Things You Might (Incorrectly) Believe About Guns

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wkrepelin

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maturin said:
wkrepelin said:
Sorry to do this but . . . maturin has literally no idea what they're talking about.

*snip*

Ba-zing-gah!
Are you sure you have a BS? I don't think anyone trying to tout their degree with a straight face would write like you.
You must not know many people with degrees (academics are backstabbing, elitist, assholes). . . you work your ass off for years to lord stuff over happier people who made better decisions with their lives . . . I thought that was common knowledge.

Oh and Dr Gregory Anderson PhD. who was one of the early proponents of the "quintessence" theory of universal expansion has a higher degree than me, is smarter than me, loves Big Bang Theory on ABC and says Bah-zing-gah because he likes Sheldon. I know this because I know him personally. You're experience is too limited to judge academics accurately.

You are right about your implication (indirect) that I am something of a tool . . . gotta play to my talents.

Anyway good chatting with you. - Just so you remember this was about your misrepresentation of physics not your point. I agree that even if it was the bullet that knocked the person down the reason they don't get up is the damage caused by the impact not the change in momentum but it could still knock them down and you shouldn't represent yourself as having a knowledge of physics when you don't even sound like you took it in high school. Just say that you're not a specialist but it makes sense to you that etc. etc. That way you get to have your opinion heard but in the context it deserves not in the context of being an authority on the subject.
 

rutger5000

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Not all of your arguments sound that convincing to me. Shooting a bullet in the air seems like a perfect warning shot to me. The bullet will have lost an immense amount of speed due to air resistance. It should be a lot slower when it reaches the ground. Maybe even slow enough not to pose a threat.
Also I get why aiming for the leg is the same as aiming for his guts. But what about his feet. I think you can safely immobilize a person like that.
 

JezebelinHell

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dastardly said:
2. ...and the attacker has a knife, they are not a threat.

Myth. We think it's true because you have to be close to stab someone, but not to shoot them--distance is the advantage, right?

A little test called the Tueller Drill has repeatedly proven that an attacker with a knife can close a distance of 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. That means you must be able to draw, aim, fire, and hit your target in a way that stops his motion in under 1.5 seconds, or you're getting stabbed. Even trained police officers have trouble doing that, which is why they are authorized to use firearms against knives anywhere under 30 feet, usually.
Someone pulled a gun on my cousin and my cousin went to prison because he killed him with a knife. Just because you are the better armed person doesn't mean that you will win. You better be ready to use it if you are going to pull it. And yea if it had been reversed I would have thought that my cousin got what he deserved. He has been scum his whole life and isn't going to change... Oh he was out of prison for a while, found God even... but he is back in prison again. Surprise! I avoid that part of my dad's family like the plague.
Berethond said:
Very true, and very well said.
But I was always taught that if they ask for your money, you just give it to them.
Would I be better off just resisting in that situation?
(Sorry if this is a repeat but I haven't read all the replies to see if this response has been made.) I have always heard that you throw what they want one way and run the other. But I am not willing to try it out and to see if it works. Just something to keep in mind if you have no other option.
OT
Thanks for the post! *applause*
My dad is a gun collector so my brother and I both learned gun safety very young. They are not toys, they were not hidden from us and made to seem like something untouchable like most kids are taught. At our house it was always if you want to go shoot ask and we will go. Eliminate the curiosity about them, make it an educational experience. That made us safer not only in our house but in any house that may have had a gun in it.
Now if only more criminals were taught that they will probably be shot when they commit crimes...
 

maturin

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wkrepelin said:
Just so you remember this was about your misrepresentation of physics not your point.
I never argued in terms of physics until you brought them up. I simply referred to the generalities of practical experience and wasn't interested in discussing the underlying mechanics.

I only recall citing one solitary statistic, described in markedly plebeian terms.
And your post was certainly worded as if you were contradicting the entire point, not the nuts and bolts justifying it. Even so, we were splitting some very insignificant hairs, running quite counter to the spirit of the topic. When the OP talks about the danger of warning shots ricocheting off the ground, it is incredibly likely that the round will simply penetrate the dirt harmlessly, but that doesn't call for a ballistics seminar. And your language and tone, actual intent aside, was that of an internet flamewar argument.

The absolute only thing you had to say was "Actually, a ten pound weight dropped from two feet high could knock a person over under the proper conditions." Or some such. I'll concede that if I wasn't expecting it and didn't have the proper stance and reaction, I could fall down before such a force. But other than that I don't see how I was too terribly wrong in my description of the phenomenon and I don't see any part of your post that educated me, especially the rather useless inclusion of the inverted pendulum.
 

crudus

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Thank you. Very good thread. Very rational. Clears up some good misconceptions.

Vryyk said:
I like this thread. I'm sick of hearing "shoot to wound" and all that rubbish about tailoring response to meet the threat (in under 10 seconds no less). You'll notice that it's always the people who have never been in a situation where they may not be going home who scream "ban guns!" the loudest. Very well said sir.
My favorite thing is people don't really think about the "shoot to wound" thing. For example, how do you shoot to wound? There are few places where someone will survive getting shot every time. Those are pretty small places that nobody can hit every time in a calm environment. Also if you do shoot to wound, won't that just piss off the person attacking you?
 

Canid117

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Onyx Oblivion said:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/10/new_rules_on_stun_guns_will_lo.html

Jersey law only recently allowed the use of stun guns in more situations than the original, and ludicrous, situations. And many officers still haven't been trained, and they aren't widely available to the force yet, either.
Wow... thats kind of odd. In my hometown every single squad car had a taser gun in its trunk. This was a fairly large city too.
 

Sparcrypt

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Oct 17, 2007
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yes... the biggest one people have issues with I find is understanding that knives are just as, if not more, dangerous then guns.

A friend of mine in the police had a partner of his cut badly in the face and very nearly died after deciding to use his OC spray on a rushing attacker with a knife instead of his gun. The guy went down but cut him up pretty badly in the process.

Simple test if you think knives are easy to handle - give someone with zero training a marker pen and then put on some white clothes. Have the person with the pen stand 10 metres away and then charge you like a madman, using the marker as a knife (slashing only - if they do any 'stabbing' they can seriously hurt you so be careful). When done, have a look at your white cloths and see where the marker is.. then imagine how crippling a deep cut on those areas would leave you.

Now have that person attack in a different manner - close in slowly, back you to a corner and slash continuously at the edge of your reach. You'll now be covered in the marker all over your hands - and keep in mind that after ONE of those slashes the pain would likely cause your to instantly draw your hands to your body for protection, completely opening you up for serious damage.

Even if you are trained to take a knife off someone, even the SLIGHTEST mistake is going to get you cut, maybe badly.

Basically, if you have a gun and they attack with a knife, shoot them.
 

EOD Tech

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Dec 30, 2010
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OP: unexpectedly great post. Way to dispel many gun myths.

Unfortunately a lot of toolbags will ignore you, but hey, you've done what you can.
 

archvile93

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rutger5000 said:
Not all of your arguments sound that convincing to me. Shooting a bullet in the air seems like a perfect warning shot to me. The bullet will have lost an immense amount of speed due to air resistance. It should be a lot slower when it reaches the ground. Maybe even slow enough not to pose a threat.
Also I get why aiming for the leg is the same as aiming for his guts. But what about his feet. I think you can safely immobilize a person like that.
Well there's also the issue that it may very well not discourage your attacker. If he's that close to be a serious threat he may very well just rush you or, if he has a gun, start shooting, and you just wasted valuable time putting a shot in the air. Also, shooting a foot? Good luck hitting a fast moving target that small in a very short timeframe; you probably won't even have time to line up the sights. You're really going to need it.
 

AK47Marine

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Nice to see other firearms owners who know what their talking about.

This thread certainly lowered my blood pressure =]
 

Manicotti

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rutger5000 said:
Not all of your arguments sound that convincing to me. Shooting a bullet in the air seems like a perfect warning shot to me. The bullet will have lost an immense amount of speed due to air resistance. It should be a lot slower when it reaches the ground. Maybe even slow enough not to pose a threat.
Actually, a bullet coming from the sky will have a significant amount of its force regained (not retained, mind) due to external forces like wind and such. And on the way down, it'll come damn close to terminal velocity by the time it gets within striking range of people back on the ground. The odds of it hitting a person are pretty slim, but that's a really stupid way to waste a bullet and possibly hurt someone completely unrelated.
 

Jaime_Wolf

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dastardly said:
Since a lot of firearms threads come up, and we keep having to cover the same myths over and over, often with increased hatred and anger each time, I thought it'd be nice to quickly cover a few of the key myths about guns.

Bear in mind, none of these are unreasonable beliefs--they wouldn't have become myths if they were crazy. They are, however, incorrect. Here they are in no particular order:

ON SHOOTING:
If you have a gun...

1. ...you should shoot only once, or perhaps twice.

Myth. While we tend to call "excessive force" on people who fire repeatedly, they're doing exactly what they should. This isn't the movies, and we're not all crack shots. It's extremely easy to miss with a handgun. Most shots under duress fired miss completely, even with cops and military personnel.

What's more, a single bullet can eventually kill someone (though most people survive single gunshot wounds), but it rarely stops them instantly. Some assailants may take four or five slugs and still have to be physically wrestled to the ground by police. That's four or five hits, not just shots fired. Your goal isn't to hurt them. It's to stop them. So you should continue firing until they stop.

2. ...you should fire a warning shot first.

Myth. "Warning shots" exist in Hollywood, not the real world. Every bullet goes somewhere. As the gun's user, you are responsible for controlling where that bullet goes. Firing into the air can (and does) kill innocents up to a mile away from the scene. Firing at the ground can cause an unsafe ricochet that could even harm you. What's more, you've wasted a bullet and precious seconds.

If you're firing, you must have a target. And you send all of your bullets toward that target and only that target. Anything else is highly irresponsible and dangerous, despite what movies claim.

3. ...you should try to shoot their legs, or something else to injure (but not kill) them.

Myth. More Hollywood magic. First of all, do you know how dangerous a shot in the leg really is? Probably not, because folks in movies treat it like the most survivable wound. Two words: femoral artery. You can bleed out in seconds from just a knick. So, no, it's not "safer." There is no such thing as "shooting to wound." Every shot that hits can kill a person, so every shot should be treated as lethal.

But aside from that, there's a reason police are trained to shoot for "center mass." It is not because that's where the vital organs are, or because it's more lethal (though both of those are true). It is because it presents the largest target, more mass to absorb the energy of the bullet, and thus less chance of the bullet bypassing or going through the target to hit something else. A leg is a tiny, fast target, and it is incredibly difficult to hit even for a trained shooter--almost as hard to hit as the head.

It's safer for everyone to shoot center mass. Also, because there's more energy transferred into the body, that force goes toward stopping the target, which is our goal anyhow. If you're shooting, you aim for center mass.

4. ...don't use hollowpoints. They're designed to do more damage!

Myth. Hollow-pointed bullets are designed to fragment inside the target. This can cause a different sort of damage, sometimes more than a "normal" round. But that's not their purpose. The purpose of the fragmentation is to make sure the bullet doesn't pass through the target.

This would do two things: first, it would pose a risk to anyone or anything behind the target, and second, it means a lot of that round's 'stopping power' was wasted--the energy wasn't transferred into the target. A normal round could pass through a running attacker with no noticeable change in their momentum.

Fact is, hollowpoints are safer. They are also more effective at stopping the target, and remember, that's our goal. We should be prepared for the fact that they can be seriously injured or kill, but our ultimate goal is to stop their advance and keep them from harming us. Period.

ON THE "THREAT" OF AN ATTACKER
If you have a gun...


1. ...and you don't see a weapon in your attacker's hand, they are not a threat.

Myth. Not seeing a weapon doesn't mean they don't have one. They are not required to announce a weapon or present it to you. Odds are, if they have a gun, they could draw it and shoot before you have time to draw in reaction. So, you must draw before they do. But this is mostly for cops.

See, for a civilian, if this person is an attacker, it means they're attacking. They're probably not far away. And up that close, how can you know what's hidden where? Your field of vision is limited.

2. ...and the attacker has a knife, they are not a threat.

Myth. We think it's true because you have to be close to stab someone, but not to shoot them--distance is the advantage, right?

A little test called the Tueller Drill has repeatedly proven that an attacker with a knife can close a distance of 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. That means you must be able to draw, aim, fire, and hit your target in a way that stops his motion in under 1.5 seconds, or you're getting stabbed. Even trained police officers have trouble doing that, which is why they are authorized to use firearms against knives anywhere under 30 feet, usually.

3. ...your first responsibility is to announce the gun and warn the attacker.

Myth. We think is is true because cops do it. But that's because in those situations, the officer starts out a good distance away from the attacker. Ideally, outside lethal range of an attack. Now, if the attacker has a gun pointed at the cop, or has a gun with demonstrated intent to use it, even that gets a pass.

If you're being attacked, the attacker is close. Remember, 1.5 seconds. That's not enough time to draw an pronounce your warning. And God help you if you announce the gun before drawing, because you just gave them the biggest reason in the world to rush you even faster.

4. ...you have to assume the attacker just wants your money, not to kill you.

Myth. Why should you have to assume that? This attacker is not "innocent until proven guilty." By attacking you, he has proven himself guilty. He views you as an obstacle between him and something. You don't know what that 'something' is, but you do know he has demonstrated the intent to harm you to get to it. It might be money. It might be rape. It might be murder. You're not his shrink or his lawyer. No one has the right to harm you to take something that is rightfully yours.

What's more, if someone has attacked you, they've demonstrated that they view your basic human rights as secondary to their wants. Not so far a stretch to think that killing you won't weigh too heavily on their conscience.

We tend to think this is true because of laws surrounding home invasion. If someone breaks in, grabs your TV, and heads for the door, you can't shoot them to keep your TV. They have demonstrated they intend to leave, so legally you can't shoot them. If they advance on you, however, this is changed instantly. (The only legal sticky spot is if you move to block their exit. This makes you the "aggressor" in some systems.)

5. ...you should try to get away first.

Myth. If you're being attacked, you're probably not in an area you control. Probably not your car, maybe not even your house. If you run, where will you run to? Do you know? Even if you happen to have somewhere nearby in mind, the attacker will likely pursue you--you've seen him, and he hasn't gotten whatever he wanted yet. Two good reasons to give chase. Are you sure you're faster than him? Are you sure you won't trip, and end up in a highly disadvantageous position?

What's more, if you're being attacked, these things don't usually start from a distance. It's up close. Turn your back, and you're done. The attacker wouldn't be attacking if they didn't have an advantage of some kind. This is why "Stand Your Ground" laws are gaining steam, and even in places that don't have them, it's hard to prosecute someone in that situation who truly felt they could not escape.


________________________

I hope that at least some of you have found this in some way enlightening. People that believe these myths about firearms actually cause them to be more dangerous, because those beliefs promote irresponsible use of firearms. They also lead people to form uninformed judgments about people--cops and civilians alike--who properly use firearms in those few situations where it was necessary.
I came into this thread expecting to disagree violently.

Most pleasant surprise today.

ITT: Actual sense.
 

wkrepelin

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maturin said:
well I didn't mean to but you're probably right. Sorry about that to you and the OP. Cheers.

EDIT: Yeah, I just looked over my posts and was being a complete ass. I'm really sorry, I don't know what my problem was.
 

Berethond

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rutger5000 said:
Not all of your arguments sound that convincing to me. Shooting a bullet in the air seems like a perfect warning shot to me. The bullet will have lost an immense amount of speed due to air resistance. It should be a lot slower when it reaches the ground. Maybe even slow enough not to pose a threat.
Also I get why aiming for the leg is the same as aiming for his guts. But what about his feet. I think you can safely immobilize a person like that.
Bullets are designed to be aerodynamic. While they do slow down significantly, they can still be lethal. Especially if you live in an area with high population density.

This is quite well documented, just do a few google searches.
 

captaincabbage

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Gilhelmi said:
captaincabbage said:
WHAT!?!?? What do you mean assault rifles don't have 300 bullets in a magazine!??
I, actually, have seen those. Better yet they are LEGAL IN KANSAS, HURRAY. They are very expensive to load. $0.75x300=$225

Not a cheap day at the range.
Lol oh you crazy Americans and your guns.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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I got a question, how easy is it for a handgun or rifle to go off just by dropping it? does it depend on the type of gun?

also technically was the difference between a shot gun and a rifle?
 

maturin

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Vault101 said:
I got a question, how easy is it for a handgun or rifle to go off just by dropping it? does it depend on the type of gun?
Nearly impossible with a modern gun, unless something somehow hit the trigger through the trigger guard. The shock and vibration of falling can set off weapons with older firing systems.
also technically was the difference between a shot gun and a rifle?
A shotgun has a wide barrel and is designed to fire a bunch of pellets or a large, not very aerodynamic single slug. By contrast a normal bullet is thinner than your little finger and moves at extremely high speeds.
 

maturin

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calebcom84 said:
I come from alaska, break into any house around while someone's home and you've got a 50/50 chance of getting your brains blown out.

Hence why robbery is lower in the US than the UK. :)
Great, we have less robberies. (citation needed)

Murder rate in the US is 3.9 times higher than the UK. I think I'd rather be robbed than killed, wouldn't you?

Or maybe you'd like to take back the truly asinine suggestion that gun laws are the most important factors (or even anywhere close) determining crime rates?
 

ranasan

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I once thought that it took a lot of effort to pull a trigger, until I accidentally discharged a gun... Fortunatley I didn't panic, drop it or start pointing it at people I just quickly handed the thing to my dad who was standing beside me and kept it pointed down range. Also they are loud!