Time is an illusion

[DarkLordofDevon]

So there's this pervasive theory in quantum physics, the "Many World Theory" if I have my title right. Basically it says that at every moment there's a 'quantum decision' to be made the universe splits. I flip a coin. It doesn't come down heads or tails. It comes down head in one universe and tails in the other.

I hate this theory. It has almost as many holes as Descartes meditations, not the least of which being where did the energy for a second universe come from? I have a counter-proposal.

All possibilities already exist. Reality is a 'web' of possibilities. All possible tomorrows that can come from today and all possible pasts that could lead to today exist simultaneously. A being of sufficient power could visit each static universe by following the 'quantum decisions' that link each universe.

We are not quite such beings. We only experience those universes that our abilities allow us to. Time does not flow, but rather, we move from moment to moment as we choose (or have it chosen for us) which reality to experience. Those moments are not moments of time as we perceive them but rather already existent realities we come into.

DISCLAIMER: This does NOT support quantum immortality so do NOT kill yourself trying to prove me or yourself right or wrong.

This is pretty much my own personal theory but in slightly different words.

Every possible outcome from a decision has a probability. In every 'alternate' (not a good word, but it will do for now) universe there is at least 1 probability which is different. Each probability is tried out forming an infinite number of universes. Now there is also the probability of being able to move between universes, creating probabilities of probabilities, creating 'groups' as it were of an infinite number of universes where some can be affected by others and some can't.

Quantum Physics is good fun.

 

[Valiance]

We only experience those universes that our abilities allow us to. Time does not flow, but rather, we move from moment to moment as we choose (or have it chosen for us) which reality to experience. Those moments are not moments of time as we perceive them but rather already existent realities we come into.

DISCLAIMER: This does NOT support quantum immortality so do NOT kill yourself trying to prove me or yourself right or wrong.

This would explain those dreams I keep having.
I've thought of something similar before but you said it better than I.

 

[H.R.Shovenstuff]

Already been thought of. Also, have you read Anathem Captain Blackout?

I'm both pissed and glad. Pissed someone beat me to it, glad someone beat me to it because if I'm the first, the rest of the world are more retarded than I thought.

Nope, haven't read Anathem. I just now looked it up, and it may end up on my reading list (I'm supposed to read "bio of a space tyrant" next, so it may be a little while)

I heavily recommend it, it discusses some of the stuff you mentioned. Well the whole last half of the book is pretty much all about it.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect... but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff. - The Doctor

Hehe.

Anyway, your theory produces even more problems, because if the differing quantum states already exist, what happens when one of them ends? And if energy can pass across the quantum state, for the receiving state energy has been created and from the sending state, energy has been destroyed which violates the principles of energy/mass conservation unless each state automatically takes from another, in which case you've observed a perpetual energy cycle, which is impossible.

Quantum isn't like comparing meerkats.

 

[Cargando]

Personally I think that the best theory we've got at the minute is Einsteins General Theory of Relativity.

 

[traceur_]

One time a ten year old told me 'time is an illusion'. I punched him in the head.

Quantum physics confuses the hell out of me and I find it much easier to never think about.

Don't ask questions, just be grateful it happens, I say.

 

[Captain Blackout]

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect... but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff. - The Doctor

Hehe.

Anyway, your theory produces even more problems, because if the differing quantum states already exist, what happens when one of them ends? And if energy can pass across the quantum state, for the receiving state energy has been created and from the sending state, energy has been destroyed which violates the principles of energy/mass conservation unless each state automatically takes from another, in which case you've observed a perpetual energy cycle, which is impossible.

Quantum isn't like comparing meerkats.

According to my theory the don't 'end'. I'm not even sure they 'begin'. More like, they are all already there.

The fact that reality exists suggests there may well be a perpetual energy cycle at some level. Look at it this way: Either reality is eternal, or it isn't. If it's eternal, something's probably keeping it going (maybe white holes are spewing out universes and superstring shuffle them back to the white holes. Or some other gobbledy gook) If reality isn't eternal, why is it even here? I don't mean why is our universe here big bang big rip crap. I mean: If everything known and unknown has a beginning and an end, why not conserve complexity and not have anything?

It just seems really really weird to me that nothing exists, then everything exists, then nothing exists (no repeat, that would be eternal reality with different parameters) and here we are seeing that brief moment of existence.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

According to my theory the don't 'end'. I'm not even sure they 'begin'. More like, they are all already there.

One problem is that that then defeats the idea of universal entropy, which has been observed, unless you're in a looping cycle, which means that at some point it will seem as which time reverses.

The fact that reality exists suggests there may well be a perpetual energy cycle at some level. Look at it this way: Either reality is eternal, or it isn't. If it's eternal, something's probably keeping it going (maybe white holes are spewing out universes and superstring shuffle them back to the white holes. Or some other gobbledy gook) If reality isn't eternal, why is it even here? I don't mean why is our universe here big bang big rip crap. I mean: If everything known and unknown has a beginning and an end, why not conserve complexity and not have anything?

Mainly because that's a Dawkin's answer and one of the anti-God one's used. Things just happen without reason due to something as simple as Brownian motion. Statisticians usually refer to probability clumpings, where small anomalies appear as proof of random activity.

If reality is eternal, then so are we. How's that shake your world view?

It just seems really really weird to me that nothing exists, then everything exists, then nothing exists (no repeat, that would be eternal reality with different parameters) and here we are seeing that brief moment of existence.

Think of a sphere walking past a two dimensional object. First nothing, then a small circle, then a large circle and then it passes away. Our brains can only cope with 4 dimensions at best(Height, Length, Depth & Time), and your superstrings can be up to 10 dimensions across.

 

[Shycte]

Nobody would kill themselves trying to prove you right or wrong because as far as we know, you're just some guy on a forum.
No offense, but your theories don't hold much water until your third Nobel Prize.

But we all have to start somewere! And you know what? This is a great place to do so, I've had loads of intresting talks with people on this forum about serious and complex topics. Besides, even if his what he says 'don't hold water' it is still a good topic to disuss.

But you, master of all knowledge, knew that of course.

OT: Most people think that time is like a river, that flows strong and shortly in one way. But I hve seen the fce of time, and I can tell you. They are wrong.

Cookie for refrence.

Seriously though. I don't belive in 'other dimensions'. I beileve in a unwritten future created by our actions.

 

[Captain Blackout]

According to my theory the don't 'end'. I'm not even sure they 'begin'. More like, they are all already there.

One problem is that that then defeats the idea of universal entropy, which has been observed, unless you're in a looping cycle, which means that at some point it will seem as which time reverses.

The fact that reality exists suggests there may well be a perpetual energy cycle at some level. Look at it this way: Either reality is eternal, or it isn't. If it's eternal, something's probably keeping it going (maybe white holes are spewing out universes and superstring shuffle them back to the white holes. Or some other gobbledy gook) If reality isn't eternal, why is it even here? I don't mean why is our universe here big bang big rip crap. I mean: If everything known and unknown has a beginning and an end, why not conserve complexity and not have anything?

Mainly because that's a Dawkin's answer and one of the anti-God one's used. Things just happen without reason due to something as simple as Brownian motion. Statisticians usually refer to probability clumpings, where small anomalies appear as proof of random activity.

If reality is eternal, then so are we. How's that shake your world view?

It just seems really really weird to me that nothing exists, then everything exists, then nothing exists (no repeat, that would be eternal reality with different parameters) and here we are seeing that brief moment of existence.

Think of a sphere walking past a two dimensional object. First nothing, then a small circle, then a large circle and then it passes away. Our brains can only cope with 4 dimensions at best(Height, Length, Depth & Time), and your superstrings can be up to 10 dimensions across.

Ok, I gotta ask, do you take me for an atheist? I just kinda got that sense from you...

 

[Gerazzi]

I was actually thinking about this just yesterday. But the Doctor always sorts my mind out:

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect... but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff. - The Doctor

You win the thread for the most awesome quote ever.

but seriously, @OP, the theory which you reject isn't quite as simple as you make it out to be, it involves an infinity of different possible outcomes, each one does a different thing and each one leads to a different universe.
...
and now I'm getting into string theory because I had to stop myself from stating dimensions. (settle down, according to the theory there's only ten)

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Ok, I gotta ask, do you take me for an atheist? I just kinda got that sense from you...

Apologies, I've been on a long atheistical argument recently. Though I'm at odds to see how a Theist would cope with the idea of an eternal universe.

 

[Uncompetative]

So there's this pervasive theory in quantum physics, the "Many World Theory" if I have my title right. Basically it says that at every moment there's a 'quantum decision' to be made the universe splits. I flip a coin. It doesn't come down heads or tails. It comes down head in one universe and tails in the other.

I hate this theory. It has almost as many holes as Descartes meditations, not the least of which being where did the energy for a second universe come from? I have a counter-proposal.

All possibilities already exist. Reality is a 'web' of possibilities. All possible tomorrows that can come from today and all possible pasts that could lead to today exist simultaneously. A being of sufficient power could visit each static universe by following the 'quantum decisions' that link each universe.

We are not quite such beings. We only experience those universes that our abilities allow us to. Time does not flow, but rather, we move from moment to moment as we choose (or have it chosen for us) which reality to experience. Those moments are not moments of time as we perceive them but rather already existent realities we come into.

DISCLAIMER: This does NOT support quantum immortality so do NOT kill yourself trying to prove me or yourself right or wrong.

I suppose what you are saying is like the difference between programming language paradigms. The classical, Newtonian conception of the Universe is an Imperative Program (like Java) and the many-worlds quantum conception is a Functional Program (like Haskell). It all comes down to the difference of whether you see things as an Imperative process or a timeless set of Functional relationships.

Perhaps, our consciousnesses are tied up to the quantum world on some neurological bio-chemical level and flit from universe to universe, giving us the illusion of free-will in a predestined multiverse. Effectively, all of us has only one lifeline and there are no parallel universe counterparts of ourselves that are simultaneously existing alongside us, but merely vessels of probability waveforms that we 'step into' as we make our choices and become them. Hence, no change of physical state, just a change of subjective apprehension of the multiverse.

Interesting, OP.

 

[timmytom1]

Well we`re unlikely to find out the truth on the matter within our lifetimes so it doesn`t really bother me

also when i saw your title alll i could thik of was the lyrics to metallica`s cover of holocaut`s "the small hours"

 

[BaldursBananaSoap]

*Kills self*

 

[Captain Blackout]

Ok, I gotta ask, do you take me for an atheist? I just kinda got that sense from you...

Apologies, I've been on a long atheistical argument recently. Though I'm at odds to see how a Theist would cope with the idea of an eternal universe.

Reality (the universe, the multiverse, the whatever) could be an eternal, constantly changing structure which gives a framework for spirits to work within. Or something equally weird.

Apologies not needed. I was just gonna laugh like hell if you did think I was an atheist. I was getting all kinds of flack on another thread for being a theist.

 

[esperandote]

futurama episode?

 

[Captain Blackout]

I suppose what you are saying is like the difference between programming language paradigms. The classical, Newtonian conception of the Universe is an Imperative Program (like Java) and the many-worlds quantum conception is a Functional Program (like Haskell). It all comes down to the difference of whether you see things as an Imperative process or a timeless set of Functional relationships.

Perhaps, our consciousnesses are tied up to the quantum world on some neurological bio-chemical level and flit from universe to universe, giving us the illusion of free-will in a predestined multiverse. Effectively, all of us has only one lifeline and there are no parallel universe counterparts of ourselves that are simultaneously existing alongside us, but merely vessels of probability waveforms that we 'step into' as we make our choices and become them. Hence, no change of physical state, just a change of subjective apprehension of the multiverse.

Interesting, OP.

Unfortunately some neuro-scientist (I forget who) already shot down a connection between quantum phenomena and the biological processes of our brains. I'm not saying the connection isn't there, just that we need to discover a new mechanism in our brains before we can easily go for any version of the "quantum mind" theory. Other than that small hurdle, nice perspective.

 

[Biosophilogical]

....***W*H*A*T*** ***T*H*E*** ***S*T*U*F*F*** ***!*!*!***....
Maybe we just don't understand the quantum variables yet, or maybe those variables exist in an as ye, undiscovered 12th dimension, cause I will stick to the belief of dynamical systems. (given all the positions and momentums of every particle and energy in existance, one could, theoretically(doesn't work in practice) predict the future).

IMHO though, if you flip a coin, over ten flips you will get a collection ofboth heads and tails but on a single toss, with an exact force applied and stuff (all variable accounted for) the coin would always and will always land on either heads or tails (it will only ever be one).

 

[Julianking93]

Arghh...my brain hurts after reading Quantum Physics Theories.