Thief 2, System Shock 2 Get Surprise Updates

[Tippy]

If they managed to keep 99% of Thief 2's core aspects and simply given the visuals an overhaul, I'm going to have a FAN-GASM. And so is Yahtzee.

I haven't re-played Thief 2 for a long time but this looks like a solid reason to play through it again (not that it needs a bloody reason in the first place ).

 

[Scars Unseen]

I've already crammed both Thief Gold and Thief 2 (Steam versions) full of mods that makes them more easy to the eye, like proper HD resolution and some new textures and improved models, but nothing too fancy, just to make them more stable and playable in Windows 7 (also, it's a treat to play them with antialiasing).

Granted, I seriously don't know or can't see how this will improve them both with their already extensive number of improvements that fans have been making for the last 14 years.

Or if it's the exact same mod I'm using, I apologize for my ignorance.

If it's any indication at all, the people that made those mods you are using are throwing around various celebration gifs on the TTLG forums at this news. This patch fixes some substantial flaws both in the games and the game editors as well as extending the functionality of both. Click on the source at the top of the page for more info.

 

[Sol_HSA]

Less than who, I'd love to know HOW this patch was made. The scope of the changes tells me it had to be re-compiled from source code. Which means, someone has the sources. Which also would explain why he/she isn't coming forward..

 

[NLS]

Less than who, I'd love to know HOW this patch was made. The scope of the changes tells me it had to be re-compiled from source code. Which means, someone has the sources. Which also would explain why he/she isn't coming forward..

This is what's interesting me. If the source is available in any form, it means we can start porting the games to just about any platform as well. But the legal issues behind source code of over 10 year old games is another matter. Just hoping this patch isn't the only we'll see of a potential release of the source code.

 

[Fasckira]

Looks like I'll be playing Thief 2 again in the run up to Dishonoured. Good job I've banked a lot of sleep lately.

 

[Sol_HSA]

Less than who, I'd love to know HOW this patch was made. The scope of the changes tells me it had to be re-compiled from source code. Which means, someone has the sources. Which also would explain why he/she isn't coming forward..

This is what's interesting me. If the source is available in any form, it means we can start porting the games to just about any platform as well. But the legal issues behind source code of over 10 year old games is another matter. Just hoping this patch isn't the only we'll see of a potential release of the source code.

I tried to track down lookingglass legal status, and apparently nobody really knows. After bankruptcy the legal rights have gone all over the place and nobody really knows. I'd love to have their games open sourced - my principal interest was terra nova:strike force centauri, but others are interesting as well.

So again, I'm not surprised the patch came "out of nowhere".

 

[PiCroft]

I admit, I squeeed more than a little.

 

[octafish]

Look at you hacker...look indeed, you're looking pretty good...for a pathetic insect.

So SS2 might make it off my Xp/98 netbook and onto my big boy PC now. Outstanding!

 

[Spitfire]

Oh. My. GOD.

Do excuse me. It appears that I need to change my pants.

 

[Dfskelleton]

I actually don't have any issue with Thief or System Shock 2's visuals, but still, this looks freaking amazing. I'm downloading the SS2 demo now.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Less than who, I'd love to know HOW this patch was made. The scope of the changes tells me it had to be re-compiled from source code. Which means, someone has the sources. Which also would explain why he/she isn't coming forward..

If I had to guess, I'd say it has a lot to do with this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Engine#Source_Code]. Whether it's the full source from a former developer or some random third party that got the version from the Dreamcast dev kit is anyone's guess, but I'd say your probably right in that the stealth release might have been done to avoid another Geohot incident.

 

[cathou]

Pardon, mais je parle Francais. Considering the fact that it is LE Corbeau and not LA Corbeau, we can assume that it's a man that made this. Or maybe screen names know no gender boundaries in France, I'm not sure.

Well you're right on that account. The Le definitely implies masculinity. I find the name quite intriguing considering that Le Corbusier was the pseudonym of a particularly famous and notably eccentric architect. Exactly what the connection might be between Le Corbeau and Le Corbusier, or even if there actually is one, I can not say... however I think it does present some interesting possibilities if the name is meant as an allusion.

i dont really think that the fact he or she used corbeau as name mean anything. we say le corbeau for femal crow too, la corbeau is just impossible. Anyway, he (let say he, just to not add to the text shall we) used the screen name corbeau, because he start his post with the Jean de lafontaine fable, the fox and the crow. his post is contructed like the fable.

the guys at ariane put the theory that he might be somebody at eidos montreal. possible, however i dont think so. the use of a camembert cheese in his post, suggest more a france origin, since that cheese is not very popular here, and i think somebody from montreal wouldnt had used that word. i know it's a bit of a speculation here, but thrust me on this.

the other thing that is strange is that so far that guy was the first to show up with those files, on a french forum, but with english documentation in the files. that make me believe that he's only the visible person of a much larger group that might have worked on this

 

[ResonanceGames]

I'd more strongly suspect someone at Arkane working with the leaked Source code than I would someone at Eidos Montreal (apparently the Dark Engine was accidentally sold off Looking Glass's computers anyway, so Eidos doesn't have it).

The Arkane guys are true diehard fans who would potentially have the drive to do something like this. It's doubtful this was done by a non-professional. This is a very complex piece of work.

 

[Sol_HSA]

Less than who, I'd love to know HOW this patch was made. The scope of the changes tells me it had to be re-compiled from source code. Which means, someone has the sources. Which also would explain why he/she isn't coming forward..

If I had to guess, I'd say it has a lot to do with this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Engine#Source_Code]. Whether it's the full source from a former developer or some random third party that got the version from the Dreamcast dev kit is anyone's guess, but I'd say your probably right in that the stealth release might have been done to avoid another Geohot incident.

That, or some third (or fourth, or fifth...) copy somewhere.

Anyway, getting things open sourced requires three things, none of which are trivial:

1) Legal rights. Sometimes these are very hazy. Sometimes people don't know what they own. In many cases it doesn't make sense for people to give up the rights, or even spend the money to verify they have the rights. What's there for EA to gain for open sourcing magic carpet? What if magic carpet happens to violate a bunch of patents?

2) Sources. In many game companies in the past nobody really cared about retaining all old sources, and even in those that did, the complete set of source code isn't necessarily around. In some cases third parties actually have better collection of game source code than the original companies!

3) People to tidy up and modernize the code. Lots of old game projects are an unholy mess. Often they depend on libraries licensed from third parties. It takes effort to clean these things up, possibly before public release, so you need a bunch of good people working pro bono under NDA doing the cleanup. This again loops back to the first point, where the rights owner probably wants to cover their backside by making sure there's no more stuff there that can be harmful.

 

[Rad Party God]

Looks like it's way beyond what modders have been able to do for the last decade or so... I'll give it a try (if it doesn't screw my current saves, I'm okay with it).

My only question right now is, does it work for Thief Gold too?, or just for Thief 2?.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Less than who, I'd love to know HOW this patch was made. The scope of the changes tells me it had to be re-compiled from source code. Which means, someone has the sources. Which also would explain why he/she isn't coming forward..

If I had to guess, I'd say it has a lot to do with this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Engine#Source_Code]. Whether it's the full source from a former developer or some random third party that got the version from the Dreamcast dev kit is anyone's guess, but I'd say your probably right in that the stealth release might have been done to avoid another Geohot incident.

That, or some third (or fourth, or fifth...) copy somewhere.

Anyway, getting things open sourced requires three things, none of which are trivial:

1) Legal rights. Sometimes these are very hazy. Sometimes people don't know what they own. In many cases it doesn't make sense for people to give up the rights, or even spend the money to verify they have the rights. What's there for EA to gain for open sourcing magic carpet? What if magic carpet happens to violate a bunch of patents?

2) Sources. In many game companies in the past nobody really cared about retaining all old sources, and even in those that did, the complete set of source code isn't necessarily around. In some cases third parties actually have better collection of game source code than the original companies!

3) People to tidy up and modernize the code. Lots of old game projects are an unholy mess. Often they depend on libraries licensed from third parties. It takes effort to clean these things up, possibly before public release, so you need a bunch of good people working pro bono under NDA doing the cleanup. This again loops back to the first point, where the rights owner probably wants to cover their backside by making sure there's no more stuff there that can be harmful.

Number 1 is the big problem, and it isn't even as simple as you make it out to be. Fact is that EA couldn't open the source if they wanted to because they don't own the rights to the game, but rather the trademark(well kind of... they abandoned that as well apparently). Looking Glass Studios held the rights to the game itself, and when they went belly up in 2000, their insurance agency gained the rights, and has been holding on to them ever since. So in order to open up the source, you would have to:

1) Have the source available. Apparently not a problem, if this patch is any indication.

2) Get the blessing of an insurance agency (an industry not known for its generosity)

3) Get the blessing from EA (a company known for killing franchises, not reviving them for the good of mankind)

4) Have people willing to clean up the code (again, not a problem apparently since someone has already done exactly that)

In all likelihood, the only way you would ever get a (legally) open source System Shock 2 is if someone included it as part of a deal to make System Shock 3. Before Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition was announced, I would have said that this is an impossibility, but now it seems that there is a movement going on to recapture the spirit of older games, what with Project Eternity, Wasteland 2, BGEE, Tim Schafer's adventure game, and so on. So who knows?

 

[Scars Unseen]

Looks like it's way beyond what modders have been able to do for the last decade or so... I'll give it a try (if it doesn't screw my current saves, I'm okay with it).

My only question right now is, does it work for Thief Gold too?, or just for Thief 2?.

It works for both, though you have to change a line in one of the config files to get it to work with Thief Gold. See the link to the TTLG forums in the article for details.

 

[ResonanceGames]

Actually, I believe Looking Glass Studios retained the rights to the Dark Engine source code, which probably then went on to Eidos (the code itself, however, is MIA). The engine was just licensed to Irrational and EA for SS2. Star Insurance owns the content copyrights, so Shodan, the Von Braun, the plot, etc.

But yeah, the only chance of a source code release is if a more complete version than what we got from the Dreamcast devkit "accidentally" leaks somewhere.

 

[Sol_HSA]

Number 1 is the big problem, and it isn't even as simple as you make it out to be. Fact is that EA couldn't open the source if they wanted to because they don't own the rights to the game, but rather the trademark(well kind of... they abandoned that as well apparently). Looking Glass Studios held the rights to the game itself, and when they went belly up in 2000, their insurance agency gained the rights, and has been holding on to them ever since. So in order to open up the source, you would have to:

1) Have the source available. Apparently not a problem, if this patch is any indication.

2) Get the blessing of an insurance agency (an industry not known for its generosity)

3) Get the blessing from EA (a company known for killing franchises, not reviving them for the good of mankind)

4) Have people willing to clean up the code (again, not a problem apparently since someone has already done exactly that)

In all likelihood, the only way you would ever get a (legally) open source System Shock 2 is if someone included it as part of a deal to make System Shock 3. Before Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition was announced, I would have said that this is an impossibility, but now it seems that there is a movement going on to recapture the spirit of older games, what with Project Eternity, Wasteland 2, BGEE, Tim Schafer's adventure game, and so on. So who knows?

I used EA as an example, not related to system shock at all - those three things I listed were general terms related to any old game project one might want to open source.

And yes, the legal stuff is horribly complicated. There's one certain franchise where the original developers would want to open source the game, but the one person who owns the rights (CEO of another company) does not even answer their calls. And why should he - he doesn't have anything to gain, and possibly a lot to lose.

Another game project by a company that merged a couple of times, folded, got sold to another party etc. lead the rights to be owned by an "offshore" gambling site. But no worries, during the acquisition chain at one point the source code was ordered to be destroyed so that it wouldn't be a potential legal liability.

One thing I'd love to hear an answer for is what the legal status of source code is, copyright wise.. would it be possible just to wait it out. But since source code was never released, it doesn't have a release date..

Anyway. Sometimes one can get lucky, like I got with death rally. So it's worth trying.

 

[antidonkey]

Damn. This really makes me wish I knew what the hell happened to my copy of System Shock 2. I have a feeling I let a friend borrow it and I haven't spoken to said friend in many, many years......but I don't recall what friend it may have been. Le sigh.