Times where the hero seems like the villain

[Fox12]

I'm not talking about anti-heroes, or main characters who are supposed to be evil. I'm talking about times where the story and the writer clearly want you to agree with the "hero," but you find yourself against them instead.

For me it would be Frank Millers Dark Knight Returns. Half the book seems to consist of news anchors arguing about batman. On the one hand we have people who argue that having a vigilante on the loose is a danger to civil liberties. On the other side we have Lana Lang explaining that OF COURSE Batman is doing the right thing, because he's Batman. After a moment I realized that half of Batmans villains wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for him, and I realized that the anti-batman group actually had a much stronger argument. By the end of the story I hated Millers version of Batman, and found myself rooting for his many opponents.

 

[jademunky]

I'm not talking about anti-heroes, or main characters who are supposed to be evil. I'm talking about times where the story and the writer clearly want you to agree with the "hero," but you find yourself against them instead.

For me it would be Frank Millers Dark Knight Returns. Half the book seems to consist of news anchors arguing about batman. On the one hand we have people who argue that having a vigilante on the loose is a danger to civil liberties. On the other side we have Lana Lang explaining that OF COURSE Batman is doing the right thing, because he's Batman. After a moment I realized that half of Batmans villains wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for him, and I realized that the anti-batman group actually had a much stronger argument. By the end of the story I hated Millers version of Batman, and found myself rooting for his many opponents.

Yeah I do not think Frank Miller really gets Batman. Year one was pretty decent but I honestly feel Dark Knight Returns is a bit overrated. When written well, Bats is nearly as much of a boy-scout as Superman in some ways.

Anyway, heroes acting like villains... ever read the "Sword of Truth" series? It ends with the hero sending roughly 90% of the human race into a crapsack alternate universe where they and their descendants will forever be cut off from the afterlife. And this is not intended by the author to be an act of villainy either. While doing this, the protagonist gives a long objectivist-themed speech regarding everyone else' moral shortcomings.

 

[TakerFoxx]

Well, there was the time when Richard Ralh cut a bloody swath through a gaggle of unarmed, pacifist protestors in the Sword of Truth books and was portrayed as being completely right to do so, because apparently the pacifists didn't have "moral clarity" or somesuch.

Oh wait, the guy above me already mentioned Sword of Truth. And that's not sarcasm, I really didn't notice until I had finished writing that paragraph. Yeah, those books have a lot of those moments.

 

[Thaluikhain]

A thing I've seen in "Bitten" and "Stolen" by Kelley Armstrong. Also the True Blood series, and...actually a lot of stuff where the hero is a big nasty supernatural creature.

They tend to discover that the people they are fighting for some other reason are rapists and child molesters, so they are by default, the good guys, and whatever evil they do doesn't count.

 

[Comic Sans]

In Final Fantasy Tactics Advance the main character, Marche, is a total twat. The characters are transported to the world of Ivalice through a magic book, where they get to start over but without all the problems of the real world. They are all happy. One kid had a really shitty home life and was picked on to the point of physical harm in school, and here he's the prince, his mom is alive and his dad has great power rather than being a bum. Hell, Marche's own brother is in a WHEELCHAIR in the real world, completely incapable of walking, but in Ivalice he can walk. Despite everyone being happy, the main character takes it on himself to take them all back to the main world. Despite the fact that he is hurting his best friends, and without their consent, he begins killing the anchors to the fantasy world. He even has a speech to his little brother about how "it's hard for him too". HE CANNOT WALK BACK HOME YOU FUCKING TWIT. Due to the power of plot convenience he convinces everyone else eventually, but early on before he talked to them he came off as a major prick for trying to ruin his friends' happiness.

 

[Veylon]

Not exactly villainy, but there's a point in every Eddings series (except maybe the first) where the heroes' overweening cleverness becomes utterly sickening.

 

[Elfgore]

Lelough from Code Geass is a pretty easy choice. I mean he leads a terrorist group, he does some very questionable things, and he seems very egotistical. As I watched the series, I truly thought of him as a selfish man who was doing all of this not for his sister. But to fulfill his own desire for power. Then the last episode happened and all of that doubt was blown away.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Yeah I do not think Frank Miller really gets Batman. Year one was pretty decent but I honestly feel Dark Knight Returns is a bit overrated. When written well, Bats is nearly as much of a boy-scout as Superman in some ways.

I never get when people say "this comic book author doesn't get this comic book character". Doesn't "get" according to whom? Where do you perceive lies the platonic ideal of a comic book character? If "getting" Batman means giving him a boring boy-scout personality like Superman's, I'd rather read the version where the author "doesn't get it" every other day.

 

[Ubiquitous Duck]

The end of the film Daybreakers.

Spoilers, but I'll try and be inspecific.

They drive away into the sunset with the whole 'good job guys' feels to the moment, but I was like 'WTF this isn't a "fix", how is this a "good" ending?!?!'

If you have seen this film, I think you will get what I'm on about!

 

[Rellik San]

I never get when people say "this comic book author doesn't get this comic book character". Doesn't "get" according to whom? Where do you perceive lies the platonic ideal of a comic book character? If "getting" Batman means giving him a boring boy-scout personality like Superman's, I'd rather read the version where the author "doesn't get it" every other day.

Certain features make up a character; Think of it this way, characters have specific traits, I'll show you what I mean:

Batman is brooding, controlled, dark, passionate. He wins his fights by being smarter, faster and fitter and works for this, these things require great discipline and as a result Batman is disciplined, he is order.

Notice what's missing from that? The fact that Batman isn't a man on the edge, sure he has his moments where he snaps, but those moments are shocking and intense because he's normally so calm and collected. Yet some writers chose to write Batman as just that, a psychopath on the edge, filled with bitterness and resentment.


Superman, is bright, noble, daring, but gentle, he cares about everyone, all of us, he's not just a guy about the big picture, he's a guy for whom the smallest victories of normal people being better is just as powerful to him as his victories against Darkseid.

What Superman isn't, is an always in control boy scout, he'll try to do the right thing, but sometimes he doesn't know what that right thing is and acts without clearly thinking, but he always works to make ammends, Superman isn't perfect by any stretch but he is human. Yet some writers chose to portray him as a the epitome of good, an infallible paragon of purity that no one can live up to, because Superman is Jeebus Christe.

See what I'm getting at here, there are set ways a character acts, that's how they become enduring, sure they don't always act that way and sometimes that can be good writing designed for intense drama, but a lot of the time writers changing up character traits to make them more edgy or noble go too far and we end up with something ghoulish or boring... and when someone says a writer doesn't "get" a character, that is what they mean.

 

[1Life0Continues]

Every playable character in the Borderlands games.

Although...are they really pushed as heroes? Or are they just held up as less dickish than the actual bad guys?

Hmmm...

 

[Voltano]

Every playable character in the Borderlands games.

Although...are they really pushed as heroes? Or are they just held up as less dickish than the actual bad guys?

Hmmm...

I don't think the protagonists in every "Borderlands" games count as a hero. They are treasure hunters looking for loot, similar to pirates or tomb robbers (quite literally with that last one). I guess you could say they are perceived as being heroic in the second game when going against Handsome Jack. But aside from player motives and promise of blue guns, there is little motive or reason why these characters might help the citizens of Sanctuary.

On-topic:

"Spider-man" is a great example, almost to the point that even Peter Parker recognizes this. I'm not talking about "One more Day" or any of the latter stories with Spider-man, but his final actions with Uncle Ben.

In the Sam Raimi films, Peter Parker felt like he could use his new powers to get MJ by getting a vehicle easily through a wrestling match. This lead him to having an argument with Uncle Ben before his death. Afterwards, Parker lets the robber of the wrestling match maker get away when the match maker screws Parker out of the promised cash. Parker *intentionally* takes the side of being a dick/villain in this scenario, because he felt justified in being a dick to the guy being a dick to him. Once Parker learns about Uncle Ben's death, Parker wants to get revenge on the guy through violence and above the law -- only to learn that the guy who killed Uncle Ben was the same person he let get away in the wrestling office.

Parker made the consensual choice of doing something wrong by letting the robber go, even after witnessing a crime before him. Parker recognized this, but chose to let the robber go to teach the wrestling match maker a lesson in being a dick. Yet that very night also made Parker realize his actions has serious consequences that could hurt the ones he cared for, and cause grief to himself for his actions.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Every playable character in the Borderlands games.

Although...are they really pushed as heroes? Or are they just held up as less dickish than the actual bad guys?

Hmmm...

Well, they do help out the denizens of Pandora by ridding the planet of pretty much every murderous, abusive gang that's hanging around. And you can't even shoot the good guy NPCs. So I guess you're only being heroic as a means of getting access to the Vault, though you still do more good than wrong by the end.

 

[SKBPinkie]

Not sure if this counts - but Ferris Bueller.

What a monumental cockhead he was. Deceitful, lying, lazy, manipulative, egotistical, superficial, and overall a douche icon. I understand it's a comedy and that I wasn't supposed to take him too seriously, but holy crap, I hoped and hoped that he would be punished in some way, but nothing of the sort happened.

 

[doxydejour]

Both of the GI Joe films. Wading into other countries who have not declared any kind of malice against the USA without invitation and slaughtering their troops, then being pissed because some of your squad was killed? Er yeah no. And then allowing the bad guys to nuke London and kill thousands even though you were stood right there in the room and could have stopped them at any point? Oh yeah, totally heroic guys. Eff the lot of you.

 

[wolf thing]

Not sure if this counts - but Ferris Bueller.

What a monumental cockhead he was. Deceitful, lying, lazy, manipulative, egotistical, superficial, and overall a douche icon. I understand it's a comedy and that I wasn't supposed to take him too seriously, but holy crap, I hoped and hoped that he would be punished in some way, but nothing of the sort happened.

I agree completely, but have you seen the theory going around the Ferris is part of Cameron's imagination? check out leon Thomas video on it, its pretty cool.

OT: the movie, Killer Elite, because it trys to make you think a mercenary killing SAS officer was a white knight of high moral guard, not a bad idea but badly handled.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Everyone in Starship Troopers. But then Verhoeven didn't leave much to the imagination, now did he?

A less suggestive one; Harry Tasker in True Lies. The dude starts off by traumatizing his wife with a brutal Swat raid, and throws her in an interrogation room to ask her personal, sexual questions. Then he forces her to do an assignment possing as a prostitute, and having her dance seductively infront of who she assumes is a suspected and possibly dangerous arms dealer. Then Harry, pretending to be said arms dealer has her lie on the bed and proceeds to make out with her.

He's lucky those terrorists burst in when they did, otherwise Helen would've fucking divorced him, sued him for everything he had, and cost him his job most likely.

 

[And Man]

snip

That was the point though; instead of facing their problems, they were just using Ivalice as a form of escapism. And from the other side of things, it also wouldn't be fair to force Marche to stay in Ivalice just because the others want to.

 

[Lugbzurg]

This is one of the issues (among so many others) that absolutely killed Sword Art Online for me. Kirito is just horrid. For one thing, with hundreds upon hundreds of people dying all the time for the sake of trying to escape from their imprisonment and tasked with joining the forces to break everyone out, what does he do? He goes on vacation with his waifu! What's more, after already proposing marriage to Asuna, he then proceeded to start hitting on his own cousin and told her that the two of them "still have a chance together". What's more, when faced with a guy who's worst successful offense was merely touching a single girl inappropriately in a virtual world where all the sensors were confirmed to be keeping the players from being able to feel anything at all, he proceeded to hack the game to make the guy feel 100% of all pain, sliced his hand off, chopped him in half, tossed the remaining upper section of his body still writhing in pain, and as he came back down, Kirito stabbed him in the head. Oh, but not before talking about how awesome the previous villain was. No, he was seriously idealizing and idolizing the man who murdered around 4,000 people he had imprisoned, insisting this guy was a brave hero who "would never run away". Shortly afterwords, you get to see Kirito's victim in the real world, and his body's been seriously messed up. Despite what a psychopath Kirito is, the show keeps trying to flimsily justify his actions in an effort to convince you that everything the protagonist does is always ideal and heroic.

Similarly, Issei from Highschool DxD cares about nothing but being able to have sex with as many girls as humanly (or demonically) possible. It isn't even handled in a tongue-and-cheek or parody sort of manor like Johnny Bravo or Duke Nukem, nor does it deconstruct this like School Days. It tries to find every which way to not only justify this, but paint it as epic and heroic. And if that's not bad enough, his signature move is using demonic sorcery (I'm not even joking about any of this) to completely rip and tear the clothes off of woman, stripping them naked. 99% of the time, they're even complete strangers. And no one ever confronts him about this. Rather, they continue to encourage him to do this. One of his ultimate dreams is to destroy clothing on woman just by looking at them. I'm not remotely kidding here. It actually tries to make all of this come off as ideal.

 

[Legomaniac91_v1legacy]

The biggest one for me would be Kratos from God of War. His appearance in the first game was about as heroic as it gets, but in 2 and 3 he takes a sharp dive into villain territory. Despite the games desperately trying to paint Zeus as a mad tyrant, Kratos still came off as an even bigger lunatic. There are several points in 3 (the scene with Hera in particular) where the gods call Kratos out on his psychotic ways and you can see the writers say "uh-uh, they have a point. Quick, make them say something douchy so Kratos has a reason to kill them!"