonates with people.

I used to work for a boss who didn't seem to understand encouragement, or if he did, his definition was the same as most sane people would define punishment. He would sometimes promise us good things if we did well, which never, ever happened because his definition of "we did well" was fleeting and changing depending on his mood(AKA one single thing that pissed him off on an otherwise good day would lead to us being punished, even if it was nothing within our control).

It didn't make us better workers. It demoralized us and made us all dread hearing his voice. Everyone, including people who didn't work for him, breathed a massive sigh of relief when he left. So pretty much agree 100%.

As far as the participation award thing goes, I keep hearing about it, and yet have never, ever seen any kind of proof it exists, let alone been implemented on a wide enough scale to be a problem. Kind of like being in the military and hearing about the infamous "Stress cards", which I never, ever saw or talked to anyone who saw them. Both, however, are inevitable trotted out by people who like to claim that this generation is soft and will be the end of civilization as we know it.

 

[Lilani]

I think it's peculiar that a lot of the ire here is being transferred to the children and themselves, meaning the millennial generation, as though it's their fault they're being raised like this. The so-called "participation generation" is not the millennials, it's Gen Y and perhaps a bit of Gen X. Millennials didn't ask schools to stop playing dodge ball, schools stopped playing dodge ball because they didn't want a child to get injured and then have their parents sue the school. Millennials didn't ask schools to stop keeping score in games or stop doing competitive stuff in gym, that was a concern over bullying and teen suicide rates--again, something schools don't want to be found to be encouraging or aiding. Millennials didn't ask to not be spanked, their parents made that call.

Personally, I can see benefit to both sides of this "participation" issue. I do think there's value in teaching children what failure is, but I also think competitive games in school fail to do this as much as completely taking away all competition does. In school, I was the fat one, so I was always chosen last for sports and my team more often than not lost. This taught me the valuable lesson of laying low and taking as little responsibility as possible so I contribute very little to our loss. I never learned how to deal with failure, nobody ever followed up with me and said what I should do with this frustration. So I just went my own way with it, which was deciding that sports are insipid wastes of time and the athletic people in my class were assholes. And they were not taught how to deal with failure either, which meant they carried their frustration against out of class as well.

So yeah, I played competitive sports and dodgeball in gym, and the only thing it taught me about competition was that I hated it, and that failure must be avoided at all costs. Which is funny, because in my adult life people keep telling me failures are learning experiences. I think if we're going to have schools take up the task of teaching failure, we should at least make sure it's done properly. And I don't believe just throwing some rubber balls at kids and telling them to run around with them without any guidance does much on that front, beyond enhancing and concentrating the dog-eat-dog mentality students often harbor against one another.

 

[silversnake4133]

I don't know man, the words "you're guilty" can have some pretty life ruining effects too.

 

[gorfias]

"Charlie parker would never be discouraged", my ass?

And it really shouldn't take having a military drill instructor's personality to get artists to perform. They do it because it is a passion.

I've heard Mozart may have been the 2nd greatest Composer in known history. He wasn't harassed into greatness. I understand his Dad doted on him.

 

[carnex]

Ah yes, the fate of empires. You make a compelling point.

After all, it's widely known that the Mongol empire fell largely because of the insidious influence of participation ribbons. And let us not forget the well documented historical fact that the Aztec empire went into decline when they began disallowing their athletes from running up the score on their defeated opponents.

All the signs are there. The seas boil, reality television keeps getting high ratings, a red moon rises and somewhere, right now, a parent is congratulating their child for getting a B+. Truly, our civilization is headed for dark days.

Actually it's accepted that every kingdom/empire that came out of Mongolian steps dissolved within 3-4 generations due to mellowing out through acceptance of far less harsh and demanding culture of people they conquered. Once they lost daily demands of their environment, lifestyle and culture they lost their edge.

Don't forget Rome. It wasn't the division of the empire, the displacement of "barbarian" tribes on their borders, the ending of religious tolerance, a waning military reliant on the employment of those same "barbarians" and the increasing decadence of the elite.

Nope, it was the damn participation award.

Actually, it was, not in the small part to the mellowing out of their military tradition and tradition of en-mass enrolment into military and its harsh life. Once they started employing "barbarians" they started eroding. Not the only factor, and also one of the symptoms of large scale corruption and decadence, but never the less truth.

As usual, people look at the problem in black-white divide. Negative reinforcement is needed and is as important as positive reinforcement. Of course different people react differently to one or other, and balance is dependent on individual but one should never be afraid to tell their kid/protege/student "you failed, back to training".

 

[Bellvedere]

I don't know about this "special snowflake"/"kids these days are so entitled" business. People just have different perceptions, different experiences, different expectations. Not wrong, not entitled, not moronic. Just different. Everyone needs a mix of encouragement and criticism and probably different levels to achieve the best level of communication with any particular individual.

Should probably not worry so much about how others are treated or see themselves. We all have to deal with people we think are arseholes or brats at some point. There's probably people who think those things about you. It's less a "kids these day" issue and more a "we're just not going to get on with everyone with meet" thing and because we're absolutely biased to our own point of view we're going to recognise whatever factor means we can't see eye to eye with them some massive flaw in their character or world view.