Right, I was explaining that my position wasn't at odds with Vault 101. The post was set up in response to me as if I'd said something wrong. She jumped on it as if I were saying that them having an agenda was bad.Silvanus said:
Thread Topic - LGBT and Video Games
- Thread starter grassgremlin
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Shoehorning, to force into an inadequate space. I have no idea what else Duster has said in this thread but if they're asking why force more messages into an already shitty game then it would strictly meet the criteria of that word. Shoehorning does not necessarily mean that what is being forced into inadequate space is bad. If Duster has made other comments to indicate that he's against it in general then forgive my lack of context in this response.Zachary Amaranth said:
As far as putting in a bad game:
I mean, I don't think people really want it in shitty games, do they. I guess people could argue that any representation is at least representation but trying to make a message in a stupid way often comes off the same way as those awkward sexual harassment videos in school did. Laughable and dismissible.
Including it in a world like the Last of Us? That's meaningful. That contributes to the narrative of inclusiveness. Had it been put in Colonial Marines? Pointless if not counterproductive. That is, unless we're specifically going for quantity over quality. Then I guess that's more philosophical.
Oh, so if I see the right post on page 2 you appear to be disagreeing putting it in a game where it does not make sense to discuss sexuality. Is that correct?Duster said:
If so, then the space it's being forced in would be inadequate due to not being the right context. Like if we're talking about turtles and someone responds by telling us they're gay. "Alright... nothing wrong with that... but we're discussing turtles"
I can understand that perspective. It's not like every game with a straight protagonist always specifies it as so. Like when stories go out of their way to prove that the protagonist has a case of the "not gays" when it doesn't make sense to specify that in context either.
Well yeah the thing we agreed is that you can't really fit lgbt themes into most games in purposeful ways. Realistic LGBT endeavors are mostly social and it's a social movement. Outside the context of a romanticized anime world, such as catherine or persona, adults use their sexuality in only a small handful of decisions they make, most of those decisions have no reason to be in a video game. Dating drama, or lobbying for legal rights, don't translate well into video games(games like crusader kings 2 do a good job of sexual drama, but it's not a very poetic approach).Lightknight said:
LGBT themes are at the middle and second to the top on maslows hierarchy of needs, and video games best cover the basic two needs of the hierarchy, such as survival of yourself, of your race, whatever, since ultimately they must have gameplay and execution of motor functions.
Here are some of my favorite games, of which LGBT themes wouldn't contribute anything significant to the narrative.
-homeworld
-neverwinter nights
-mario sunshine
-quake
-jedi knight: academy
some people would consider a game like quake to not even have a narrative, but it's still a classic game, once again video games are suited to cover other types of endeavors.
Now the guy I was talking about earlier stated that pseudo dynamic main characters means there is potential for purposeful LGBT themes, which could be. But from looking at something like mass effect 3(not one of biowares best games), or skyrim (The "choices" the game gave you where laughable, or boiling down to one option vs skipping the sidequest. Dark brotherhood was okay but most of the games decisions had no meaning) I don't see the potential.
Well, two things. The first is simply people like you represent a very tiny portion of humanity. Men that aren't wired like you actually find gay sex rather disgusting even if they don't care what you do in privacy. As a result your dealing with a demand for very niche products, that aren't going to generate the sales needed to make companies happy. The video game industry today largely only catering to THE biggest audience they can find, while smaller ones, including some quite large, get neglected entirely. Man on Man themed games are somewhere down at the bottom of the pile of potential niche games, but I suppose you might see them if the game industry diversified away from simply focusing on AAA titles that need the most mainstream appeal possible, and went back to also developing "A", "B", and "C" quality games alongside the big AAA blockbusters.grassgremlin said:
That said, the whole reason why I'm posting this is because what you want already exists to some extent. Japan tends to produce a lot of pro and semi-pro quality games directed at sexual niche audiences. If you brows import sites and stuff like J-list you can probably find some games with the content you want, albeit your not going to be talking games to the standards of big time western productions. A few games of this sort like "Cho Aniki" (I think I spelled it right) have already achieved a cult following of sorts. Not being my cup of tea I haven't looked for this kind of stuff, but you might start by looking at sites like J-List and/or making requests of the people who run sites like that.
It might also help your case if you went out and supported some of the earlier mainstream efforts to bring homosexuality into gaming. For example "Phantasmagoria 2" features the protagonist coming to grips with his likely homosexuality as a major sub plot (dealing with his shrink if I remember). The game did not sell well, but is
available on things like GoG. My opinions on gay men are well known on this site, but I will say that if you don't represent the right way your not going to achieve much since the gaming industry will basically point to previous attempts to tap certain audiences and how they didn't work, not to mention noticing that even imports of certain material are relatively minor. Go find the most exploitive Yaoi games you can, order 10 copies (and pay for them) and encourage other people in your community to do the same, persist at it, and eventually someone might notice "hey, there has been a big spike in people buying gay porn games from Japan, maybe we can tap that market".
When it comes to gaming I mostly represent for RPGs and Survival Horror as opposed to sexual orientation, meaning I buy games of that sort even when they look kind of crappy to support the genera, and when one is decent I sometimes wind up buying it for more than one platform specifically to encourage more games of that sort being made. As a result of people like me it seems like Survival Horror in particular is undergoing an attempted resurgence, even if the AAA producers don't seem to really be able to figure out how to do it right (or perhaps more accurately lack the guts to try and do it right). The gay male community is a lot smaller, but could do something similar, though it would probably take some organization.
The way I see it is that sexual orientation can be a big part of someone's identity, and tends to go along with certain behaviors and subcultures as much as people like to pretend otherwise (and this applies to all orientations). When a creator makes a character, especially in a story heavy game, they usually envision them in a specific way and that includes sexual orientation. If you start putting requirements on a game that all characters must effectively be sexual blank slates, it's going to hurt storytelling and some development, creators aren't going to appreciate that and be limited, much like any other form of enforced political correctness. As I see things the thing that matters is giving creators the freedom to create the characters they want, given time, you will of course see gays, bis, and aesexuals be represented, as is already the case. To me I think it's actually been counter productive for people to do things like attack Bioware for NOT having gay relationship options in a game, simply because they had put them into other games. It being a matter of what the creators wanted for each specific work, as opposed to any bigotry. When you start telling people involved in a creative process what they HAVE to do it hurts everyone, starting with them, and ultimately undermines the idea of even having a creative process.Blue C Jeffrey said:
It should also be noted that homosexuality is very rare, contrary to how certain people are trying to promote it as being everywhere. It's not a situation where there are some kind of major communities of people that compare sizably to the majority being discriminated against "just because" despite some attempts to promote it that way. One important thing to understand is that when it comes to gay men in particular, the sex act/intimacy between them is repugnant to pretty much anyone else who isn't wired that way. A lot of people don't care as long as they don't have to be around when that stuff goes on, but when you start telling the vast majority of people "you have to see something that disgusts you" they aren't going to react positively. This is what makes things different from other social issues like racism, and say simply having put black actors into TV shows and such. The OP here is basically not pushing so much for simply having the relationship options, but for having a lot of extreme gay content. When your looking at a product, you have to consider the majority audience whose money you happen to want. As a general compromise Bioware has done a reasonable job by having gay and bi-sexual characters in some of their games when the developers thought they fit in and had ideas for them. The thing is though people need to leave it alone, and let Bioware do it's thing, as opposed to attacking if they dare to not include gay relationship options at some point, the creative process cannot be forced nor should it be. What the OP seems to want is like a AAA version of "Lightning Warrior Raidy" (which I've played both games of being a pervy guy) replacing the lesbians with gay men, and being propped up on the from page of STEAM and all over the shelves at Gamestop. I personally just don't see that happening, games like that exist at such a humble level for a reason, and I'd imagine there are probably gay-male equivilents if someone wants to dredge import shops and such.
Interesting, thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I think it would be more apropos to say that sexuality shouldn't be shoehorned in rather than specifically LGBT themes but I get what you're saying.Duster said:
*shrug* Well, if it's been discussed, I guess there's no point in conversation. I mean, it didn't look like much was discussed on pages 1 or 2 (which is why I asked), but since you appear to be closing the door on this, I won't pursue it.Duster said:
Still seems a ridiculous notion to me, though.
Last I checked there's hasn't been a game that existed that I know of that had "social commentary" for being straight.cleric of the order said:
Why do we need some educational artistic introspective struggles of a gay man? I just wanna play a hot piece of male ass that likes dudes.
As long as that's the game they wanted to make in the first place, then go ahead.
Though, just because the game is diverse or progressive doesn't make it a better game.
Though, just because the game is diverse or progressive doesn't make it a better game.
The list of games in which a LGBT theme wouldn't contribute anything of significance is pretty much a list of nearly every single game ever made. I have yet to see a single game where LGBT themes contribute anything at all to a game. I am not saying they are bad or should not be added but I have yet to see a game where a persons sexuality is relevant in any way at all.Duster said:
I think that the whole attempt to feminize men's formal wear comes with the whole issue of people looking down on men who like to do "feminine" things. When dressing a certain way puts you at risk of physical violence, the marketing is probably going to be a bit more challenging.Lightknight said:
Still, there is certainly more leeway to women to present with otherwise masculine associated clothing. Some people might silently judge when you wear pantsuits in non-business situations, but I certainly have not received any particularly bad backlash. While my performance concerns are valid, I do admit to using them more as an excuse when people question my attire. It's actually funny how apathetic I am about clothing 99% of the time when compared to how excited I get about performance attire/my more 'masculine' formal wear.
As far as casual wear goes, I can definitely understand why your wife was so happy with those jeans! (And rock on for encouraging her to dress as she pleases.) I have some women's jeans with deep pockets, but with the exception of 1 pair (that frankly look/feel like men's jeans), they're just not great for everyday wear. I've actually been thinking about buying some men's jeans lately just so I can have more than 3 pairs of casual pants that I actually like wearing. I don't understand why so much of women's clothing has to be designed to show every curve on the body. Yeah, if you like wearing that style, be my guest, but it's annoying that the only other option is to shop in the men's department.
I have a tendency to be long-winded with little provocation, so apologizing for the length is almost second-nature. Still, even though I haven't been asking many questions myself, (I usually try to be more deliberate about volleying questions back and forth,) I always appreciate an exchange of perspectives.
Actually, the kind of example you bring up is as close I get to talking about my identity offline. (For me personally, I don't think the "closet" narrative really works with my orientation, as I do not feign interest to appear straight; but, if I have to express my disinterest, I explicitly avoid the term "asexual" to avoid the stronger reactions that come from hearing that term.) Either way, your thoughts are much more preferable to what I normally see.
Come to think of it, a lot of the excuses for not believing a character who explicitly states that they're just not interested in anyone that way as are the same exact excuses people use to talk someone out of identifying as asexual: "They haven't met the right person yet," "maybe there's something wrong with them," "maybe they're lying," "maybe there's some super traumatic past event that made them this way" etc.. It'd still have to be handled with care to avoid the PSA trap, whether by explicitly avoiding the cut-and-paste most common asexual experiences or by just not dwelling on the topic.
I will admit though that even if there was such a character, my ability to relate to them would probably depend on tons of factors unrelated to sexuality as well, but I still appreciate diversity where I can find it.
Still, the asexual community has an incredible way of segmenting itself, so I could see some people wanting to see every "type" of asexual under the sun get represented one way or another. (Believe it or not, I'm technically a minority within the asexual community for not being just as disinterested in romance as I am with sex, and romantic preference really creates some huge differences in experiences. Most of the time you see PSA-style asexual characters, they usually are the sort that want romance. No shocker because it's instant relationship drama in a narrative, but I guess that's all the more reason why I can't relate. I don't mind not totally relating, but yet again, they just take the most common situations and make the same boring tropes of their own. Oh, an asexual in a romantic relationship with someone who really likes sex? Let me guess, there's going to be fighting about it, "you don't really love me if you won't have sex with me" and "you only want me for my body" guilt trips, attempts at compromise, with the characters either making it work or going separate ways. I could go into way more details, but my responses do have a way of getting long and it's already long enough as is. I'd apologize for my rambling, but I assume that'd be rude after you asked me not to apologize for the length of my last response.)
As a gay man. I couldnt care less, don't see how a dude wanting to take it up the butt makes much difference to anything.
But then I am an oddity, I have never desired "representation" or wanted to see myself in anything.
But then I am an oddity, I have never desired "representation" or wanted to see myself in anything.
Oh well then, that's your thing then.grassgremlin said:
Not sure what to make of it.
It's good to re-frame this discussion anyhow, I may have knee-jerked a little to hard, (my nose is still bleeding).
I meant that if we want flushed out chars.
Or even the framed discussion.
Dude, honestly speaking when does you are gay enter into conversation in your daily life, I'd hazard very rarely because your sexuality really shouldn't come up that often.
I could understand want to play someone also gay but if you want open and outside of a rpg I have to ask how can it really enter into conversation?
Why would it matter a lot of the the time that a person in a life or death situation.
My reasoning is that a game that would be relevant would need to make it matter thematically or in the story itself.
I may have done a piss poor job at explaining that assumption but that's par for the course with me anyway.
Nor does it make my previous post any less stupid.
You can have any damn thing you want but you have to either make it yourself or some how change the perspective of the AAA lowest common denominator or target audience or whatever.
It's a dnd 3.5e thing, you can do everything if you know how to do it.
Personally I don't care, game chars are game chars, we have the most diverse cast of chars compared to any medium, chars will come, chars will go but only good design, writing and game play survives the test of time.
Relationships, on the other hand, come up very frequently, both IRL and in media and art. Wanting gay characters doesn't necessarily mean wanting the sexuality itself to be a major theme.cleric of the order said:
(...Though I'm not averse to games exploring sexuality as a theme, either).
Out of interest, why do you believe this?cleric of the order said:
I'd have thought literature was more likely to hold that crown.
I'm all for LGBT content in games (or just an outright LGBT game). I think it's fantastic to see a gay character in a game, and I really enjoyed Gone Home (Much of the stories in the game hit a little too close to home for me not to enjoy it). LGBT games/content can be done well, and it's always great to see oneself included in a game. Plus it gives others the chance to experience something new and empathize more with LGBT people.
With that said, sexuality is part of the human experience, while I think it ought to be explored, I don't want it to be the be-all, end-all of games. Let games help us to explore multiple aspects of what it means to be human.
With that said, sexuality is part of the human experience, while I think it ought to be explored, I don't want it to be the be-all, end-all of games. Let games help us to explore multiple aspects of what it means to be human.
Again this seems to be one of my assumptions or at least in discrepancy, a sexual/romantic relationship, belies the nature of a persons sexuality in my eyes.Silvanus said:
So what I have to carry though is the same thing, you would need to expose the inner workings of you life to display that relationship and often games do not do that, less so now in the modern ape film era.
Gaming is about action, and often in the events that transpire in those actions you don't reveal the intimate lives of the characters in question.
That doesn't mean it doesn't exist nor does it mean it matters.
I have to sometimes remember that as much as we all know Mario, none of us actually does know what he is outside of his games. WE know him, what he is made of because we have shared his struggles but not what side of the coin he flips if you get my meaning.
And we shouldn't same with samus.
Or any other char, we are there to work with them.
But that might just be the SB swords and sorcery repeating on me again.
Yeah, if you want it often you are in for the whole pound, you have to explain the necessarily in this person is gay or else it sticks out like a sore thumb.
I think there was a writers rule of never adding things a that are not important to the plot and insofar, sexual preference is largely irrelevant.
I hate how utilitarian that statement it is I suppose reasonable until someone can slap me out of my tired state. frankly I think I should spirit myself to bed after this.
Also to your last statement, Neither am I.
[/quote]Silvanus said:
We'd have to grab a universal census to be sure but I have to say I believe it because video games have had so many different beings.
Not race, creed or gender (which it has done all), but creature, idea and design.
It's the gift of being a visual and not wholly narrative driven medium and while I love my writing it does not have the escapism gaming does either.
So writing will often find itself with more flushed out chars' and gaming more diverse either all number of creatures and concepts taking the stage.
It's also good to remember in literature one may not need a chars at all or even describe them that far, I'll never forget finding out that "croaker" of the black company was a 6' something guy that looked like a sexual predator, that was weird, how did glen manage 6+ books without mentioning it?
better yet of that gaming is a new medium, vibrant with early expression and chaotic self indulgence.
Although I do think the nes - 64 era was the best one to be gaming in as a child.
And this current generation does not have the wit and pluck of the earlier ages, like a fat old walrus trying to forget Lessons learned from John Romario.
Truth is I'm just throwing science at the wall to see what sticks, Man i need to go to bed.
Also I may have consumed more games then novels and other forms of literature or the course of my life, shame I know.
I can gut a omnibus in less then a month but I can play a game in a weekend.