Thoughts on Sonic Forces reception

dscross

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shrekfan246 said:
The length really isn't something I'm going to hold against it. I can beat Sonic 1 in under an hour. Sonic 2 doesn't take me much longer if I'm not bothering with chaos emeralds or anything. Sonic 3 and Sonic Mania are a bit longer, but I can beat them in a few hours as well; I beat Sonic Mania the same day I started playing it. Sonic Generations isn't much longer, and most of that is because of its cutscenes and the padding that it has in the form of the missions you have in each level.
It's less the length of game as a whole and more the size of the levels for me I think. There are 30 tiny levels rather than between 8 and 12 big levels - with no bosses at the end - making them feel like they are ridiculously easy. I suppose Colours levels were quite short, but I found those levels more challenging. In general, it's mainly just waaaaay too easy for me. This might be the easiest Sonic game I've ever played I think, and I don't think any are difficult.

However, if you loved it, that's fair. I didn't dislike it, I just found it pretty lukewarm. I don't think it deserves the panning it will inevitably get from critics. As a reference point, if I'd give Mania, Generations and Colours a solid 9 or above, and Lost World a 7 and I'd probably give it this game a 6.5 I think. I'll probably return and replay the levels to get better scores so can't dislike it that much.
 

shrekfan246

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dscross said:
shrekfan246 said:
The length really isn't something I'm going to hold against it. I can beat Sonic 1 in under an hour. Sonic 2 doesn't take me much longer if I'm not bothering with chaos emeralds or anything. Sonic 3 and Sonic Mania are a bit longer, but I can beat them in a few hours as well; I beat Sonic Mania the same day I started playing it. Sonic Generations isn't much longer, and most of that is because of its cutscenes and the padding that it has in the form of the missions you have in each level.
It's less the length of game as a whole and more the size of the levels for me I think. There are 30 tiny levels rather than 8 big levels - with no bosses at the end - making them feel like they are ridiculously easy. In general, it's mainly just waaaaay too easy for me. This might be the easiest Sonic game I've ever played I think, and I don't think any are difficult.
I mean, I probably have a pretty skewed measure for this myself because all of my best times for every stage, Classic and Modern, in Generations except Planet Wisp is well under 4 minutes, with many of them being 2-2.5 minutes as well. For as large as the levels are, I still don't find them particularly difficult or lengthy. And Planet Wisp also happens to be the level I've played the least, precisely because I think it drags on far too long.

Like, I get what you're saying, I'm certainly not trying to change your mind or anything. And I wouldn't mind if the average time for stages in Forces was closer to 3 or 3.5 minutes than the 1.5-2.5 I've been getting on them, but many of the stages in Colors could be completed in under a minute without even knowing them and I still loved that game too. The length just isn't one of my priorities, since I can already say that I've enjoyed replaying many of the stages.

I actually kinda liked the way that Jim Sterling put it in his video, that the highs of Forces don't reach the same level as Generations, but it doesn't dip out as low either.

I don't think it deserves the panning it will inevitably get from critics.
Honestly, at this point I'm a little surprised that people actually even gave Mania positive coverage, since it seems like enjoying Sonic games is just not the cool thing to do anymore.
 

dscross

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shrekfan246 said:
I get what you are saying. I just wish I'd found it more of a challenge I guess. It was just such a cakewalk that I came out feeling like I hadn't done much tbh. Definitely felt like I got more out of previous games.

Have you tried out episode Shadow yet? More of the same?
 

gsilver

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Sega may not know how to do Sonic in 3D, but I was pretty impressed by what I saw of Sonic Utopia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5paaz16Nw20

It acknowledges what made the Genesis 2D Sonics good:
Not necessarily speed, but multi-tiered levels that encourage exploration.
It's also pretty much how I'd imagine Green Hill zone to be like, if it were 3D.

So, no, it isn't that Sonic can't work in 3D. It's just that Sega doesn't know how to make Sonic work in 3D.
 

shrekfan246

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dscross said:
shrekfan246 said:
Have you tried out episode Shadow yet? More of the same?
I haven't played all of it yet, but more or less. It seems to use slightly tweaked versions of, or templates from, stages in the main game, but they do have more obstacles in them than the standard levels had. Also it has a bunch of Shadow and Infinite trying to out-edge each other, which I find absolutely hilarious.

EDIT: I think it's also super short if you're just playing it to finish it, but since it was free that's again not something I'm really going to hold against the game.
 

immortalfrieza

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The last Sonic game I really played was Shadow the Hedgehog. I love both the game and the character himself immensely and I can't understand all the freaking hatred (well, I agree about the motorcycle controls but the rest of the vehicles worked just fine and the cycle was only in like 1 or 2 levels) it gets. So much innovation, the story, the gameplay, the different objectives that changed the way the story went that gave it so much replay value (and is really still the only "Good or Evil choices" game that actually changes the story depending on what you do in a real fashion,) so much of it just worked so brilliantly and the complaints seem to boil down to Shadow being too "edgy" as though that was a bad thing or even really true (dark maybe, but edgy, not really and if so so what?)

I then tried Secret Rings and 06 and honestly I couldn't get more than an couple hours into them. The first for the godawful motion controls (like pretty much every other game on the Wii) and the other for this really stupid plot and visuals that made my eyes bleed, and I just lost interest in Sonic entirely. I've kinda wanted to try some of the games since then but the quality has near unanimously agreed to have been up and down for a long time and there's so many worthwhile games I still have yet to beat I just can't be assed to play any of them.
 

Hawki

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dscross said:
It's getting panned by reviewers at the moment. It saddens me to see Sonic get this treatment after the success of Mania (I'm a long time casual fan).
Ditto. :(

I haven't played a Sonic game since Unleashed/Rush Adventure (one of them, forget which was the last one), but I'd like to see him do better than he's currently doing. :(

CritialGaming said:
Sonic does not, and will never, fit into a 3D system.
Except Sonic Adventure 1/2, Heroes, reportedly Generations and Colours, etc. (do isometric entries count as 3D?)

I'm not disputing that there's some absolute Sonic turds (Secret Rings for instance, at least in gameplay), but 3D in of itself isn't the problem. It's easy to find 2D stinkers as well (e.g. Sonic Blast).

dscross said:
I don't understand how Sonic still has fans,
Speaking as a casual fan:

*Old games were part of my childhood, so there's that.

*Sonic's remained very much alive in comics, cartoons, etc. I ended up quitting the Archie comics series for various reasons, but the cartoons have always been fun to varying extents. Boom is arguably a microcosm, in that we have a pretty good cartoon stemming from a reportedly mediocre game.

*Very much a third tier reason, but as someone who writes fanfiction, Sonic as a multiverse is very easy to write for. How and why could fill a topic in of its own (note: it's not slash, so don't get any ideas), but that is arguably part of the reason for me.

As I said, very much a casual fan, and I can't see myself getting Forces anytime soon given how it's been panned, but let's just say my interest isn't completely dead.

CritialGaming said:
I hated the Adventure games. I don't like any of Sonic's weird fucking friends. (Big the CAT!)
No-one likes Big, but that's like shooting fish in a barrel.

CritialGaming said:
Look at the list of 3D Sonic games. Then set them aside into a good or bad pile, and then look at the good pile. How many of the "good" ones are actually good, and not just better then the really shitty ones. The answer is none imo.
Do isometric ones count? Assuming they do, and confining this to "good" or "bad," and limiting them to the ones I've played:

THE GOOD

-Sonic 3D
-Sonic Adventure
-Sonic Adventure 2
-Sonic Heroes
-Sonic Battle

THE BAD

-Sonic Labyrinth
-Shadow the Hedgehog
-Sonic 06
-Sonic and the Secret Rings

I'd have preferred an "average" option as well, (I've played some of Unleashed, but I can't honestly put it in "good" or "bad") but if I'm left with those ones, that leaves me at around 50/50 as far as 3D entries go. If you cut out the isometric entries, that has me at 3 good, 3 bad.

So, yeah. I don't buy the idea that Sonic in 3D is inherently a bad thing.

Xsjadoblayde said:
As a person who quite enjoyed sonic adventure 1 & 2...though 2 aged better...i believe they started giving up after then. It's something I've accepted long ago.
I don't think they gave up per se. I mean, looking at the mainstream Sonic entries, it seems to me like there's a flow:

-Adventure 1 & 2 are congruent. 2 has changes for better and worse, but it's still basically the core ideas.

-Heroes is an oddball that I'm mixed on. Different gameplay, different tone, different everything (well, almost). I can't see it being an evolution of the Adventure formula.

-Shadow and 06 are the 3D entries' 'grimdark' phase, and the point where the 3D entries went downhill. Even if 06 played perfectly, there's some choices in there that are just bizzare (e.g. Elise). 06 is more in sync with Adventure than Heroes, but it's flawed at its core.

-Storybook games aren't mainline entries (arguably Shadow isn't either, so...)

-Unleashed strikes me as a reaction to 06 - more kiddy tone, a more basic approach. Then we go into Colors, which strips things down even further (no Werehog), even in plot (an even more kiddy tone).

-Generations and Forces are congruent in that we're in the realm of really leaning on nostalgia. Lost World is the odd one out in this series - not sure how it fits in.

Honestly, it strikes me that as of Shadow, the 3D games have been chasing their tail. Adventure 1, 2, and Heroes knew what they wanted to be, but after that, we're either going down the 'dark and gritty' route, then going to 'back to basics,' then going to nostalgia.

immortalfrieza said:
The last Sonic game I really played was Shadow the Hedgehog. I love both the game and the character himself immensely and I can't understand all the freaking hatred (well, I agree about the motorcycle controls but the rest of the vehicles worked just fine and the cycle was only in like 1 or 2 levels) it gets. So much innovation, the story, the gameplay, the different objectives that changed the way the story went that gave it so much replay value (and is really still the only "Good or Evil choices" game that actually changes the story depending on what you do in a real fashion,) so much of it just worked so brilliantly and the complaints seem to boil down to Shadow being too "edgy" as though that was a bad thing or even really true (dark maybe, but edgy, not really and if so so what?)
Shadow the Hedgehog has a good idea in it (the branching pathways), but I can't say I'm fond of it. Looking back at the 3D games, Heroes felt like a step down from the Adventure games for me, but I still enjoyed it. But playing Shadow...that was where things just felt wrong. And I can say I don't like it for the following reasons:

-The branching paths is a nice idea in theory, but it's just so tedious (for me) to go through all of those paths to get the true ending, especially when there's often no congruence between them. As in, Shadow might be a jackass in one path, then go paragon the next second, and go on what feels like an unrelated sub-plot. It also means I have to play Westopolis over and over. I'd have much preferred it if there were just three paths (good/evil/neutral) that allowed for more refined experiences.

-Didn't affect me at the time, but looking back, Shadow pushed the 'dark and edgy' route too far. This partly stems from my issues with Shadow as a character post-SA2 (which is another matter), but, yeah.

-Don't find it fun to play. Guns are tedious, and the controls feel slippery. Heroes had this problem as well, but not nearly as bad.

Overall, just found Shadow tedious. And eventually I got 06 afterwards and...well, I don't think it's the worst game in the world, but like Shadow, it's more dull than anything.
 

dscross

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ProfMcStevie said:
However, Forces isn't just bad, it's a bland awfully put together unpolished dumpster fire that you can see the seams barely holding it together every-time Sonic remarks how could your OC character. This was a development NIGHTMARE featuring basically no one of note from previous entries that could carry the experience with such an oddball franchise to keep it together and sort it's shit out. It was doomed from the start and while I've heard scarce sources thus far there is some word that seeing Forces in its 4 year development struggle hard that Iizuka basically greenlit Mania because of it.
Yeah I've played it now. It's ok. Just ok. It's waaaaay too easy and I found the stages much too short (not short and challenging like Colours - short and easy). There's nothing objectively wrong with it, but nothing really surprised me, gameplay wise, emotionally, or story wise and I didn't get excited about it. I don't think I like it as much as any other recent Sonic games tbh (except Boom, obviously). But then I like Lost World and Unleashed so what do I know. But it's not awful. It's a decidedly mediocre game, but it doesn't deserve the panning critics are giving it. As I've said further up it gets a 6.5 from me.
 

jhoroz

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Another year, another shitty 3D Sonic game. Business as usual as far as I'm concerned. 3D Sonic games are a lost cause but they'll never go away due to the severe stockholm syndrome that hardcore Sonic fans have.