TIBET: A case study in bigotry

[goodman528]

We've all met our fair share of Sony Plastation and X-Box Halo fanboys, who just refuse to look at the facts, and insist on their point of view being the ONLY correct way of thinking. (Such as the eternal wait for FFXIII; or automatic health regeneration in Halo). Now, it seems to me this kind of Fanboyism is even worse in real life, and none more so than in politics. Since the subject of Tibet interests me a lot, I will use it as the discussion point here:

Spoiler: A bit of background if you want it:

A bit of history
Tibet was unified as a political entity in the 7th century. In the 13th century the Mongols conquered most of Asia, including all of the land that's now controlled by PR China (i.e. including Tibet). Then, for the next 600+ years, the Chinese dynasties and the Repulican government has included Tibet as part of their territory. Due the extreme remoteness, stratigic insignificance, and relative poverty of Tibet in this era; the amount of power, and the nature of the power exercised by the Beijing government in Tibet is a point of debate.

i.e. if you were the emperor and had a few hundred wives, then you wouldn't give a damn about whether some piece of autonomously governed rock is in theory part of your kingdom or not. As long as they don't declare war on you, all is fine.

A bit of culture
Tibet does have a different language / religion / culture / etc to other provinces in China. HOWEVER, most Chinese provinces also have a different verbal language / gods and traditions / culture / etc to most other provinces in China.

MY POINT

I'm Chinese / British, i.e. I identify with both. I'm interested in reading about Tibet, because it seems like a fascinating fantasy world. But, recently my Chinese friends noticed the books on my shelf, and they were extremely angry with me. They seem to think that anybody who:

1) Criticises the Communist Party.

and 2) Reads up on anything about Tibet / Taiwan / Tian'an'men '89 / Cultural revolution / etc, and tries to form some sort of informed opinion on the matter, instead of blindly supporting everything the Communist party says.

and 3) Prefers a democratic system to a totalitarianist state.

...is a traitor. In my Chinese circle, anyone who does NOT mindlessly follow the Communist party is seen as a traitor, and a lot of the time this includes me. {This has it's parallels in America too, when anyone who doesn't support the Iraq war was Unpatriotic. Anyone who doesn't support those anti-terrorist laws must be terrorist sympathisers. I believe even Atheists are seen as unpatriotic in America.}

My Chinese friends totally believe that "Tibet was, is, and always will be part of China.", despite having never read anything about Tibetan history or culture, and having never been to Tibet, or met a Tibetan in real life. They would also go out and wave red flags and shout down Tibetan demonstrators, if they get bored enough. Now, not only do they not have any information to base their views on, they are also telling me to stop reading anything about Tibet not written by the Communist party, and support the party's views. This reminds me of Orwell's 1984.

The interesting thing is, it's not unlikely that the other side of this argument, i.e. the people waving those Tibetan flags, are also equally blinded by bigotry. Because in the west the most popular books and films on Tibet are also very biased, sometimes even more so than official Chinese published books. And then there are the hippies who goes and waves the Tibetan flags, probably not knowing anything about the oppression of the feudal Tibetan system before 1950. So they mistakingly believe somehow Tibetan independence is a symbol of freedom.

Is ignorance bliss? Then at least you are not hated by both sides.

 

[meatloaf231]

Huh. It looks like even world politics is full of fanboys.

 

[RebelRising]

Huh. It looks like even world politics is full of fanboys.

Politics are defined by fanboyism.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Patriotism is bigoted, and completely anti-progress. Take pride in holding yourself above it, and actually trying to understand things beyond what you are told to think.
When you put it in parallel with console fanboyism, you might start to wonder when the first console incited genocide will occur.

 

[fix-the-spade]

China is a totalitarian state, it'll end in mass bloodshed like they all do.

 

[Tattaglia]

Try watching the O'Reilly Factor for more than ten minutes... then try to convince yourself there is no political bias.

Raaagh! Left-wing media is a failure! Liberals hate everything! Obama ran over my child-eating pitbull! No spin zone!! NO SPIN ZONE!

 

[RufusMcLaser]

What you're describing echoes what I've heard from others. Friends who've had similar discussions with Chinese nationals (exchange students, etc) had similar stories: strong devotion to the government, no tolerance for dissent. I imagine most of them were from the metropolitan parts of China, rather than the agrarian inland, but that's just a guess. Any thoughts?

{This has it's parallels in America too, when anyone who doesn't support the Iraq war was Unpatriotic. Anyone who doesn't support those anti-terrorist laws must be terrorist sympathisers. I believe even Atheists are seen as unpatriotic in America.}

Good lord, is this what everyone else thinks it's like in the States? There may be people who think in this manner, but they're a vanishingly small minority. I'm exposed to as much news media as most Americans, and I can't imagine where this impression comes from because there's a lot of debate and discussion.
Atheists unpatriotic? Maybe in tiny little towns in the Bible Belt [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Belt]. I've lived all over the U.S. and never heard anything of the sort.

 

[Undead Dragon King]

I'm from central PA,USA and according to the white folks 'round here, if you don't serve in the military or marry a military man, you're a terrorist. If you don't go to the Catholic church, you're a sinner and the worst person alive. If you're not white, you're a thief and a liar. If you're friendly and polite to strangers, you're a pedophile and a rapist.

I really, really dislike the people around here.

The irony of this statement is almost too much to bear.

Way to prove your own point.

 

[vede]

What you're describing echoes what I've heard from others. Friends who've had similar discussions with Chinese nationals (exchange students, etc) had similar stories: strong devotion to the government, no tolerance for dissent. I imagine most of them were from the metropolitan parts of China, rather than the agrarian inland, but that's just a guess. Any thoughts?

{This has it's parallels in America too, when anyone who doesn't support the Iraq war was Unpatriotic. Anyone who doesn't support those anti-terrorist laws must be terrorist sympathisers. I believe even Atheists are seen as unpatriotic in America.}

Good lord, is this what everyone else thinks it's like in the States? There may be people who think in this manner, but they're a vanishingly small minority. I'm exposed to as much news media as most Americans, and I can't imagine where this impression comes from because there's a lot of debate and discussion.
Atheists unpatriotic? Maybe in tiny little towns in the Bible Belt [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Belt]. I've lived all over the U.S. and never heard anything of the sort.

That's what some people think it's like in the United States, who live in the United States! Namely, me...

I live just a half hour's drive from Tulsa, the second largest city in the state, and there's people here who are willing to physically attack atheists, and shout that "America shouldn't be run by niggers," and there's quite a few who seriously think only terrorists would be against the war in Iraq. And that Muslim==terrorist. It might be a vanishingly small minority where you are, but in quite a few places, it's really bad.

 

[TwistedEllipses]

I've got a housemate who's a student from Southern China and he was complaining about the fact that his politics lessons in middle school were just basically China's communist party fanboyism.

I can see too the other side's fanboyism and it sort of annoyed me with the protests around the Olympics and the lack of separation between sport and politics there.

 

[electric discordian]

Im guessing your friends are standing in your house criticising your bookshelf, simply point out that your house is your soverign soil and that their critical views are disent throw them out. Get new more liberal friends!

Politics is a horrible thing to think about it destroys families and harms all involed except the super corrupt who know how to work it, it still makes me laugh that my friends can laugh at religious people fighting for their gods and yet be prepared to die for a idea of nationhood that was last relavent around the time of the Boer war.

 

[blindey]

Historically, for the last few centuries, up until 1914 or 1917 I think, Tibet was part of China. Even when it gained its independence the Dalai Lama at the time continued to say they were a Chinese province. It's a very confusing issue, I've done a report for a Cold War studies class on it. The way I figure it, the Chinese running the Tibetan Autonomous Zone or whatever it's called are repressive, and the Dalai Lama would ironically be pretty repressive if he went back into power(a monarchy, no rights for women, aristocratic system, etc.). Personally, I'm all for democratic change in Tibet, but I really don't want the Dalai Lama taking over again.

Penn Jillete did a thing on his show Bullshit! about the Dalai Lama. He was basically like: Say what you will about Communism (and we have), but when the Chinese came they had such things as I dunno...RUNNING WATER, ELECTRICITY, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYEOSCIOnrs

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Patriotism is bigoted, and completely anti-progress.

It amazes me how words have different meanings in different parts of the world. It must be a little sad to hate your country, but I understand you a bit, beign an American patriot these days doesn't look too good.

Origin is a fluke, you can be thankful sure. But pride in being born where you were is something that is hard for me to understand. In my eyes, patriotism isn't a huge leap away from nationalism.

 

[blindey]

That's just it SHP (awesome name btw). Having pride in your country and such is ok. It's a big step from nationalism, though as you say they are on the same spectrum so to speak. Patriotism is just that, pride. Nothing more complicated than that: Not supporting a war or even a current president. Nationalism is a rampant fervor of a country above all else, as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#Extremism

 

[TheBlueRabbit]

I'm from central PA,USA and according to the white folks 'round here, if you don't serve in the military or marry a military man, you're a terrorist. If you don't go to the Catholic church, you're a sinner and the worst person alive. If you're not white, you're a thief and a liar. If you're friendly and polite to strangers, you're a pedophile and a rapist.

I really, really dislike the people around here.

Ah, the joys and wonders of Pennsyltucky.

Wait....when did Pennsylvania move to Arkansas?

 

[EXPLICITasian]

I somehow feel everything that happens in china affects me... probably just because everyone thinks I'm chinese anyway, therefore anything China does instantly gets all the white people in my school mad at me somehow... everyone is bigoted in some way, your chinese friends (for what you said) white people, black people, brownish people, tannish people, orangy people... And of course people who "hold themselves above" bigotry and hate racism (because they're ignorant to ignorant people

So I guess what I'm saying is don't let what your friends say get to you, cause everyone is an asshole.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

That's just it SHP (awesome name btw). Having pride in your country and such is ok. It's a big step from nationalism, though as you say they are on the same spectrum so to speak. Patriotism is just that, pride. Nothing more complicated than that: Not supporting a war or even a current president. Nationalism is a rampant fervor of a country above all else, as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#Extremism

I'm sure pride of country can manifest itself in harmless forms. But I am of the opinion that pride should be reserved for personal achievement, or at least something you were involved in...not just being lucky. Patriotism may not be solely for the nationalists, but they are certainly the ones waving the flag in my country...whilst preaching race hate and ethnic cleansing as viable solutions to certain issues.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Patriotism is bigoted, and completely anti-progress.

It amazes me how words have different meanings in different parts of the world. It must be a little sad to hate your country, but I understand you a bit, beign an American patriot these days doesn't look too good.

Origin is a fluke, you can be thankful sure. But pride in being born where you were is something that is hard for me to understand. In my eyes, patriotism isn't a huge leap away from nationalism.

There is a very clear difference between nationalism and patriotism. A patriot like myslef is not saying that his country or nation is better than any other. A patriot acknowledges the fact that his nationality is a big part of his personality and is content with the culture that has influenced him. He doesn't see his country as flawless, he just sees that there are enough good things about it to love it. A patriot is proud of his heritage, but he realizes that people of other nationalities have also a lot to be proud about.

I know the concept of inherited culture and tradition must be easier to grasp for Europeans than Americans or Australians, but you shouldn't say you're not a patriot just because you think that means you voted for Bush or something.

I don't, and I'm English so Bush wasn't even an option. I never claimed to hate my country, far from. But my issue is just with the line of thinking, pride and devotion to culture that you inherited...is that not why we have suicide bombers in this world? Is that not why religions despise eachother? What if your country is commiting horrible atrocities?...are you still loyal? History says that you are, and that can only be a bad thing. I think the notion being lost entirely would do the world alot of good...but that's just me.

 

[SilentHunter7]

I'm from central PA,USA and according to the white folks 'round here, if you don't serve in the military or marry a military man, you're a terrorist. If you don't go to the Catholic church, you're a sinner and the worst person alive. If you're not white, you're a thief and a liar. If you're friendly and polite to strangers, you're a pedophile and a rapist.

I really, really dislike the people around here.

Ah, the joys and wonders of Pennsyltucky.

That's only central PA. You go the east and west areas, like Scranton, where I live, it's much more liberal. Actually, I should say, it's much more Democrat. People here aren't liberal or conservative. 90% of them vote straight Democrat, just because. They have no opinions.

 

[JWAN]

We've all met our fair share of Sony Plastation and X-Box Halo fanboys, who just refuse to look at the facts, and insist on their point of view being the ONLY correct way of thinking. (Such as the eternal wait for FFXIII; or automatic health regeneration in Halo). Now, it seems to me this kind of Fanboyism is even worse in real life, and none more so than in politics. Since the subject of Tibet interests me a lot, I will use it as the discussion point here:

Spoiler: A bit of background if you want it:

A bit of history
Tibet was unified as a political entity in the 7th century. In the 13th century the Mongols conquered most of Asia, including all of the land that's now controlled by PR China (i.e. including Tibet). Then, for the next 600+ years, the Chinese dynasties and the Repulican government has included Tibet as part of their territory. Due the extreme remoteness, stratigic insignificance, and relative poverty of Tibet in this era; the amount of power, and the nature of the power exercised by the Beijing government in Tibet is a point of debate.

i.e. if you were the emperor and had a few hundred wives, then you wouldn't give a damn about whether some piece of autonomously governed rock is in theory part of your kingdom or not. As long as they don't declare war on you, all is fine.

A bit of culture
Tibet does have a different language / religion / culture / etc to other provinces in China. HOWEVER, most Chinese provinces also have a different verbal language / gods and traditions / culture / etc to most other provinces in China.

MY POINT

I'm Chinese / British, i.e. I identify with both. I'm interested in reading about Tibet, because it seems like a fascinating fantasy world. But, recently my Chinese friends noticed the books on my shelf, and they were extremely angry with me. They seem to think that anybody who:

1) Criticises the Communist Party.

and 2) Reads up on anything about Tibet / Taiwan / Tian'an'men '89 / Cultural revolution / etc, and tries to form some sort of informed opinion on the matter, instead of blindly supporting everything the Communist party says.

and 3) Prefers a democratic system to a totalitarianist state.

...is a traitor. In my Chinese circle, anyone who does NOT mindlessly follow the Communist party is seen as a traitor, and a lot of the time this includes me. {This has it's parallels in America too, when anyone who doesn't support the Iraq war was Unpatriotic. Anyone who doesn't support those anti-terrorist laws must be terrorist sympathisers. I believe even Atheists are seen as unpatriotic in America.}

My Chinese friends totally believe that "Tibet was, is, and always will be part of China.", despite having never read anything about Tibetan history or culture, and having never been to Tibet, or met a Tibetan in real life. They would also go out and wave red flags and shout down Tibetan demonstrators, if they get bored enough. Now, not only do they not have any information to base their views on, they are also telling me to stop reading anything about Tibet not written by the Communist party, and support the party's views. This reminds me of Orwell's 1984.

The interesting thing is, it's not unlikely that the other side of this argument, i.e. the people waving those Tibetan flags, are also equally blinded by bigotry. Because in the west the most popular books and films on Tibet are also very biased, sometimes even more so than official Chinese published books. And then there are the hippies who goes and waves the Tibetan flags, probably not knowing anything about the oppression of the feudal Tibetan system before 1950. So they mistakingly believe somehow Tibetan independence is a symbol of freedom.

Is ignorance bliss? Then at least you are not hated by both sides.

Dude, THEY ARE COMMUNISTS. They were taught and educated in such a way that Communist philosophies are ingrained in their minds. They have been taught exactly the way the government wanted them to be taught, it was not a mistake by any stretch of the imagination.

don't listen to them, they live in shit and straw huts while the free world (the capitalist oppressors) live their own lives. Keep reading books and make your own way and become a success. You cant change them and make it so they cant change who YOU are.