Things you like when you're not sure why

[Erttheking]

We can be odd creatures sometimes. We all know what we like and dislike, yet every once in awhile, there's something that breaks out expectations.

I'm really confused about my feelings for Berserk. When I think about it, it falls into quite a few pitfalls of things I dislike in fiction. An overabundance of people getting killed to show just how dark this world is, the main female character being reduced to someone that the main male character can get angry about, the main character kicks more ass than everyone else in the world because he just can and is angry all the time, and an overabundance of gore that really feels like it's there for it's own sake. Oh and an overabundance of sexual violence without really doing much with it (Rape horse...What the fuck?)

And yet...for some reason I don't mind all of this stuff when Berserk does it. Or at least not as much. It's still kind of annoying that Casca stopped having a personality after the Eclipse, if only because she's an interesting character and arc after arc of her being a blank slate is teeth pullingly frustrating. It still fits the story though, and I suppose my frustration is just how unfair the world is being to her (Seriously though, this arc for her has been going on way too long)

For some reason Berserk makes all of these things feel more...real. There's just something in this world just makes it all click, and I just can't put my finger on it...to be honest I haven't read too much of the manga. I've read a few volumes and everything else has been me looking stuff up. Maybe I'll understand more as I read on. There's just something about Berserk that works. (Still think we could've gotten by without Rape Horse though)

What about you? What do you like without really understanding why?

 

[Nickolai77]

I like cleaning as well strangely. Not necessarily cleaning in general but washing dishes and cleaning cars more specifically. I always immediately wash up any plates and utensils i've used immediately cooking with them, and get annoyed at people who leave their dirty dishes around.

Surely it's more logical to clean your pots, pans and plates straight after using them because it's much easier and quicker to clean off food stains before they dry? I don't verbally complain about it though, otherwise anyone who I live with will think I'm some sort of kitchen nazi.

 

[Euryalus]

BDSM Horse porn with the actors dressed as characters from Donkey Kong

On some level everything. I can give you a complete breakdown of all the things I like that a game does and why, but all that's doing is breaking a complex thing into simpler likes that play off each other.

I can tell you that I like how Metroid Prime melds it's storytelling and gameplay together by making the lore collectible "items," but can't tell you why.

I can scream til I'm blue in the face about how much I dislike the implications, voice acting, and character direction of Samus in Other M, but ultimately I can't explain it anymore than I can explain why I don't really like chocolate.

The experience just doesn't jive with my chemistry. Qualitatively I can't know why, and quantitatively I don't know why.

 

[Solsbury_Grille]

I love teaching physics.

I hate teaching chemistry.

I don't know why.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I'm really confused about my feelings for Berserk. When I think about it, it falls into quite a few pitfalls of things I dislike in fiction. An overabundance of people getting killed to show just how dark this world is, the main female character being reduced to someone that the main male character can get angry about, the main character kicks more ass than everyone else in the world because he just can and is angry all the time, and an overabundance of gore that really feels like it's there for it's own sake. Oh and an overabundance of sexual violence without really doing much with it (Rape horse...What the fuck?)

And yet...for some reason I don't mind all of this stuff when Berserk does it. Or at least not as much. It's still kind of annoying that Casca stopped having a personality after the Eclipse, if only because she's an interesting character and arc after arc of her being a blank slate is teeth pullingly frustrating. It still fits the story though, and I suppose my frustration is just how unfair the world is being to her (Seriously though, this arc for her has been going on way too long)

For some reason Berserk makes all of these things feel more...real. There's just something in this world just makes it all click, and I just can't put my finger on it...to be honest I haven't read too much of the manga. I've read a few volumes and everything else has been me looking stuff up. Maybe I'll understand more as I read on. There's just something about Berserk that works. (Still think we could've gotten by without Rape Horse though)

The thing with the demonic forces in Berserk is that the lower level demons aren't too bright and mainly act on their base instincts. This is why nearly all of them go into rape mode pretty quickly after possessing anykind of man or animal. Throughout the series Berserk seems to make it a point that every human will instintively choose corruption without the bounds of morality.

And rape horse, while kind of having become an internet meme at this point, was there to show the inescapable madness of the situation for a particular character. I don't want to spoil too much of it in case you haven't reached this part in the manga yet, but there is point to it being there.

I think the one thing I could've done without in Berserk, in terms of shock, was the scene where the Demon Dog mercenaries come across that nice family of farmers. The actual proceedings I feel could've been left in the dark as the scene that follows, where the Demon Dogs catch up to the Band of the Hawk, makes it clear it was extremely horrific.

 

[TWRule]

We can be odd creatures sometimes. We all know what we like and dislike, yet every once in awhile, there's something that breaks out expectations.

I'm really confused about my feelings for Berserk. When I think about it, it falls into quite a few pitfalls of things I dislike in fiction. An overabundance of people getting killed to show just how dark this world is, the main female character being reduced to someone that the main male character can get angry about, the main character kicks more ass than everyone else in the world because he just can and is angry all the time, and an overabundance of gore that really feels like it's there for it's own sake. Oh and an overabundance of sexual violence without really doing much with it (Rape horse...What the fuck?)

And yet...for some reason I don't mind all of this stuff when Berserk does it. Or at least not as much. It's still kind of annoying that Casca stopped having a personality after the Eclipse, if only because she's an interesting character and arc after arc of her being a blank slate is teeth pullingly frustrating. It still fits the story though, and I suppose my frustration is just how unfair the world is being to her (Seriously though, this arc for her has been going on way too long)

For some reason Berserk makes all of these things feel more...real. There's just something in this world just makes it all click, and I just can't put my finger on it...to be honest I haven't read too much of the manga. I've read a few volumes and everything else has been me looking stuff up. Maybe I'll understand more as I read on. There's just something about Berserk that works. (Still think we could've gotten by without Rape Horse though)

What about you? What do you like without really understanding why?

Berzerk isn't as shallow as it seems at first glance. Guts isn't just powerful because he has a lot to get angry about - in the Golden Age arc he lets on that he fights without regard to living or dying because he has no sense of meaning in his existence, and fighting is the only way he has even known to interact with his harsh world. His search for meaning fuels all his decisions in that arc, and presumably the entire series to some degree.

Guts' character arc after Golden Age has a lot to do with him coming to terms with the meaning of his relationship with Casca, coping with its apparent loss, and trying to recover it, which all works pretty well, I think - though I agree that it has dragged on a bit long and Casca's character could use a returning presence.

That so many characters get killed doesn't bother me when you consider that this is supposed to be a portrayal of medieval times, which from a modern perspective were incredibly bloody, brutal, and bleak. Add demons to the mix and people are going to die a lot. If fits to help create the atmosphere of the world - and they build such atmosphere in others ways too, like portraying the unethical/perverse choices of many characters and so on.

I agree that the series does have this obsession with rape that pushes absurdity - I've rolled my eyes a few times when I saw the setup coming from a mile away, and when they seemingly shoe-horned rape attempts in at every opportunity. In some ways, the inclusion of such scenes furthers the major themes: the whole idea behind the series is that humanity seems hopelessly perverse and trapped in a permanent state of circling the moral drain - there is a constant fear of irrevocable ruin inevitably falling upon us; rape and fear of it are just the most direct literal expressions of that idea. Still, it does become overused throughout the series, particularly the manga.

What I'm getting at is that you probably like Berzerk because there is a lot to like: it deals with profound themes, in many cases more gracefully than a lot of what's out there (though not always). Personally, I could have stood to have only ever watched the anime series and skipped the manga, as I feel like most of the substance was in the Golden Age arc; I'm not sure the author knows exactly where to go with it from here...

Anyway - if I like something, I usually make a concerted effort to understand why (though there are limits to this, like with other people - but then, people aren't 'things' anyway). I can probably explain why I like just about everything that I like, that I can think of off the top of my head anyway. I usually have a harder time explaining why I sometimes still partake of things that I don't really like - such as video games that have no substance other than to be challenging for the sake of being challenging, modern MMORPGs, or dumb youtube video game commentary shows.

 

[Eddie the head]

You know when you look into someones eyes and you almost can't tell where the iris ends and the pupil begins? I find that abnormally attractive. I don't know.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

I don't think this will count but I really enjoyed reading The Hobbit, I had to force myself to get through the Lord of the Rings. Two Towers was such a horrible slog that it took me three tries over several years to actually, FINALLY get through it. Return of the King was alright but after Two Towers I just wanted to be done with the books. I didn't even care to watch the movies, the books were such a horrible slog. Once The Hobbit is FINALLY out, I'll probably marathon it but I just don't care for Lord of the Rings...I do like other medieval fantasy though. Dragon Age: Origins was awesome, I love The Elder Scrolls games, and most ironically of all, I REALLY want to get my hands on Shadows of Mordor.

I'm also going to join the bandwagon of people who like cleaning up, and doing house-holdy chores things. I never really cared to do that kind of thing growing up but something about being an adult has made me...not really enjoy that kind of thing but I find it somewhat calming and comforting.

 

[Fox12]

We can be odd creatures sometimes. We all know what we like and dislike, yet every once in awhile, there's something that breaks out expectations.

I'm really confused about my feelings for Berserk. When I think about it, it falls into quite a few pitfalls of things I dislike in fiction. An overabundance of people getting killed to show just how dark this world is, the main female character being reduced to someone that the main male character can get angry about, the main character kicks more ass than everyone else in the world because he just can and is angry all the time, and an overabundance of gore that really feels like it's there for it's own sake. Oh and an overabundance of sexual violence without really doing much with it (Rape horse...What the fuck?)

And yet...for some reason I don't mind all of this stuff when Berserk does it. Or at least not as much. It's still kind of annoying that Casca stopped having a personality after the Eclipse, if only because she's an interesting character and arc after arc of her being a blank slate is teeth pullingly frustrating. It still fits the story though, and I suppose my frustration is just how unfair the world is being to her (Seriously though, this arc for her has been going on way too long)

For some reason Berserk makes all of these things feel more...real. There's just something in this world just makes it all click, and I just can't put my finger on it...to be honest I haven't read too much of the manga. I've read a few volumes and everything else has been me looking stuff up. Maybe I'll understand more as I read on. There's just something about Berserk that works. (Still think we could've gotten by without Rape Horse though)

What about you? What do you like without really understanding why?

Berserk is a masterpiece, you have good taste my friend. I think berserk pulls off the grim atmosphere because it feels more earned. Guts is shown slowly building his strength through the series, but even at his strongest, he's pretty weak compared to his enemies. His scars are permanent, and his victories are won through brains, not brawn. Its a brilliant deconstruction of the male fantasy hero. we dont see aragorn deal with PTSD like a real soldier would because hes supposed to be heroic and brave. But gutts is human, and he does struggle with his mental trauma. the characters in berserk are very fragile and human. The thing I like about the series is that it's not really pessimistic. It's dark in the way that watchmen is dark. It shows you the worst humanity has to offer, but it also shows you the best, just in a more subtle way. The optimism of schierke, for instance, is not presented as youthful naïveté. Rather its shown as a legitimate world view that counters the pessimism of guts. Furthermore, the real beauty of the story is its theme of healing. People complain that guts isn't dark enough any more, but they miss the point. The whole point of the series is that guts suffers horribly, but then begins to heal. On top of that, the series is philosophical without being preachy. I could talk for hours about the influences of Greek tragedy, Oedipus Rex, sophocles, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, Crowley, Bosch, Geiger, the book of revelations, and about a hundred other literary, philosophical, historic, and even scientific influences, but I won't. The work is stagering. Suffice it to say, Berserk is one of the most brilliant and well researched works of drama in the modern age, and perhaps the best example of why comics are art. I think this level of painstaking dedication comes through, even to people who don't necessarily understand the academic ideas behind it.

But on topic. I would probably have to say ocarina of time. It's one of my favorite games, but I don't know why. I love the gameplay, story, and design, but somehow the game is more than the sum of its parts. The other Zelda games mimic it, but none even come close. It's just lightning In bottle.

 

[Dizchu]

I also really like people. And that might seem weird to say this, but I don't understand why. Because I have severe PTSD and social anxiety issues, but I love being around people, I love making friends, and I love taking care of people. I love people. I love making people happy, I love making them smile. And it's strange, I don't like being around huge groups of people, I'm always wanting to make more friends, and meet new people, and be around people, even though I don't want to be around people, or have to deal with them. It's a very conflicting, strange way to live life.

This is exactly how I feel (minus the PTSD part). Sometimes I feel like an extrovert trapped in an introvert's body (if that makes any sense?) I'm not especially good with people and I need my "alone time", but when I was living on my own for a few weeks over summer and Christmas it felt really bad. Not having regular contact with people or living in close proximity to people made me very paranoid. On the other hand, a lack of "alone time" makes me extremely stressed. Both extremes have lead to me having mental breakdowns in the past.

ANYWAY TO LIGHTEN THE MOOD A LITTLE.

I don't know why I enjoy singing. I'm not a very outwardly expressive person and I am not the biggest fan of my singing voice but... singing's the best, man. There's nothing like just rocking those pipes every once in a while.

Here's another oddity. If there were a hypothetical scenario where a biologically male person and a biologically female person looked exactly the same, I'd find the biological male more attractive. I am almost exclusively attracted to women so I have no idea why this is. Something to do with my fascination with transgenderism and androgyny I suppose.

 

[Random Argument Man]

I love cooking competition shows like Masterchef even though it looks ridiculously fake? (The US version)?I can't help myself?

The food looks good though..

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Demon's/Dark Souls: Its not the difficulty scale, though it is reminiscent of the ideals of Nintendo-hard. Its not the aesthetic, I'm not impressed with the look of the game overall and there are some things that bother me about the character models (like how in Dark Souls running on an incline looks like the character is breaking his/her ankles with every step)... I don't know why I like the games, I just do.
Quest for Glory series: There's a lot I love about this series but I'm hard pressed to actually describe what makes me continue to play these games years after their respective releases. I find there's a magic in this series that hasn't been captured yet by anything else and I'll keep saying until my dying breath (or it actually happens) this is a series that would do great updated as an open-world MMO as long as the dev's realize whatever it is that permeates this series.

 

[TWRule]

But on topic. I would probably have to say ocarina of time. It's one of my favorite games, but I don't know why. I love the gameplay, story, and design, but somehow the game is more than the sum of its parts. The other Zelda games mimic it, but none even come close. It's just lightning In bottle.

All that about the philosophical/intellectual undertones of Berzerk (which I mostly agree with, by the way), but no mention of Majora's Mask?

Ocarina of Time is an excellent modern interpretation of the Joseph Campbell's "Hero's Journey" (and a coming of age story), and it does a great job of putting the player in that role (at the service of the divine in a world permeated with the gods' influence), but - taken on its own - it doesn't approach the philosophical depth of Majora's Mask. Existentialist thought (broadly construed) permeates the latter work, and its message is much more potent, partially because it takes on a tone directed at the universally human. This isn't the place to give an entire analysis of its themes and philosophical message, but I wonder if you simply overlooked it or if there's some reason you don't regard it highly in such respects?

 

[lacktheknack]

Microsoft Excel.

I know this sounds incredibly weird, but there is something I find very enjoyable about planning a structure for information to take into account which formulae I need to compute on that data and what possible future formulae I might need to apply to it, and then filling all those empty boxes with numbers and watching the meaningful (and correctly computed!) results come spilling out automatically.

I know that feeling. Ever spent a day designing the most efficient SQL-based database in the history of the world just because you can? I have. I look back with regrets, but I couldn't stop once I started.

Also, I have no idea why I enjoy XCOM: Enemy Unknown as much as I do. I didn't like the originals much, and in a lot of ways, the new one is worse... but it's just so much better.

 

[Fox12]

But on topic. I would probably have to say ocarina of time. It's one of my favorite games, but I don't know why. I love the gameplay, story, and design, but somehow the game is more than the sum of its parts. The other Zelda games mimic it, but none even come close. It's just lightning In bottle.

All that about the philosophical/intellectual undertones of Berzerk (which I mostly agree with, by the way), but no mention of Majora's Mask?

Ocarina of Time is an excellent modern interpretation of the Joseph Campbell's "Hero's Journey" (and a coming of age story), and it does a great job of putting the player in that role (at the service of the divine in a world permeated with the gods' influence), but - taken on its own - it doesn't approach the philosophical depth of Majora's Mask. Existentialist thought (broadly construed) permeates the latter work, and its message is much more potent, partially because it takes on a tone directed at the universally human. This isn't the place to give an entire analysis of its themes and philosophical message, but I wonder if you simply overlooked it or if there's some reason you don't regard it highly in such respects?

Actually, the reason I didn't mention it is because I KNOW why I love Majoras Mask, haha.

I tend to have a pretty good idea why I love something, or don't love something. Majoras Mask is tightly plotted, and every inch of its relatively small world is permeating with life. It's subtle and smart, and its exploration of death is quite interesting. But you sound like you probably know about a lot of this already, so I won't bore you with the details. I actually like Majoras Mask a lot more then Ocarina of Time. I like that it didn't try to follow Ocarinas coat tails, and instead attempted to be its own game. They realized they could never surpass the epic scale of OoT, and instead opted to tell a smaller, more personal story with a different feel to it. In an age where everything has to be bigger and more epic, Nintendo had the sense to do the opposite, and make something with a more thematic narrow focus. I wish companies like Bioware would take heed of this lesson. This is how you make a proper sequel.

But OoT is harder to peg for me. I understand that it's the heroes journey, but I've seen that done a hundred times, even by other Zelda games, and most of them can't reach that level of quality. I can say it's higher quality, but I'm not sure why. As I said before, it's so much more than the sum of its parts. It just felt more personal to me.

 

[TWRule]

Actually, the reason I didn't mention it is because I KNOW why I love Majoras Mask, haha.

I tend to have a pretty good idea why I love something, or don't love something. Majoras Mask is tightly plotted, and every inch of its relatively small world is permeating with life. It's subtle and smart, and its exploration of death is quite interesting. But you sound like you probably know about a lot of this already, so I won't bore you with the details. I actually like Majoras Mask a lot more then Ocarina of Time. I like that it didn't try to follow Ocarinas coat tails, and instead attempted to be its own game. They realized they could never surpass the epic scale of OoT, and instead opted to tell a smaller, more personal story with a different feel to it. In an age where everything has to be bigger and more epic, Nintendo had the sense to do the opposite, and make something with a more thematic narrow focus. I wish companies like Bioware would take heed of this lesson. This is how you make a proper sequel.

But OoT is harder to peg for me. I understand that it's the heroes journey, but I've seen that done a hundred times, even by other Zelda games, and most of them can't reach that level of quality. I can say it's higher quality, but I'm not sure why. As I said before, it's so much more than the sum of its parts. It just felt more personal to me.

I see.

The funny thing is that even though they are very different from one another, Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask compliment and enrich each other in various ways, I'd say - and the contrast you were getting at has a good bit to do with it I think.

Anyway - I understand what you mean; there's certainly more to Ocarina than merely the bare-bones of the Hero's Journey, and I remember it held personal value for me, esp. when I was a bit younger.

For instance, a powerful moment early in the game that I still remember clearly came with the Deku Tree's death, just after he had charged Link with the task of journeying to Hyrule Castle and finding Zelda. This moment was potent not because the player had any reason to feel especially attached to the Deku Tree, but because it palpably situated Link as transcending and leaving behind everything he had known. After the tree dies, you wander out into the Kokiri Village again and are confronted by the other Kokiri who are radically disturbed by the pace at which their lives are being transformed - their center of life up to this point is gone, and they are confused and panicked that Link himself is now leaving. It's established early that Link never seemed to belong in the Village, not having a fairy and such, but at this point even the player can feel that Link doesn't belong, partially because he now has a larger purpose motivating him - he seems in a way 'too large' for the village all of a sudden - and he must take his first steps into a larger world (the vastness of which has a literal analogue in the next moment when the player steps out into the wide open Hyrule field). And in between you get the scene implying how the friendship between Saria and Link already transcended the limited context of life in the village.

There are moments like that throughout the game (becoming Adult Link for the first time and the subsequent intensity of the journey to and through the Forest Temple to save Saria is another similar one that comes to mind), which still fit the Hero's Journey paradigm ('being in the world but not of the world', coming of age, etc.) but makes the player experience it directly and personally in a way that I haven't really seen done much elsewhere in interactive media.

Link (and by extension, the player) also has more interpersonal relationships wherein Link (and thus the player) are directly acknowledged in Ocarina than in any other Zelda game. Saria, Zelda/Shiek, Malon, to a lesser extent most of the other Sages, Navi, Kaepora Gaebora (the owl sage) and even potentially Mido are examples. Even though there are intense moments that seem to find Link (and the player) with a burden on their shoulders, there nearly always seems to be someone there in the background to watch over and support you - which aids the feeling that you are being favored by the divine (and more generally by the world you're in) and can feel comforted by the direct consideration you're being given from many sources. Other Zelda games (with the exception of MM), in contrast usually only have their worlds populated by completely inept, oblivious NPCs which are indifferent to you or your endeavors, with at most 1 or 2 characters that appear to address Link (and you) directly as a unique presence. That makes for a lonelier experience and one that is easier to become divested from.

Those are some of the reasons I've enjoyed Ocarina of Time, anyway - your personal relationship with the game may vary.

 

[Fox12]

snip

I think this largely holds true. The game feels, in a way, warmer a well. The early part captures the wonder of childhoos, with a personal favorite scene being Malon singing near the castle. Of course, by the time she grows up her father, and her security, is gone, and she has to take greater responsibility for the farm, not just for her own sake, but for the animals as well. Link is also forced to grow up, interestingly after seeing the castle fall to ganondorf, and seeing several soldiers die (if you go looking for them, anyway). The game just feels weightier, with real consequences and stakes. And since I cared for the characters more than most Zelda games (except MM) I cared about what happened. The contrast between adulthood and childhood was also well done. The emotional core, more than anything, I think, made this game for me.

I would like to see the series branch out again, though. Explore new themes, or new characters. Experiment with the formula while retaining the elements that made the series great. Majoras Mask still stands out as the most original game in the series by far.

 

[Pete Oddly]

A thing I like but I'm not certain why? Clowns.

Not birthday clowns, or skilled circus clowns, or funny slapstick clowns; I'm fairly indifferent to all of those. What I'm talking about are creepy clowns. For example, this glorious bastard from American Horror Story:

I guess I must like them because I'm a horror nut, but for some reason I can't pinpoint, creepy, monstrous clowns are my favourite type of horror villain. It's been that way since I first watched It at five years old.

 

[TWRule]

-snip-

Agreed.

Hopefully the upcoming Zelda for Wii U offers something worthwhile, though I'm worried the hardware is going to be made to get in the way of the experience in one way or another, and that Nintendo is done taking many artistic strides in general, but we'll see...

 

[JagermanXcell]

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (the manga series).

The only manga besides Berserk that i've ever read and loved.
But as to why.. I don't really know. Apart of me tricks myself into saying that this series has to be some sort of genius satire but that goes completely out the window when you realize that this series came out 20+ years ago. It's even further pushed when you realize that there are many of times when the writing is just really really GOOOOOOOOOD for something so shonen (Diamond is Unbreakable [unduwanged] and Steel Ball Run being some prime examples of some legitimately well written plot and characters).
-Is it the... um... unique, over the top homoeroticism?
-Is it the amplification of the shonen genre done so high that it completely negates it's own insanity at times?
-Is it the variety in tales and just the mass amount creativity in it's writing and action?
-Is it it's horror~esque brutality?
Because I have come across people turned off by Jojo... and they never give me a good reason as to why they think it's inherently "bad" in their opinions, just "Oh I don't like it". The series certainly has it's low points, but they're so few and far between when you just stop and realize that the overall package, as bizarre as it is,
is incredibly FUN!