Thoughts on Hawthorne, Ca Police Kill Dog

[shootthebandit]

This whole incident really makes me glad i dont live in america. Of course the police in britian can be arseholes and the vast majority probably are but at least they are not arseholes with firearms (and more importantly the authority to use them) you will always get people who abuse this power and especially when police forces are as corrupt and political as they are.

Sure the guy was being obtuse but they were overly harsh with him too. I think in all honesty a more humane method should have been used to deal with the dog and a less forceful approach with the man wouldve probably stopped all this. For example "excuse me sir please remove yourself from the area, we are conducting an investigation"

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Any cop incapable of non-lethally restraining a person or animal in that situation is insufficiently trained. Any cop unwilling to non-lethally restrain a person or animal in that situation needs to turn in their badge. I usually like to take a neutral stance on issues like this, but this is just unacceptable.

This, are cops supposed to be trained professionals or cowboys who pull out their guns at the slightest sight of trouble?

 

[Trillovinum]

Ok... being a police officer is a very tough and demanding job. It takes effort and dedication to do right and above all that, the people should be able to look up to them, that requires a rare ability to resist the temptations that come with having power over others. Because of this not many people have what it takes to become a good police officer.
Many people that are actually working as policemen do not fit this picture and that's sad, since they pull down those truly good cops, for which I have the greatest respect and cause them to be grouped together with the irresponsible, powerhungry maniacs I hear so many people describe.

That being said, there is a huge problem I see in American police officers.
Speaking as a European, I can't help but notice that American police reach for their guns incredibly quickly. They seldom try and find a different, more diplomatic aproach and almost always reach for their firearm, which in my oppinion should only be a last defence. If their army can adopt a 'don't fire unless fired upon' policy, why can't the police?

As for shooting dogs and other animals, why does this happen at all? Why can't police services recieve better training to deal with animals? I hear there's people out there that offer such education freely yet very few offices actually take the courses.

 

[The Event]

That's a misleading comparison because humans can understand language and intent, whereas a dog cannot.

It's a perfectly valid comparison as we aren't talking about threatening someone with being pepper sprayed we are talking about the effectiveness of deploying the pepper spray.

No one is saying the cop should have threatened the dog with being sprayed, they are saying he should have sprayed it.
He could have got one of the other officers to back him up with a gun in case the spray didn't work.
Instead he went for his gun the moment the dog came out of the car.

Captcha "make my day" how apt.

 

[spartan231490]

I apologize if this thread has been done. I did several searches and didn't find any so here we go.

Warning this is a bit graphic as it shows a dog being shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDBZr4ie2AE

I believe the owner was getting arrested for being inside a perimeter set up by police to protect people near a crime scene. This is illegal.

There is two opposing views here. Most react with outrage because the dog got shot and killed by a police officer and that there were other options that wouldn't of resulted in the dog's death. The other view is that it was the owner's fault for not restraining the dog properly and disrupting the police at a crime scene.

The youtube debate in the comments gets sort of vile with name calling and such due to no mods I guess. I think this might be a better place to talk about it. What is your stance on this situation and why?

He was not inside the perimeter, he was arrested for filming them(which is perfectly legal).

With that out of the way, this was an abomination. If you watch the video, the dog was clearly not attacking but being friendly. It sniffed around the ground, and was just standing there. Then, after being approached by the officer, it jumped, not at the officer like they claim, but straight up in the air like most excited dogs will do, and they shot it. Did you also know that the man in question is currently suing that police department on the grounds of police brutality? They punished him by killing his dog, plain and simple. Anyone who has spent much time with dogs can see that the animal was being friendly, not violent, and they shot it anyway.

It is my firm belief that all 3 officers involved should be fired for failing to keep their cool in a stressful situation, it's not safe to have police who fire their guns at non-threats just because they're in a stressful situation. Further, the officer that actually fired his weapon should be liable in the same way that a civilian would be, both in criminal and civil courts.

According to the news story I heard, he was playing music very loudly during a armed robbery call. They were trying to hear what was going to happen in the call. They arrested him for "obstructing a investigation" because he refused to turn down the music. Not quite as bad. Still I think the dogs death was unjustified. They have tasers. They can use non-lethal force when threatened. they didn't and the dog paid for it.

They say that he was playing music, but notice you can't hear any in the video. Why arrest him 2 to 3 minutes after he complied and turned the music down(the length of the video). I very much doubt he was ever playing music or asked to turn it down, they just made it up as an excuse for shooting that poor dog.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

According to regs, Cops are allowed to use lethal force against dogs if they feel that the dog is an immediate threat, such as if they have to storm into a house and they get attacked by a guard dog.

That being said, just looking at the video you can see that the dog did not jump out the window and run at them like a rabid animal, nor was the suspect attempting to fight them and creating a panicky mood. The dog walked over to them relatively slowly and the Cops had more than enough time to pull out pepper spray or a Tazer, either one of which would have worked very well. They also made things worse by moving toward the dog in a threatening manner, and since the suspect was clearly not resisting arrest (hell, he was basically doing the opposite) they could have easily uncuffed him for a second and allowed him to secure the dog.

This is one of those situations where if you take the regs literally, it's possible they can argue it's justified, but anyone can watch the video and clearly see the Cops could have handled this 1000x better.

 

[rednose1]

Yet another reason why cops disgust me. They don't even bother trying to find the best solution to any problem, merely the easiest one. This is the end result. Worst yet, they won't face any consequences, seeing as how all they gotta do is say they were threatened and it's case closed.

The cops did do the right thing, the dog tried to attacked them and they shot it and I wouldn?t insult the police one day you may need them.

The right solution doesn't involve an animal getting shot as the first choice of action. They couldn't see the situation escalating, and have poor problem solving skills to take care of it before it came to a head like it did. The police made a bad call, and in that line of work, bad calls are simply not allowed.

As to ever needing them, nope. Better armed than the cops that would arrive, 2 dogs that know to protect the house, and home security system. If anything, cops are more likely to show up, look around, and do nothing after that.

 

[CrystalShadow]

It surprised me how many people completely throw logic and evidence out the window when it comes to damning the Police.

The cop was trying to grab it's collar to restrain it and the dog attacked. What would you of done? Sat there and hoped it decided not to kill you?

I don't know what's more pathetic, the fact that people would rather have this dog potentially maul this human being to death, or how quickly people will just immediately assume the cops are bastards without actually getting all the facts.

You're doing much the same thing here though with regards to evidence.

It isn't at all clear from the video what the dog is doing, nor that the officer made any attempt to grab the dog's collar or restrain it in any way.

While the 'lunge' or jump or whatever it was the dog did immediately prior to being shot is rather ambiguous, the dog's overall pattern of behaviour really isn't very consistent with that of an aggressive dog out to hurt anyone.

All in all it's equally likely to have been the kind of playful tendency some dogs have to jump all over people.

Yet you claim that this highly ambigious evidence is clear proof of what is going on, when there is more than enough room for questioning whether that was in fact the case...

Logic and evidence in this case, based on that video, is almost entirely ambiguous.

whether that reaction was justified appears dubious, but this is not clear enough to say either way.
Please don't claim to hold the only possible logical position when the evidence doesn't really support your argument that clearly.

Nothing is more tedious than people proclaiming their argument to be more logical or rational than that of others when careful investigation of the available evidence doesn't in fact support that notion.

 

[The Lugz]

I can think of at least 10 ways I could subdue a dog without using any weapon, and several without hurting the dog at all. if an armoured cop with backup can't then he deserves to be fired, mocked or fined.( or all three )

the two most obvious being:

UNCUFF THE GUY DUMBASS.

Pin the dog, ( jump or fall on it and necklock it )

this is a total failure to respond to a situation in a non psychopathic way,
oh a dog, it's angry, I have a gun that solves all problems pop pop.

the very definition of serve and protect right there.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Indeed, uncuff the guy (why the fuck was that necessary in the first place), let the owner take care of his dog. Then clear out the situation by having a hearty chat with the guy, telling him to piss off and turn his music lower in case it's needed.

You know, like reasonable adults.

 

[Undomesticated Equine]

There were several people recording that on their cell phones and the cops decided to arrest that one guy only cause, well i would like to hear their explanation. He put the dog in a car but the poor faithful thing decided to protect its master and jumped out the window and incompetent coward in uniform decided to shoot him. Now tell me that USA is not a police state.

 

[major_chaos]

Any cop incapable of non-lethally restraining a person or animal in that situation is insufficiently trained. Any cop unwilling to non-lethally restrain a person or animal in that situation needs to turn in their badge. I usually like to take a neutral stance on issues like this, but this is just unacceptable.

Go ahead try to restrain a 120 pound rott with your bare hands, I'll wait.

That's what happens when you let violent animals loose on the street. Innocent dogs get killed.

Do tell, what do you propose should be used to control crime without police?

OT: yoloswag shitstain gets his dog shot by doing everything in his power to provoke the cops, but it still must be the cop's fault because, as we all know they are state sponsored murder robots.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Do tell, what do you propose should be used to control crime without police?

OT: yoloswag shitstain gets his dog shot by doing everything in his power to provoke the cops, but it still must be the cop's fault because, as we all know they are state sponsored murder robots.

Dude what?

First off, he wasn't the only one filming, he was just a few meters closer than the rest. OK maybe filming this kind of thing when you're not press isn't the best idea, but that's the kind of cellphone-driven world we live in nowadays.

Secondly, the guy immediately responded to the police's orders and let himself be cuffed. For whatever reason that is neccesary, seeing that the guy showed no signs of aggression.

Finally, the dog responded to its owner being apprehended. Logical solution? Give the owner the time to calm his animal, use your damn mouth instead of your gun.

 

[Weaver]

There should be a unit similar to the MP in the military which watches police officers and can arrest and harass them just like they can the regular populace. This body would not be able to police regular citizens.

 

[Zeckt]

As much as I would like to jump on the cop hating bandwagon, I simply can't because every experience I have had with them have been positive. At one point one could of ruined my life for driving without insurance (I DID NOT KNOW) but simply warned me to get my insurance sorted out ASAP.

At that point I thought I was still insured, but when I found out I was not afterwards I went over the reaction with the cop and the way he was looking at me. He knew. I would of lost my savings, job and everything. He knew ...

 

[DugMachine]

So much stupidity in one thread. Why do people think in situations like this that cops can think clearly while their adrenaline is pumping? They're not trained for combat or dealing with animals. They see a rottweiler jumping at them and they get scared. Their first thought is not "Oh I should uncuff this man and allow him to restrain his dog". To us quite a few seconds pass between the dog jumping out the car and it getting shot but to the officers the situation is going by so quickly that they can't stop to think. He saw a danger, and he handled it.

What sickens me more than anything is that people would rather have a cop mauled than to protect himself for the life of a fucking dog. I understand some cops are crooked and I doubt this cop is perfect but to demonise him for looking out for himself and his fellow officers is just retarded. None of you were at the scene and can shove all your "I would have..." up your ass. You don't know what you would have done.

"Fuck the police" is for the ignorant fuckers that populate ghettos/gangs not so called "intellectuals" in a god damn video game website. Better not call the police when you need them since they're such pigs. God damn I'm mad.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

So much stupidity in one thread. Why do people think in situations like this that cops can think clearly while their adrenaline is pumping? They're not trained for combat or dealing with animals. They see a rottweiler jumping at them and they get scared. Their first thought is not "Oh I should uncuff this man and allow him to restrain his dog". To us quite a few seconds pass between the dog jumping out the car and it getting shot but to the officers the situation is going by so quickly that they can't stop to think. He saw a danger, and he handled it.

What sickens me more than anything is that people would rather have a cop mauled than to protect himself for the life of a fucking dog. I understand some cops are crooked and I doubt this cop is perfect but to demonise him for looking out for himself and his fellow officers is just retarded. None of you were at the scene and can shove all your "I would have..." up your ass. You don't know what you would have done.

"Fuck the police" is for the ignorant fuckers that populate ghettos/gangs not so called "intellectuals" in a god damn video game website. Better not call the police when you need them since they're such pigs. God damn I'm mad.

I'm a lifeguard, I only do it in the vacations as a job on the side, I've probably received far less training than any of those cops and should be considered to have far less experience with "high-adrenaline" situations.

Still, why can I then stay calm and try for a reasonable solution in the large amount of situations where a number of people have threatened others or me around the open-air pool I usually guard, together with the few actual serious situations of someone almost breaking their necks and drowning.

They're supposed to be trained, if they can't focus on what they've learned when the situation requires it they shouldn't be cops, period.
Just like doctors, firemen, soldiers, lifeguards and many other professions.

 

[superline51]

That is exactly what I would have done. You don't know this dog, you don't know how its been trained or anything else about it. The second a dog that size threatened me, I would take it down, cause pepper spray would have almost no effect, you couldn't wrestle it down without getting injured.

 

[DugMachine]

snip

Look, I'm sure you are superman and can dodge bullets if you had to with the grace of a ballerina but I'm just not discussing this anymore. The fact of the matter is within a few posts I've had my grandfather, father, uncle and cousins all insulted because a police officer tried to defend himself.

Not everyone deals with adrenaline the same, even actual trained soldiers can totally lose all sense of control when shit hits the fan. I too was a lifeguard and it's not a demanding job. I saved a few people and yes it's a rush but nowhere near "Holy shit I might just get mauled by this dog if I don't protect myself." This cop could well have a phobia of dogs? Nobody has brought that up.

Was there a better way to deal with it? Yes of course there was. But it didn't happen and whether he handled it in a controlled manner or aggressively (like he did) he made the right call one way or another. It's. A. Fucking. Dog.

 

[Jynthor]

It's the owner's fault.
1. He was inside the perimeter line, the cops start to walk toward him, he starts provoking them.
2. He puts the dog in the car, but leaves the windows open.
3. Police arrest him, dog gets very aggressive and attacks, cop tries to grab its collar, dog attacks, cop doesn't take any chances and shoots the dog, sad but very likely to be necessary.

All of this could have been avoided if the owner wasn't a complete idiot.
I've also heard the cop didn't have a taser on him, I don't know whether this is true or not.