Thief's Risky Reboot
- Thread starter Shamus Young
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I hate it that they (new Splinter Cell etc.) are trying to sell this idea that emotions and stunts are the reason for changing actors. Even though, as mentioned, in SC and in Thief we don't actually see the faces that much (or at all) during the action scenes or gameplay (thus most of the game) anyway.
Also they mostly record and dub voices later anyway, since it doesn't matter what the quality of graphics is there's always some problems (they do it even for movies for heaven's sake). Most of it is done by separate face and body capturing anyway.
And EVEN when you motion capture everything, there's a lot of post-processing that has to be done, it's not like you're doing a 2d cartoon and rotoscoping over film, you have take the data then have to fix it up and polish it so it looks right.
On another note, the usual complaint about voices is either that the voice sounds wrong (wrong actor), bad acting in general or that the syncing was messed up and all those can happen with motion capture as well. So it basically doesn't matter in that area.
I'd really like to see who the hell oversees the budget for these projects and says this is less expensive and that this (cutscense and animation motion capture) needs more money than actual gameplay because it's so noticeable (wasn't noticeable or as important for the last 30 years, but now it's crucial for some reason).
Also the equipment rental, studios, props, more actors, more time etc. is cheaper than animating? Really?
Also they mostly record and dub voices later anyway, since it doesn't matter what the quality of graphics is there's always some problems (they do it even for movies for heaven's sake). Most of it is done by separate face and body capturing anyway.
And EVEN when you motion capture everything, there's a lot of post-processing that has to be done, it's not like you're doing a 2d cartoon and rotoscoping over film, you have take the data then have to fix it up and polish it so it looks right.
On another note, the usual complaint about voices is either that the voice sounds wrong (wrong actor), bad acting in general or that the syncing was messed up and all those can happen with motion capture as well. So it basically doesn't matter in that area.
I'd really like to see who the hell oversees the budget for these projects and says this is less expensive and that this (cutscense and animation motion capture) needs more money than actual gameplay because it's so noticeable (wasn't noticeable or as important for the last 30 years, but now it's crucial for some reason).
Also the equipment rental, studios, props, more actors, more time etc. is cheaper than animating? Really?
This new Thief game sounds like its going to be Assassins Creed (only in first person) with acted and mocapped cut scenes that don't need to be there.
I really hate to be that guy, but I feel this "console market" has ruined so many games and will continue to do so as long as the publishers continue to see it as a gold mine. It is not a gold mine, in fact its more like an oil well that is about 2/3 empty and is shrinking down to nothing, and fast.
I really hate to be that guy, but I feel this "console market" has ruined so many games and will continue to do so as long as the publishers continue to see it as a gold mine. It is not a gold mine, in fact its more like an oil well that is about 2/3 empty and is shrinking down to nothing, and fast.
Well Splinter Cell has always been an action oriented spy game where the array of moves and gadgets available is a selling point and while it is bizarre they cant continue producing SC games by the obviously massively obsolete technique of hiring competent animators the motion capture stuff could theoretically look better. In Thief however there really is no excuse, Thief games are based on tense and slow creeping about not feats of adrenaline gushing acrobatic magnificence. Having played both Splinter Cell and Thief I(though not being a devout fan of either) I can totally see why fans are getting cynical.The Deadpool said:
You know, I shouldn't be surprised about every other fan screaming and shouting "betrayal!" like it's a mantra. But I really want this game and i'm still looking forward to it because it's still important enough. It is also looking like i'll be forcing myself to do a media blackout on this title before it arrives. Modernized games not selling isn't new, reboots aren't new. This game been in development for a long time and i'll be taking the benefit of the doubt.
Hi everyone.
I just wanted to post and let you know that there is a community petition in support of getting Stephen Russell back in Thief 4 going around. We would appreciate your support. If you would like to send a message to Eidos Montreal, letting them know that we completely disagree with their decision to replace Stephen Russell, then please sign the petition. They may not listen, but at least we will expressed how we feel.
https://www.change.org/petitions/eidos-montreal-square-enix-bring-back-stephen-russell-for-thief-4#
There are currently 2900+ signatures, with nearly 1000 of those signatures gathered in the last 24 hours.
I just wanted to post and let you know that there is a community petition in support of getting Stephen Russell back in Thief 4 going around. We would appreciate your support. If you would like to send a message to Eidos Montreal, letting them know that we completely disagree with their decision to replace Stephen Russell, then please sign the petition. They may not listen, but at least we will expressed how we feel.
https://www.change.org/petitions/eidos-montreal-square-enix-bring-back-stephen-russell-for-thief-4#
There are currently 2900+ signatures, with nearly 1000 of those signatures gathered in the last 24 hours.
WAT. I did not know they changed voice actors?JUMBO PALACE said:
The fuck? It just seems pointless, the originals aren't dead, you're not getting new fans (who picks out a new game SOLELY based on the voice actor?) you're only alienating old fans and fucking with the reputation that the most vocal people will brand it with.
All of this makes me very annoyed ):< developers, y u so dumb.
you knowwhats bad about this? I have never played a thief game, and hearing that there are prerendered cut scenes, expensive face capturing technology and motion capture animation for stunts does not make me want to buy the new one. So already they are losing out on a sale, one they will need if they act like Squinix or THQ did.
too bad
too bad
Wait... 3 wasn't drawings? It sure looked like that when I played it.wetfart said:I remember when Thief: Deadly Shadows came out. While I enjoyed the game, I missed the simple drawings used in Thief 1 and 2.
Captcha: fuddy - duddy
I guess I am.
The first two games used drawings for the Mission Briefings, but Thief 3 did away with those and only had voice over and text. The Cut Scenes were a combination of hand drawn art manipulated in Photoshop and After Effects. In Thief 3 they ran out of time and money, so half of the cutscenes were rendered ingame with half finished 3d models.Korten12 said:Wait... 3 wasn't drawings? It sure looked like that when I played it.wetfart said:I remember when Thief: Deadly Shadows came out. While I enjoyed the game, I missed the simple drawings used in Thief 1 and 2.
Captcha: fuddy - duddy
I guess I am.
Oh. I still thought the cutscenes in 3 were good...New Horizon said:The first two games used drawings for the Mission Briefings, but Thief 3 did away with those and only had voice over and text. The Cut Scenes were a combination of hand drawn art manipulated in Photoshop and After Effects. In Thief 3 they ran out of time and money, so half of the cutscenes were rendered ingame with half finished 3d models.Korten12 said:Wait... 3 wasn't drawings? It sure looked like that when I played it.wetfart said:I remember when Thief: Deadly Shadows came out. While I enjoyed the game, I missed the simple drawings used in Thief 1 and 2.
Captcha: fuddy - duddy
I guess I am.
The cutscenes produced in the same manner as those in Thief 1 and 2 were awesome.Korten12 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tpVMejolGA
The ones they had to rush together with unfished ingame models were less so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxloIg0ByLI
You know, I had nothing against changing actors. I love Stephen's work but I've seen films changing actors in the middle of a trilogy, looks weird at first but when you get used it's all normal again. BUT, as Shamus said, that is the most stupid excuse for a change of actor. My god, Darth Vader has a different actor and a different voice actor. It works fine! We don't even need to go that far, action films use voice overs all the time because it's difficult/impossible/impractical to record them on-set in specific circumstances.
This, and all that came before, just doesn't reassure me that these people know what they're doing and that they understand Thief.
Thief is going to be one of those classics that will fail to come back over and over again.
This, and all that came before, just doesn't reassure me that these people know what they're doing and that they understand Thief.
Thief is going to be one of those classics that will fail to come back over and over again.
Great article guys.
I actually read the developer's argument for dropping Russell as them just being tight-arses. They didn't want to have to pay two people, one for the voice acting and one for the mo-cap. What is ridiculous is why the need for mo-cap? The Thief games work better in first person IMO. Deadly Shadows always seemed a bit jinky when you were in third person mode.
I'd be more than happy to see the hand drawn, Photoshopped cut-scenes than some full rendered 3D affair because the former is more appropriate to Thiefs style and tone. It harkens back to medieval illustrations and such. I don't care if they originally did it to reduce costs, it looks bloody brilliant.
I actually read the developer's argument for dropping Russell as them just being tight-arses. They didn't want to have to pay two people, one for the voice acting and one for the mo-cap. What is ridiculous is why the need for mo-cap? The Thief games work better in first person IMO. Deadly Shadows always seemed a bit jinky when you were in third person mode.
I'd be more than happy to see the hand drawn, Photoshopped cut-scenes than some full rendered 3D affair because the former is more appropriate to Thiefs style and tone. It harkens back to medieval illustrations and such. I don't care if they originally did it to reduce costs, it looks bloody brilliant.
Ugh, of course there is a petition. In fact I'm sure I've seen more than one for Thief 4. It's not even worth the few seconds of effort it takes to sign - they've already got the new voice actor on contract, working on the game right now. I doubt they are going to fire him and start from the beginning just because of an internet petition.New Horizon said:
Nobody is asking for Romano to be fired, he would still be under contract to finish all the mocap, they just wouldn't be using his voice. Sending a strong message to Eidos is important, regardless of the outcome. I've worked as a VO artist on both sides of the mixing board. There is plenty of time at this stage for Mr. Russell to come in and loop his lines to the existing animations.M-D-Emm said:
The day I read "THI4F" I last all interest on this, and this was way back. I don't know anything about the new game, but seeing that attempt to make it all "hip and cool with the kidz" shit just threw me off completely.
I also don't see why they couldn't just go with a voice actor and a motion capture guy, even thou I've never cared about the second part, thye could've done it just fine.
I also don't see why they couldn't just go with a voice actor and a motion capture guy, even thou I've never cared about the second part, thye could've done it just fine.
These are the things I want in a thief game.
Blackjack
Water Arrows
Rope Arrows (A grappling hook with believable physics would be an acceptable replacement.)
The ability to throw things to distract guards.
Sprawly levels with lots of dark corners.
Guards talking about bear pits.
I can live without the old actor (Though he was good) as long as the new guy isn't a douche. I can live without the old lore (Though I love the Mechanist/Hammerite conflict) as long as Garrett isn't mutated into a heroic protagonist here to save The City from this new Tyrant and remains a snarky loner out for his own enrichment or to save his own skin.
Blackjack
Water Arrows
Rope Arrows (A grappling hook with believable physics would be an acceptable replacement.)
The ability to throw things to distract guards.
Sprawly levels with lots of dark corners.
Guards talking about bear pits.
I can live without the old actor (Though he was good) as long as the new guy isn't a douche. I can live without the old lore (Though I love the Mechanist/Hammerite conflict) as long as Garrett isn't mutated into a heroic protagonist here to save The City from this new Tyrant and remains a snarky loner out for his own enrichment or to save his own skin.