Time Signatures

[defcon 1]

This has been bugging me for a very long time. I've always wondered how people identified a key signature in music just by listening to the song. Everyone I have ask about a song with a 3/4 just says, "can't you just feel the 1.2.3. 1.2.3. 1.2.3?" I'm terribly sorry, but I don't "feel" I think.
Can anyone describe to me a logical way in which to return a time signature? Idealy I would like to understand it to the point where I can write a program that can detirmine the key signature with enough samples.

 

[ThePoodonkis]

I've played in my School's band for 5 years now, and I couldn't do that until about 2 years in.
It just comes to you with practice, and being required to figure out time signatures for various songs.

That, or just listen to bass line or drums. They have a repetitious beat, so you tap your foot to said beat. You count the taps until the beat starts over.

This is how I figured out Money by Pink Floyd was in 7/8 time, but this doesn't work for all songs. Specifically, ones that have time changes (I.E. 3/4 to 2/4 to 4/4 to 3/4 et cetra). I'm still trying to figure out Schism by Tool.

 

[Starnerf]

Yeah, really just listen for when the beat seems to repeat. Sometimes it's really obvious, sometimes it's not.

 

[defcon 1]

When it repeats? Like...

[(1/4)+(1/2) + (1/4)+(1/2) + (1/8)] + [(1/4)+(1/2) + (1/4)+(1/2) + (1/8)]

Do we just judge the song by the outermost loop?

 

[bmf185]

This has been bugging me for a very long time. I've always wondered how people identified a key signature in music just by listening to the song. Everyone I have ask about a song with a 3/4 just says, "can't you just feel the 1.2.3. 1.2.3. 1.2.3?" I'm terribly sorry, but I don't "feel" I think.
Can anyone describe to me a logical way in which to return a time signature? Idealy I would like to understand it to the point where I can write a program that can detirmine the key signature with enough samples.

Time signature is what you're talking about. Key signature means what key the song is in (G, Bb, etc.). Be careful of that.

A time signature is just how many beats are in a measure. The most common durations of notes are whole notes, half notes, quarter notes, eighth notes, and sixteenth notes. A half note has the same duration as two quarter notes has the same duration as four eighth notes and so on. A 4/4 beat (the most common) means that there are four quarter notes per measure and is just counted one-two-three-four. 3/4 then means that there are three quarter notes per measure and has a distinctly different beat than 4/4. Think about waltz music -- that is almost entirely written in 3/4. The "pulse" is on the one of every measure, so think ONE-two-three-ONE-two-three-ONE-two-three etc. Here is an example. The tuba/bass plays on the one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpzO_HW4s_s&feature=PlayList&p=888AD7056AEFD95F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

Now, a song in (mostly) 4/4 that I am currently watching has a distinctly different "feel" to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQNCTJ6cUmI

Get it?

 

[bmf185]

I'm still trying to figure out Schism by Tool.

The intro is two measures of 4/4 (the little bass thing) and then alternating 5/8 and 7/8 just about every measure after that until the 4/4 bridge. Think of it like this:

ONE-two-ONE-two-three | ONE-two-ONE-two-ONE-two-three

I KNOW | the PIE-CES FIT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa2ZU5HnrHI

Do I win something?

EDIT: It is obviously more complicated and has more than just three, but that's the main theme.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

I don't know. can't you just er, 'feel it'? really?

 

[NeutralDrow]

I can usually only tell by directing.

 

[ThePoodonkis]

I'm still trying to figure out Schism by Tool.

The intro is two measures of 4/4 (the little bass thing) and then alternating 5/8 and 7/8 just about every measure after that until the 4/4 bridge. Think of it like this:

ONE-two-ONE-two-three | ONE-two-ONE-two-ONE-two-three

I KNOW | the PIE-CES FIT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa2ZU5HnrHI

Do I win something?

EDIT: It is obviously more complicated and has more than just three, but that's the main theme.

How about 1,000 Poodonkis Points?

 

[defcon 1]

Right, I mean time signature (I was tired that day). I know how time signatures work. I also know that the sum of all the notes in that particular measure will equal a time signature. Example 3/4: (1/8)+(1/8)+(1/4)+(1/4) = 3/4. I could have a program add every 1, if not consistent, then add every 2, if not, every 3 and so on. I thought this is what people have been doing in their heads the whole time but later I learned that most of these people can't add these numbers in there head let alone at the speed of the music. Given that, I can say that they are not using my method but a simpler one. Anyone know? At first glance I'm thinking that most people rely on intuition, but it's definitely something I'm not willing to accept.

 

[TheBluesader]

Western music theory is a language, plain and simple. It isn't "intrinsic" any more than any other language. It has rules, and you have to learn those rules to understand it. Once you do, then you can start feeling things, like how at this point you can probably understand someone mumbling in English, whereas someone who doesn't speak it well can't.

Certainly, logically speaking, there are a thousand ways to "feel" a time signature or to construct a set of tones into some kind of system. That isn't debatable. What you have to learn is the way the language, the system, of Western music theory does these things, which is based on almost a thousand years of slow evolution. It has to do with what instruments we have and what innovations have been made in literacy and math.

Don't let people tell you it's just "natural" or something. They may pick it up fast as a talent, but it's still a language that simply has to be learned.

 

[bmf185]

I'm still trying to figure out Schism by Tool.

The intro is two measures of 4/4 (the little bass thing) and then alternating 5/8 and 7/8 just about every measure after that until the 4/4 bridge. Think of it like this:

ONE-two-ONE-two-three | ONE-two-ONE-two-ONE-two-three

I KNOW | the PIE-CES FIT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa2ZU5HnrHI

Do I win something?

EDIT: It is obviously more complicated and has more than just three, but that's the main theme.

How about 1,000 Poodonkis Points?

I will accept that.

 

[Novania]

I always follow the conductor, but when I'm doing jazz improv sometimes I just get into the feel of the piece and the counting happens subconsciously

 

[Shaenightbird]

It's difficult to "feel" a time signature, because there are many that mimic each other closely. The difference between a 3/4 and a 6/8 is more obvious to a trained musician than to the average listener simply because of that; training. When you get into asymetric metre, it gets weirder. 5/4, 7/4, 5/8, 9's, 11's, all of this is to enable composers to write music in the Western tradition according to how they hear it in their heads, and this is the means by which the ideas are translated so other musicians can comprehend, and express it. Sometimes I think it's more complicated than it needs to be, but it's really all in how a composer translates their vision so that others can play it as close to the composers concept as possible.