This is the problem with the dumbed down RPG (DA2 ME2)

[bombadilillo]

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/117/1170595p1.html

Beyond the article sounding like it was written by a 4 year old there are some very disturbing points.

First the author basicly bashes rpg's, even using the term "nerdgasm" and the says how awesome this new game Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning looks because its like an RPG but not too nerdy. To me it looks like a hack and slash where you can level.

Some points.

He talks about how awesome it is that you don't have to pick a class and can level whatever you want. Apparently this has never been done before and he called out Elder Scrolls by name earlier.

He talks about how he hates stats and menus and comparing which item is better in other rpgs, but looting sounds AWESOME and you get to sell the loot and you can upgrade your weapons in all sorrts of crazy ways with loot! Never mind that it sounds like they replaced different swords with stats with different blades and hilts with stats.

He ends with this gem

Some people don't like sports games, but I traditionally don't like medieval times with dragons and crap. Reckoning looks like it could be the exception to the rule. The combat is fluid, customizing my character to the specific specs I want is exciting, and hell yes I want to make a sward with a crazy core and snazzy binding.

Seriously? Combat aside it sounds like what he wants is any number of RPG's. Character builing, crafting and looting are what excites him most about the game.

This isnt to say that this game is bad, or won't be good, but it is very frustrating to watch this kind of reaction to the RPG gerne as a whole. Every trait he praises as looking promising is a already in a number of rpg games (exept argueably combat mechanics) Unless the game has a redistribute xp system then this guy will be in for a rude awakening we he can't do his awesome steath kills cause he didnt build a theif.

Moreover this represents the trend of dumbing down the rpg system in recent games. Not the game itself mind you, but the reaction this author has. He is basicly saying, "Dragons are stupid and for nerds, but this game let you do that stuff while being a God of War clone!" You might argue that thats a good thing and sounds like great fun. More power to you. However, look at the title. Fantasy RPGs Get a Reckoning. Really? The idea that this is a huge blow to the nerds its bittersweet. Its ironic because the general audiances like these features but want them simplified to the point that they are pointless. He hates picking a class, but loves building the character he wants! What is wrong with this picture. Also its bitter because good games with deep meaningful rpg elements are getting dumbed down because this guy represents the audiance they are trying to connect with. That sucks.

 

[Canid117]

Stupid people aren't the fault of games that have smooth combat.

 

[Atrocious Joystick]

What exactly is contradictory about not wanting to pick a specific class but still have be able to define the character you are playing? I just played Fallout 3 and that was exactly how that level system works. Given, there are templates that chose the first skills for you if you want but my point still stands. Of course this usually just leads to there being one uber-class than a plethora of choice for the player.

But still, if the system balanced well enough you have a lot more choice if you chose what your character focuses on rather than having the game say "No! Are you silly? A mage has extra pottery not extra gardening!".

On another note, I don't get the idea that people think streamlining (or as some put it, dumbing down)games is a new thing or for that matter restricted to the the gaming industry. Simplicity is key, it always has been and always will be. There's a reason we have buttons to light our lamps and remote controls to start our TVs. You can make the worlds greatest car, safe as hell and more comfortable than your home but nobody will buy the thing if you have to light the ignition manually. Same goes for games, you can have a awesome gameplay, stunning scenery and a gripping story and none of it will matter if 80% of the pople who buy it can't get into it because you have to read a 200 page instruction book to play it.

Of course, there will always be failures when introducing anything new. You want to be able to do complex things in a simple manner. You start the ignition by turning a key, you don't want a car that doesn't let you control the speed. But the idea that streamlining is an evil thing is crazy. In fact it is the only thing that can keep the genre alive. I enjoyed Mass effect 2 more than I enjoyed Baldur's Gate 2. Because ME 2 was more immersive. And as fun as BG 2 was at the time I wouldn't play it if released today. Because standards have risen.

 

[Saviordd1]

I gave up paying attention to IGN, you should to

 

[DEAD34345]

Some random person on IGN doesn't usually like RPGs, but thinks "Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning" is great... good for him I guess?

I don't understand the relevance of your title at all, what exactly is the problem with "the dumbed-down"? Is the problem that this guy likes it? Is the problem that you don't agree with this person who likes it? Where does Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2 fit into this, exactly?

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here, other than to mildly insult someone who voiced their opinion on IGN. I don't think this guy represents any "trend of dumbing down the rpg system", he just voices some things he personally likes and dislikes.

I also don't think "good games with deep meaningful rpg elements are getting dumbed down". If you're talking about Mass Effect here (which I can only assume from the title) then I'd like to say that I think Mass Effect 2 was far superior to Mass Effect 1 (and I loved Mass effect 1). The characters were more interesting, you actually had a choice when it came to armour and weaponry (instead of just moving up from IV to V every so often), and the combat was all-round improved. I don't think it was "dumbed-down", I think various features were improved or replaced, generally with great results.

I unfortunately can't comment on Dragon Age 2 because I haven't played the game.

 

[Hyper-space]

Moreover this represents the trend of dumbing down the rpg system in recent games. Not the game itself mind you, but the reaction this author has. He is basicly saying, "Dragons are stupid and for nerds, but this game let you do that stuff while being a God of War clone!" You might argue that thats a good thing and sounds like great fun. More power to you. However, look at the title. Fantasy RPGs Get a Reckoning. Really? The idea that this is a huge blow to the nerds its bittersweet. Its ironic because the general audiances like these features but want them simplified to the point that they are pointless. He hates picking a class, but loves building the character he wants! What is wrong with this picture. Also its bitter because good games with deep meaningful rpg elements are getting dumbed down because this guy represents the audiance they are trying to connect with. That sucks.

No, hes not saying dragons are stupid, he just doesn't like fantasy settings.

And no, they do not want it simplified, they want it streamlined. The difference between which is easily determined: Streamlining means going from point A to point B with fewer actions. This can mean cutting down on the number of menus you'd have to open to perform simple actions, or cutting down on redundant skills and stats (such as in the case of the new Elder Scrolls, why have 8 attributes if they only change 3 things?).

 

[Jake the Snake]

I find your argument to be one big logical fallacy. You seriously think this one idiot represents some sort of unknown bastion of idiots that are supposedly at fault for the "dumbing down" of RPGs? You want to know what I think? People who believe RPGs are being dumbed down are sticks in the mud where even the slightest nod to combat with a faster than slower than fuck pace is somehow nerd blasphemy. Shut up. Shit changes. It's still fun. Get the fuck over it.

 

[BreakfastMan]

What the hell. Did you even read the link you gave us? Never did he say that he did not like RPGs, or thought that Fantasy RPG's were for nerds. He just said that he disliked fantasy. I quote from the first two lines of the article: "I don't like fantasy. Dragons, medieval junk, and chainmail have never been my thing." What exactly is your problem with him? Most of the stuff you say is totally misreading the article. Good gravy man, are trying to intentionally misinterpret nearly everything he says to start a flame war about the alleged "dumbing-down" of mainstream games?

Also, why does IGN have such a bad reputation? I have never understood that.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Same goes for games, you can have a awesome gameplay, stunning scenery and a gripping story and none of it will matter if 80% of the pople who buy it can't get into it because you have to read a 200 page instruction book to play it.

Of course, there will always be failures when introducing anything new. You want to be able to do complex things in a simple manner. You start the ignition by turning a key, you don't want a car that doesn't let you control the speed. But the idea that streamlining is an evil thing is crazy. In fact it is the only thing that can keep the genre alive. I enjoyed Mass effect 2 more than I enjoyed Baldur's Gate 2. Because ME 2 was more immersive. And as fun as BG 2 was at the time I wouldn't play it if released today. Because standards have risen.

QFT. Complexity =/= depth. Compare Super Smash Bros to something like Tekken. Smash, on the "pro" level, is at least if not more deep than other fighters, while remaining accessible to noobs like myself. Same goes for ME:2 and DA:O. DA:O has a more complex system than ME:2, but you will have to vary your tactics as often or more often during actual gameplay in ME:2.

 

[Maya Posch]

Nothing wrong with not liking a fantasy setting. I'm quite smitten with sci-fi settings myself

Fun thing about the definition of 'Role Playing Game' is that it can be applied to almost any game, as you are playing a certain role slash character whether you are playing a game of Crysis, ME, Final Fantasy or bloody FarmVille. Yes, I went there.

To say that one doesn't like RPGs is like saying that you don't like games

 

[back pain]

Negativity rules the internet, even if 99% of players think your game is the second coming of Jesus, half the posts on gaming forms will still refer to that same game as worst thing ever created.

I dislike pointless stats and over redundant user interfaces, these things tend to get in the way of good gameplay, story, and characters.

 

[fates_puppet13]

what a moron
now i know why everyone discredits ing on site
rpg's are fantastic
that is simply put a hack and slash
its like someone's trying to state that devil may cry is an rpg because you can level up weapons


if he wants rpgs with fast paced combati have 2 for him right off the bat in 6 words:
system shock 2 and demon's souls

 

[Xaio30]

Nothing wrong with not liking a fantasy setting. I'm quite smitten with sci-fi settings myself

Fun thing about the definition of 'Role Playing Game' is that it can be applied to almost any game, as you are playing a certain role slash character whether you are playing a game of Crysis, ME, Final Fantasy or bloody FarmVille. Yes, I went there.

To say that one doesn't like RPGs is like saying that you don't like games

Sorry, but that's RPG-elements you're talking about. A few choices =/= RPG.

Sadly, the RPG genre today is more about living out a predefined role instead of creating your very own character.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

IGN exec: You know that guy who doesn't like fantasy settings or RPGs in general?
Editor: Yeah....
IGN exec: Have him cover that new fantasy RPG!
Editor: ..... (I hate my life)

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Firstly, how is ME2 or DA2 a dumbed down RPG? For a RPG to be a RPG, you don't even need to fight enemies so you don't need to have equipment and weapons. A RPG is all about the role-playing; deciding what your character says, does, and decides is the core of a RPG. How did ME2 or DA2 dumb down that aspect of their games? I personally hate D&D fantasy as well, I've played loads of pen and paper D&D and played several games based in the D&D world, and I'm fucking tired of playing with the same classes over and over again in the same world. I want to experience new worlds with new and different classes. That's why I really enjoy Mass Effect because it's a new universe with different races and classes. Yeah, it's not that different than most sci-fi but it does have unique races and classes. You know, a fantasy world is any world that is not the real world, the D&D world shouldn't be the only fantasy world and used over and over again ad nauseam.

 

[dancinginfernal]

Jade Empire - Faster combat, consistent appearance, unique setting. Well received.

Dragon Age 2 - Faster combat, consistent party appearance, lazy dungeon design. Horribly received.

All the hate I've seen is just because it's not the same as Origins. It's not "dumbed down", it's different.

 

[bombadilillo]

I find your argument to be one big logical fallacy. You seriously think this one idiot represents some sort of unknown bastion of idiots that are supposedly at fault for the "dumbing down" of RPGs? You want to know what I think? People who believe RPGs are being dumbed down are sticks in the mud where even the slightest nod to combat with a faster than slower than fuck pace is somehow nerd blasphemy. Shut up. Shit changes. It's still fun. Get the fuck over it.

So you are attacking my generalization of this guy representing the target audiance of the desired new rpg demographic by gereneralizing "people who think rpgs are dumbed down."

Who ever. EVER. "Said, this combat got too much better since last game." That has nothing to do with the rpg elements people are upset that are being simplified away.

 

[Keava]

I play pen and paper RPGs for nearly 20 years and never ever liked the way AD&D handled the mechanics. The system of THAC0 was probably one of worst mechanics ever invented in RPGs shortly followed by the seriously overdone stat and class system of Warhammer:Fantasy RPG.

There are reasons why i mostly play either WoD or custom system loosely based on existing ones, streamlining the core mechanics as much as possible. I don't like being class locked, i don't like +number equipment, i don't like having to roll for every action, then roll for effect, then roll for rolling again. If i have to roll the dice more often than actually role-play during a session i'm not having fun. I enjoy role-playing when it allows for creativity and Mage: The Ascension is one of best examples of it with the completely free form magic system.

And that's when limits of technology strike when it comes to videogames. You just simply can't have everything in an limited medium. Remember some of very first cRPGs? You had very little control over combat, it was just click to attack, or run into mob to attack, or pick attack from list and attack in turns (still used in jRPGs...gods know why). If the creators of those old games had possibilities we have today i'm pretty sure that in many case the combat would be more fluid, responsive and action oriented. Look how TES combat evolved over years, the goal was always to make it more interactive.

 

[Grey_Focks]

Jade Empire - Faster combat, consistent appearance, unique setting. Well received.

Dragon Age 2 - Faster combat, consistent party appearance, lazy dungeon design. Horribly received.

All the hate I've seen is just because it's not the same as Origins. It's not "dumbed down", it's different.

You know, I think you hit something. If Dragon Age 2 were instead Jade Empire 2, people wouldn't have complained half as much as they did!

 

[Maya Posch]

Nothing wrong with not liking a fantasy setting. I'm quite smitten with sci-fi settings myself

Fun thing about the definition of 'Role Playing Game' is that it can be applied to almost any game, as you are playing a certain role slash character whether you are playing a game of Crysis, ME, Final Fantasy or bloody FarmVille. Yes, I went there.

To say that one doesn't like RPGs is like saying that you don't like games

Sorry, but that's RPG-elements you're talking about. A few choices =/= RPG.

Sadly, the RPG genre today is more about living out a predefined role instead of creating your very own character.

So you're saying that only a D&D-style game can truly be called an RPG, then?