Three Examples of Female Characters Archetypes That Go Unexplored-

Someone Depressing

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-for the worse.

Female characters are a hot topic right now; in both the video game community and outside of it, it's spread immensely from some woman with amazing earrings (don't deny it.) rambling for a few minutes every week about under-representation of women in video games and some forms of media, to..

Well, the entire Internet. I think the Wikipedia page for "Gamergate", or the Anita Sarkeesian controversy, are now longer than the History of Yarn page, which is quite an accomplishment. Maybe. And at the core of this ridiculous maelstrom there exists one problem: female characters. In general, not just pertaining to games.

Everywhere you look, you see those amazing earrings. Within their curved, beautiful contours, you see the abyss.

It seems like everyone who isn't part of Gamergate, against Gamergate, or is forming their own group has been living under a rock, or have never played video games, or gone onto any video games journalism sights, for the past few years.

And as such, I feel that it's only fair for me to subject you all to my views on the subject of "good" female characters in recent fiction, not just video games. It's become something of a hard subject to talk about, and one must tiptoe carefully around "political correctness" or "sexism" in these sort of discussions.

But here, I just want to spark a discussion about female characters we love, from action girls to distressed damsels, from sexy to not sexy, and perhaps to learn what we love about these characters could be applicable to learning how to write better female characters in the future.

Or something.

So here they are, in no particular order.

[HEADING=2]#1 Dubois, from Madagascar 3[/HEADING]


This piece of crap intelligent, welcoming discussion was created mostly in response to my opinion of Dubois's character. Say what you will about Madagascar, Pixar at large, or even animation as a whole, but Dubois is pretty damn awesome.

One thing I hate with western animation (animuu is not exempt from this) is that its female characters tend to have bland, wooden, dead expressions. I can think of less aversions to this rule than I can think unironic portrayals. I'm reminded of a rather unfortunate quote by a Disney animator a few months back regarding the limited animation of Anna and Elsa's faces of Frozen, as well as why they look, sort of, fucking identical.


?Historically speaking, animating female characters are really, really difficult, because they have to go through these range of emotions, but you have to keep them pretty and they?re very sensitive to ? you can get them off a model very quickly. So, having a film with two hero female characters was really tough, and having them both in the scene and look very different if they?re echoing the same expression; that Elsa looking angry looks different from Anna being angry.?

-From Cartoonbrew.com

In other words, if we actually use squash and stretch, facial animation, and dare let the audience see their laugh lines, then they're automatically ugly, and women can't be ugly. This quote makes me cringe. So. Much.

As you can see, Dubois doesn't follow "how to animate female characters", or at least what this animator learned. Her facial expressions are incredibly vibrant, she's not... "pretty" (maybe) and best of all, she's a cartoon.

Her body is cartoonish. Her face is cartoonish. She noticeably breaks, just like the rest of the characters, for sake of expression and emotive movement, and completely averts the tiny-mouthed, huge-eyed, massive-cranium baby face that Disney immediately goes for when drawing a girl who's pretty, cute, and really really boring.

The only exceptions to this rule in Disney's canon I can think of are Jane from Tarzan, Esmerelda from The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Nani from Lilo and Stitch, none of whom were rendered in Disney's go-to style.

It's also undeniable that she's really badass. If wrestling a lion while falling from several hundred meters from the sky while trying to saw its head off with your make-up running (im so sorry) doesn't make you a total badass, then nothing will. She's stoic, badass, reminds me of Edith Piaf - which is more than enough to qualify for this list - and arguably the best part of her entire movie.

[HEADING=2]#2 Taarna, from Heavy Metal[/HEADING]


This one might seem odd, especially considering the last entry. After all, Heavy Metal is remembered for boobs and gore. But Taarna is cool.

Taarna is from the last part of Heavy Metal. The bit that I don't remember. Well, I don't remember any of Heavy Metal; just a rotoscoped car, some amazing chins, and boobs. Lots of boobs.

Anyway, she turns out to be the little girl who is also the walking narrative device (who she shares a joint place with, by virtue of. Sort of being the, ugh, same) from the start, who ends up destroying the Big Bad other narrative device with the power of awesome, or sex appeal, or a burning house, or something. And then she gets on her Griffon-bug thing, and flies away to commit more good deeds across the cosmos, or something.

Heavy Metal is really stupid.

Out of Taarna's segment - which is when the movie's otherwise gorgeous animation finally tapers its last cough of bloody lung chunks - she is the most interesting part of it. She never says a word. She never talks directly to anybody. But she's always got a stern, determined, amazing expression on her face, even while mowing down crowds of alien dickheads. You can tell just by her face, her walk, everything about her, that she was specifically designed to be a woman with a mission.

They nailed it. This is a pretty bad movie, but Taarna is the one thing they really, really got right.

And that is why Taarna is awesome, even if she comes from a stripperific wank-fest. Namely, Heavy Metal.

[HEADING=2]#3 Rose Lalonde, from Homestuck[/HEADING]

So, Homestuck. It exists. That's pretty undeniable.

What is it? What's it about? Where can I find it? How much for a gram? Will the mystery ever be torn of its gambit accoutrement, and the truth finally ascertained? Or will this metaphor just get longer and longer and less and less funny?

Yes.

If you don't know what Homestuck is, um, go knock yourself out. Just try to ignore all the gore and porn while you find the website's link.

No, onto the whatever.

It's hard to say who my favourite character from Homestuck is, let alone my favoured character of a female persausion. So I'm just going to get it over with and say they all sort of suck equally. Or are awesome equally. Pardon me while I get my flameshield. Then again, for whatever reason, I imagine that his is the kind of forum that would condemn Homestuck to the Hell from whence it came, so I'll get this over with.

In Homestuck, Rose's arc revolves around her unwillingness to become a pawn; she doesn't know what she's trying to avert her becoming a pawn of, but she would rather be a long wolf than become whatever it is she doesn't want to become. It's also about the POWER OF FRIENDSHIP or something.

And then she disappears for a few hundred pages, and comes back a writhing pot seeping with uncontrollable rage.

And also her girlfriend is a vampire. Because lesbian vampires.[/spoilers]

It starts getting weird pretty early on, and frankly, I don't even want to start decoding the gargantuan mess that is Homestuck's plot. You can do that yourself.

The reason why I like Rose out of the four like, a million main characters is that I simply find her the most interesting. Like Dubois and Taarna, she's incredibly badass, and is one of the more violence-attuned characters in the story, though she doesn't really advance the plot too much. She mostly stays by the sidelines, not doing much, and only getting down to the dirty when she needs to.

So, without getting involved in the massive, fleshy, teratomous tumour on the Internet that is Homestuck, I'm just going to say that is my favourite character, is awesome both as a character, female character, and a "badass gritty "cool" girl" character, and actually does stuff in the story.

Runner-ups:

Tank Girl of... Tank Girl, for obvious reasons
Rose's Mom, in all of her alcoholic glory
Parasoul of Skullgirls
Casca of Berserk
 

Tanis

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Casca from Berserk, seriously?

A 'women living in a man's world' with a 'hates men, because almost raped as a child after being sold by her parents'.

Plus, you know, being raped by her former boss/best friend and then getting all broken and turning into a borderline vegetable?

I'm not sure some 'archetypes' SHOULD be explored sometimes.
 

lucky_sharm

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Wanna know what really goes unexplored?

Just a normal girl thrust into a bad situation. You know, someone that has a sense of humor, smiles, gets annoyed, irritated, sarcastic, you know just someone that shows a variety of emotions beyond smoldering angst and grim determination.

Oh yeah, you also don't see many girls that show an active interest in guys while at the same not the primary love interest of another more important character. A girl that's charming and flirty while still have her own mission and goals is what I'm saying.
 

SUPA FRANKY

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Tanis said:
Casca from Berserk, seriously?

A 'women living in a man's world' with a 'hates men, because almost raped as a child after being sold by her parents'.

Plus, you know, being raped by her former boss/best friend and then getting all broken and turning into a borderline vegetable?

I'm not sure some 'archetypes' SHOULD be explored sometimes.
You do realize that God in that series is the literal personification of evil right? Shit doesn't really go well for anyone.

Anyway female characters I like

Toph Beifong from Avatar
Vilja from the Oblivion mod
Ryuko from Kill la Kill
Jolyne Kujo from Jojo's Bizarre re
Terra from Teen Titanson.

plenty more, but all I feel like saying.

I don't like them because they are female too. I'd like them if they were male or any other variation.
 

renegade7

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I want to see a female character who is just really a type-A introverted sort. The problem is that every single time that kind of character appears in fiction, it's in the context of a shitty romcom where somehow being career-oriented is a pathology and your life is broken until a man shows up and she wises up and gets married. Honestly, I think I could stand to see a few male characters in similar roles as well.

Don't obsess over getting the guy/girl. In real life, we have words for people who prioritize dating relationships over their ambitions: dropouts. Failures. Pregnant at 19. You get the picture.

And moreover, I don't want it to be some Oscar-bait crap about struggling with sexism in a male-dominated career/society/whatever. I don't mean that I want to see the discussion of cultural sexism trivialized, just that not everything needs to be political and social commentary. Really, I want to see more Samus Aran kind of characters (disregarding Other M).

Second, it would be nice to have a lesbian protagonist in a movie that isn't exclusively about how she's a lesbian. I think it's time to just start having homosexual characters that are just normal people with normal problems (obviously in the context of whatever fictional universe they're in) without their homosexuality being the entire premise of the plot.

Third, Toph Beifong. Female characters can indeed be action badasses without being sexy ninja chicks in tight latex catsuits. Not only that, she was a truly unique character, probably more so than anyone else in that show. Characters who are genuinely cool and compelling and aren't hung up on the fact of their gender.
 

Vault101

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lucky_sharm said:
Just a normal girl thrust into a bad situation. You know, someone that has a sense of humor, smiles, gets annoyed, irritated, sarcastic, you know just someone that shows a variety of emotions beyond smoldering angst and grim determination.
ng.
[sub/]another reason I like DA:I is that Femquisitor can actually have a sense of humour[/sub]

aaaaanyway

in a lot of action-orientated genre fic (which also applys to games down to a tee) there's this tendencey to not allow feamel charachter to have flaws

*actual* flaws, not flaws as a result of shitty writing

and notice when they DO have flaws they're related to being surly or angry? (I'm not complaining as anything can be handled well)

we don't often get the female equivalent of the "funny/incompetent"
 

Veylon

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renegade7 said:
And moreover, I don't want it to be some Oscar-bait crap about struggling with sexism in a male-dominated career/society/whatever. I don't mean that I want to see the discussion of cultural sexism trivialized, just that not everything needs to be political and social commentary. Really, I want to see more Samus Aran kind of characters (disregarding Other M).
I had Samus pegged as a kind of Han Solo-ish character who enjoys the ambiguity and lawlessness associated with bounty hunting and the frontier of space.

renegade7 said:
Second, it would be nice to have a lesbian protagonist in a movie that isn't exclusively about how she's a lesbian. I think it's time to just start having homosexual characters that are just normal people with normal problems (obviously in the context of whatever fictional universe they're in) without their homosexuality being the entire premise of the plot.
This is a problem with female main characters in general. And, I guess, anyone not "normal". The story has to spend half it's run time convincing itself that someone like this can actually do stuff and that people who don't like that sort of thing and are jersk about it are awful. I'd love to see more works that simply take for granted that - in the imaginably near future - everyone is going to accept and be okay with whatever characteristic that's currently a stumbling block due to bigots. That Our Hero who we're meant to identify with can indeed be gay or female or black (or all three!) and it won't matter at all even to the villains.
 

lucky_sharm

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Gah, what I meant to say was "unexplored". Dang it.

But yeah, you hardly see any kind of "everywoman" protagonists. As over the top as Bayonetta is, she's still an improvement over the stark and gritty action protags we usually get.
 

Phasmal

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You know, every now and then one of these threads comes up and to be honest I was just waiting for the next one so I can talk about:


You don't see much of Cassandra in DA2 so I had very limited expectations based on what she was like in that. I was not expecting to completely love her as a character, but I totally do.
I think what I love most about her is that they so easily could have made her into the typical `Strong warrior woman who is really super ladylike inside`, but I don't get that feeling from her. Cassandra has insecurities and a `softer side`, but that doesn't change who she is. She is pretty blunt and tough and she's got eyes like she could kill you with them and I love her so much I can't even describe it properly.

So yes. More like Cassandra, she's fucking brilliant.
 

Queen Michael

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Someone Depressing said:
And also her girlfriend is a vampire. Because lesbian vampires.
Fixed that for you. In your original post, the spoiler tag doesn't work.
 

Zipa

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Phasmal said:
You know, every now and then one of these threads comes up and to be honest I was just waiting for the next one so I can talk about:


You don't see much of Cassandra in DA2 so I had very limited expectations based on what she was like in that. I was not expecting to completely love her as a character, but I totally do.
I think what I love most about her is that they so easily could have made her into the typical `Strong warrior woman who is really super ladylike inside`, but I don't get that feeling from her. Cassandra has insecurities and a `softer side`, but that doesn't change who she is. She is pretty blunt and tough and she's got eyes like she could kill you with them and I love her so much I can't even describe it properly.

So yes. More like Cassandra, she's fucking brilliant.

Id throw in another vote for Cassandra, recently I was playing DA:I and there was a character moment between her and Varric and I was laughing my butt off through it, it was brilliantly written and fitted Cassandra perfectly. I won't spoil it here though in case people haven't got to it yet.
 

Lilani

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I wish there were more characters like Doctor Chakwas in Mass Effect. She's tough, but not uncaring or brusque. She's motherly, but she's not a mother. She's unmarried, but doesn't despise men or the idea of marriage. She just chose to live her life in the Alliance aboard spaceships rather than settling down somewhere.

Fiction tends to send women to the extremes when it comes to marriage and children. They either want children and to get married REALLY badly, or they REALLY want to stay the hell away from children and marriage. You can never have a woman who's at peace with her decision to not marry or not have children, it's got to be some huge defining conflict in their life. And the decision to not get married or have children is always born of some kind of hatred or fear, whether it be the fear of commitment or a hatred of domesticity. But Doctor Chakwas didn't make her decision out of fear. She saw many options for her life, and she chose to dedicate herself to the Alliance. And she doesn't regret it. It was a practical decision made for the sake of her ambitions and happiness, not an emotional decision made for the sake of some internal conflict or fear.
 

Twintix

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OK, since this seems to be the right thread where I can voice this opinion...

Can we have a tomboyish female in media whose main character trait is not being a massive asshole?

Granted, I mostly see this one in manga and anime, which I guess might say some things about how Japanese people view masculinity and femininity, but really, I've seen this far too many times. Some people seem to think that "Tomboy = Jerk", as if being vocal and rude is solely a masculine character trait.

"How do we establish that this girl isn't stereotypically girly?"
"Well, in her first appearance, have her cuss out our male lead for no apparent reason."

And sometimes, these characters get nicer once they've embraced their feminine side. Like, fucking hell, being nice isn't about being feminine, it's about being a decent fucking human being.

The only character in my memory (As in, that I can think of; I'm sure that there are more examples) that doesn't comform to this formula is Sera Masumi from Detective Conan. She's masculine to the point where she's often mistaken for a boy when she's not wearing her school uniform. However, she's neither foul-mouthed nor rude: She's easy-going, very friendly and almost always smiling. She's managed to ease her way onto my list of favorite characters.
(That she's a skilled martial artist is merely a bonus; Seeing as the feminine Ran Mori is one of the strongest characters in the series, this has nothing to do with her masculinity)
 

Dizchu

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I liked the intentions behind Lara Croft in Tomb Raider 2013. I think she turned out a little too humourless and was basically begging the audience to take her seriously.

However... she's a female character that is neither a helpless damsel or a full-on femme fatale (like her previous incarnations). She's just a tough girl trying to use her wits and resourcefulness to survive and rescue her friends. In fact, I don't even know of many male characters that have a similar kind of balance between vulnerability and capability. Of course, the balance isn't perfect. I wouldn't even say it's particularly great but at least it's there.

I found her interesting because for decades one of the most "attractive" features of player characters was empowerment. Even 90s Lara exhibited some kind of superhuman athleticism.

For contrast, look at Samus from Other M. There's the same idea of adding vulnerability and nuance to a character that's widely considered the ultimate badass. But they messed it up completely by focusing on disempowerment rather than vulnerability.

-

By the way my favourite female character at the moment is April Ryan from The Longest Journey. It's refreshing to see a character written with so much confidence on the part of the writer. She's clever, witty, resourceful but also kinda naive and fragile. She also has a certain innocence that isn't reliant on the whole "precious little virginal princess" trope. She's essentially a real person, the mundaneness of her life is explored in the game.
 

Pete Oddly

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One character I really liked was Olivia Dunham from Fringe. She was the perfect example of a tough, capable badass who wasn't just a male character with a vagina. Best of all, they weren't afraid to give her a character trait which wasn't way-out-there just to make her more rounded (looking at you, Bones): Olivia Dunham was dull.

Seriously, she wasn't a killjoy, or over serious, or grim (she did have a sense of humour and enjoyed a nice drink and some time off if she could get it) she was just kinda...boring. Regular. She was coffee with one sugar in a world full of espresso lattes. She was down-to-Earth in a way that didn't make her cynical or smugly dismissive, and for that I loved her character.

Also; I have to mention that Ellie from The Last of Us and Clementine from The Walking Dead are two of the best female characters ever written, but most of you probably already knew that.
 

deathbydeath

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I'd like to see more lady characters like Fall-From-Grace (Planescape: Torment). Then again there are a lot of characters similar to her, because the whole point of FFG was that she is a common archetype with an uncommon interpretation.

Also more characters like Wryn (Bleed) = good thing.

Pete Oddly said:
Clementine from The Walking Dead are two of the best female characters ever written, but most of you probably already knew that.
Eh, not really. Clem's purpose in the story isn't to be a character as much as a moral arbiter sitting on the player's shoulder to create some self-awareness. She does her job well, but as far as traditional metrics for characters go she's nothing special. (That's based on the first season; I only played E1 of S2 and can't be arsed to play any more because it was unbearably dense).
 

Pete Oddly

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deathbydeath said:
Pete Oddly said:
Clementine from The Walking Dead are two of the best female characters ever written, but most of you probably already knew that.
Eh, not really. Clem's purpose in the story isn't to be a character as much as a moral arbiter sitting on the player's shoulder to create some self-awareness. She does her job well, but as far as traditional metrics for characters go she's nothing special. (That's based on the first season; I only played E1 of S2 and can't be arsed to play any more because it was unbearably dense).
Season 2 is what I'm talking about. Even though you dictate her character's arc, no matter which arc you carry her down she is a well realized, well written character. And even though she partially existed to drive the player's morality in season 1, she still had character.
 

Dr. Crawver

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Lilani said:
I wish there were more characters like Doctor Chakwas in Mass Effect. She's tough, but not uncaring or brusque. She's motherly, but she's not a mother. She's unmarried, but doesn't despise men or the idea of marriage. She just chose to live her life in the Alliance aboard spaceships rather than settling down somewhere.

Fiction tends to send women to the extremes when it comes to marriage and children. They either want children and to get married REALLY badly, or they REALLY want to stay the hell away from children and marriage. You can never have a woman who's at peace with her decision to not marry or not have children, it's got to be some huge defining conflict in their life. And the decision to not get married or have children is always born of some kind of hatred or fear, whether it be the fear of commitment or a hatred of domesticity. But Doctor Chakwas didn't make her decision out of fear. She saw many options for her life, and she chose to dedicate herself to the Alliance. And she doesn't regret it. It was a practical decision made for the sake of her ambitions and happiness, not an emotional decision made for the sake of some internal conflict or fear.
She's never one that comes to mind with these topics, but now that you mention it, you're absolutely right. Dr chocolates is a really good example of a female character done well, even if she doesn't turn up for that long. She actually reminds me a lot of one of my mums friends, who chose never to marry and instead focus on her career that made her happy.
 

Thaluikhain

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Twintix said:
OK, since this seems to be the right thread where I can voice this opinion...

Can we have a tomboyish female in media whose main character trait is not being a massive asshole?
If the character rejects all things feminine, and it's feminine to not randomly attack everyone you meet, well...
 

lucky_sharm

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thaluikhain said:
Twintix said:
OK, since this seems to be the right thread where I can voice this opinion...

Can we have a tomboyish female in media whose main character trait is not being a massive asshole?
If the character rejects all things feminine, and it's feminine to not randomly attack everyone you meet, well...
Not randomly attacking everyone you meet isn't a trait exclusive to men. >_>