Tipping, let's talk about it

[The Rogue Wolf]

As someone who has worked for tips- I spent four years as a pizza delivery driver- I do my absolute best to be a generous tipper. At the same time, I despise how tips have displaced actual living wages for service people. If there's some kind of serious economic downturn, then tips are going to dry up fast no matter how good the service.

 

[Xprimentyl]

In my second sentence I said I tip 20% when going out to eat. If tipping culture was fine to just maintain it with workers that earned well under minimum wage in expected tipping jobs then it would still be stupid but fine. The main problem I have is when tipping culture tries to rope other workers into it that make at or over the minimum wage. Like with starbucks, you have a tipping expectation, but the barista isn't making under minimum wage, they are making at least $15 an hour (depending on where you are) that is a wage where you don't need a tip to survive.

This afternoon, I walked past a sale on oranges in the produce section of my local grocery. I neither needed nor bought oranges. I also didn't complain about the price of oranges.

Tipping is optional. My complaint is people who've taken to social media to complain about tipping. Don't tip, and be happy with yourself. Or tip, and understand it's appreciated. I wouldn't have started this thread if it was fees automatically added to a bill of good and services.

... Bloody hell that's one heavily charged OP. Tackling this should be interesting.

1. It's been said before, but tipping was supposed to be a system of showing gratitude for excellent service. Now it's used as a supplement for people's wages that we, the customer, now have to pay for when it shouldn't be our responsibility to do so.

It has always been a showing of gratitude for excellent service, i.e.: bad service gets no tip, good service gets a good tip. But taking the expectation as an affront to your experience? Get over yourself. Batters swing for the fences every time, but thinking just swinging the bat is enough to merit a multi-million dollar salary should be enough diminishes the general effort. I can't help the fact that business has determined that tips can supplement a lower wage, but I can reasonably accept that that is the reality of things, and show my appreciation to those who undertake service jobs.

Because questioning the way "reality" is at present is a good way to build discussion and possibly bring about change? If we all just sat down and rolled over because "that's just reality" then the world would be dramatically different than it is now. Just because you're comfortable with rolling over, it doesn't mean everyone else should be.

So your servers appreciate your stance on the status quo while they're doing their job. I could walk by a dozen hobos and deny them anything because "hand outs" are a crutch the general populace and governance should handle more appropriately; that doesn't help anyone who's served me given the reality of the situation. And nevermind we're not talking the price of oil or healthcare; we're talking about the luxury of others doing what we could easily do for ourselves, but folks wake up every day to do for others. If I can't afford $5 on a $25 pizza and a cocktail, or less, if I'm MAD because I'm expected to give at least $5, where are my priorities?

Right, and ideally there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I agree with you. However, I am one of those people that think the societal expectation is getting a little bit out of hand, and the ways the employers are benefiting from it need to change. I'll still tip, I'm not that much of a shite. Doesn't mean I'm happy with it and that this is the way it should continue to be

It's an expectation. If you wish to deny that, it's well within your right. But don't blame the people you deny a tip because the system they choose to engage in is less than ideal. I wish global warming wasn't a thing, but every time I turn on my gas-powered engine, I accept that I'm a part of the problem, and can't rail at all the other drivers about how unconscious they are to the problem. If you don't want to tip, fine; then don't indulge in the business or complain about how it should be. Speak with your wallet, and not AFTER you've partaken in the system.

 

[Baffle]

I rarely eat out because I dislike being waited on, but when I do, I tip if the service is decent. Doesn't have to be amazing, just okay - food turns up in a reasonable time frame and is edible, no one throws a drink at me. It'll be a tenner probably.

The only service I tip other than servers in a sit-down meal is, for reasons unknown, carpet fitters. It is preposterous that I would tip someone for operating a checkout, working on my car, or any other transaction.

I would and did tip food delivery drivers, but these days I just gp pick up the food if I have takeaway because I don't want to pay a delivery charge and a tip when I've got perfectly good (great, you might say) legs of my own.

I disagree with the argument that if you can't afford to tip then you can't afford to eat out. That immediately means the tip isn't discretionary IMO.

Edit: I tip taxis too, but it's once in a blue moon i'd use one. I don't tip trains.

 

[Worgen]

This afternoon, I walked past a sale on oranges in the produce section of my local grocery. I neither needed nor bought oranges. I also didn't complain about the price of oranges.

Tipping is optional. My complaint is people who've taken to social media to complain about tipping. Don't tip, and be happy with yourself. Or tip, and understand it's appreciated. I wouldn't have started this thread if it was fees automatically added to a bill of good and services.

Then why did you make a thread about tipping if you didn't want people to disagree about tipping?

Tipping is expected, while it might be optional, there are jobs where you go hungry if you don't get tips, so its only kinda optional. And if you don't tip people see you as an asshat. I recall this being said before.

 

[Baffle]

Tipping is optional.

[snip]

It has always been a showing of gratitude for excellent service, i.e.: bad service gets no tip, good service gets a good tip.

[snip]

Speak with your wallet, and not AFTER you've partaken in the system.

I don't think all these points can stand together. I can't judge whether the service deserves a tip before I've partaken in the system, and if I can't partake in the syatem without a tip then it's not optional. Tipping in this case becomes socially obligatory if not legally, at which point it's only optional if you don't mind being an arsehole, even though you're perfectly willing to pay the advertised price of the product.

It's just a piss-poor system and the only way we're going to stamp it out is with a revolution.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

Then why did you make a thread about tipping if you didn't want people to disagree about tipping?

No kidding. The thread flew right out of the gates spitting flames at other people that do things that Xprimentyl doesn't like and thinks they're stupid for it. Pretty sure this was more of a rant in a discussion's costume (which isn't the first time it's happened).

I don't think all these points can stand together. I can't judge whether the service deserves a tip before I've partaken in the system, and if I can't partake in the syatem without a tip then it's not optional. Tipping in this case becomes socially obligatory if not legally, at which point it's only optional if you don't mind being an arsehole, even though you're perfectly willing to pay the advertised price of the product.

Right? Bit of a conflict of thoughts here.

Batters swing for the fences every time, but thinking just swinging the bat is enough to merit a multi-million dollar salary should be enough diminishes the general effort.

Now who's engaging in hyperbole based on someone else's words?

I could walk by a dozen hobos and deny them anything because "hand outs" are a crutch the general populace and governance should handle more appropriately; that doesn't help anyone who's served me given the reality of the situation.
I wish global warming wasn't a thing, but every time I turn on my gas-powered engine, I accept that I'm a part of the problem, and can't rail at all the other drivers about how unconscious they are to the problem.

Ok, and? The problem still exists. The problem still needs to change. Just because you're partaking in being part of the problem that doesn't change the reality of the situation. So what if people get mad about tips? People get mad about homelessness and global warming. Should we be telling them to shut up and quit being mad about it? Or is it just because going out is a bit more of a personal luxury? Cause if it's the latter, Worgen and Baffle covered things quite well in their replies.

It's an expectation. If you wish to deny that, it's well within your right. But don't blame the people you deny a tip because the system they choose to engage in is less than ideal.

I'm not denying it's an expectation, and if you're taking otherwise from my words then you're not really hearing everything I've been saying.

Look, we've done this dance once before. I know you tend to have opinions that lean towards "this is the way the world works and you need to suck it up" but the ways you present your stances and approach discussing them with others can be rather questionable. Be real honest, are you wanting to hear dissenting opinions, or are you looking to have a big rant about a thing that annoys you? If it's the latter, that changes the context of this thread entirely

 

[Drathnoxis]

I tip because of social obligation, but I don't eat out very often because I'd rather spend several hours cooking a week myself rather than pay as much for one meal as I would for an entire week.

and I'm likely to spend $10 in far more wasteful ways than appreciating someone literally bringing me shit I don't need, but asked for, with a smile on their face.

Someone else is literally making and bringing me food.

lol, you both act like they are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts rather than because it's their job and they get paid to do it.

It's honestly the most demeaning and slave like form of labor.

It most definitely is not. What an absurd statement.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Nominally I tip 10% + keep the change. I tip extra if I liked the service or happen to be a regular.

Fortunately it's not an obligation where I live. None of that "Here's three different tiers of SUGGESTED tipping" bullshit on the bill.

 

[Gordon_4]

The only place I ever pay a gratuity - if you can call it that - is the rare occasion I decide I want to burn money and go to a strip club. I have tipped a server, once, because they more or less constantly looked after our group at a steakhouse we went to for a mate's stag do. There was a few of us so at the end we did a whip around and sent the nice lady home with like, $80 cash.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

The only service I tip other than servers in a sit-down meal is, for reasons unknown, carpet fitters.

Ingrained habit of slipping something extra to anyone spending that long down on their knees?

 

[Baffle]

Ingrained habit of slipping something extra to anyone spending that long down on their knees?

"Treat yourself to a few pints tonight."

 

[Gordon_4]

"Treat yourself to a few pints tonight."

It'll wash the taste out of their mouth at least.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Then why did you make a thread about tipping if you didn't want people to disagree about tipping?

Tipping is expected, while it might be optional, there are jobs where you go hungry if you don't get tips, so its only kinda optional. And if you don't tip people see you as an asshat. I recall this being said before.

I made the thread because the subject is a no-brainer for me and wanted to assess the temperature of others. I'm sorry I made a thread about something I had an opinion on because that's taboo apparently.

I don't think all these points can stand together. I can't judge whether the service deserves a tip before I've partaken in the system, and if I can't partake in the syatem without a tip then it's not optional. Tipping in this case becomes socially obligatory if not legally, at which point it's only optional if you don't mind being an arsehole, even though you're perfectly willing to pay the advertised price of the product.

It's just a piss-poor system and the only way we're going to stamp it out is with a revolution.

Absolutely they can stand together. Tipping is optional, and also an expectation when partaking of the service industry. Example: I'm going to eat out tonight; I expect to tip, but my tip is contingent upon the service I receive. Where is the dissonance? I can go out to eat and decide before I've ordered that I'm not going to tip on whatever principle makes that okay for me. Or I can expect to tip, and gauge that on the service I receive.

No kidding. The thread flew right out of the gates spitting flames at other people that do things that Xprimentyl doesn't like and thinks they're stupid for it. Pretty sure this was more of a rant in a discussion's costume (which isn't the first time it's happened).

No, the thread started with my thoughts on the issue. If anyone disagrees, they are free to do so, as well as justify those opinions with their own thoughts on the issue at hand. What? Every new thread needs to be dressed in a beige "I've no thoughts of my own" ball gown?

Ok, and? The problem still exists. The problem still needs to change. Just because you're partaking in being part of the problem that doesn't change the reality of the situation. So what if people get mad about tips? People get mad about homelessness and global warming. Should we be telling them to shut up and quit being mad about it? Or is it just because going out is a bit more of a personal luxury? Cause if it's the latter, Worgen and Baffle covered things quite well in their replies.

Who said it was a problem? I didn't start this thread questioning that tipping is a bane of our existence. Simply that it is a reality that some who've issue with who're are being very vocal about it.

Look, we've done this dance once before. I know you tend to have opinions that lean towards "this is the way the world works and you need to suck it up" but the ways you present your stances and approach discussing them with others can be rather questionable. Be real honest, are you wanting to hear dissenting opinions, or are you looking to have a big rant about a thing that annoys you? If it's the latter, that changes the context of this thread entirely

This is a discussion forum. If my side of the discussion grates against your own, that's fair, but recognize that those are your own opinions, which are welcome at the table. Because I disagree does not mean I dismiss discussion. Because I have differing ideals does not dismiss the validity of the conversation. If my ideas deal in "the way the world works," take that and talk about it. Don't dismiss the idea that, yeah, most of us live in the world and play the hand we're dealt. If discussion to you means only talking about a reality we'll never see, then maybe you deserve a whole separate forum.

lol, you both act like they are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts rather than because it's their job and they get paid to do it.

No, I'm under no such belief. I simply understand that those people have accepted a role that is easily thankless as evidenced by the droves of people making TikTok videos about how they shouldn't have to tip. I know, personally, that I couldn't be a server. I've not the patience, attitude, or aptitude. But what I do have is the appreciation for anyone who gets up every day to fill that role, and if in my daily life, I chose to go out and utilize their services, I've no issue is paying a little extra to them out of appreciation.

 

[Baffle]

Absolutely they can stand together. Tipping is optional, and also an expectation when partaking of the service industry. Example: I'm going to eat out tonight; I expect to tip, but my tip is contingent upon the service I receive. Where is the dissonance? I can go out to eat and decide before I've ordered that I'm not going to tip on whatever principle makes that okay for me. Or I can expect to tip, and gauge that on the service I receive.

But if it's an expectation for service, then it isn't a thank-you for exceptional service, it's paying for any service that isn't actively bad (in the same way I wouldn't pay a plumber that failed to stop a leak). If I tipped for exceptional service only I'd absolutely never tip.

It's no good being irritated with people who want to break out of an abusive system (which it is) that tries to exert some sort of moral code pressure in lieu of paying fair wages. Just increase the price of the food to cover the bill and stop being dishonest about your prices. If you can't afford to pay your staff, increase your prices. If the market won't bear those increased prices then, well, get fucked I suppose, you don't have a viable business.

 

[Ag3ma]

Tipping is a blight on society and should be ended (beyond perhaps the most basic and nominal "keep the change".)

Any rather thin benefit that might once have been argued about encouraging better service has been swamped by its abuse by unscrupulous employers to underpay their staff, with tips used to cover what should be their basic salary; implicitly, tips therefore represent adequate service rather than good. It is tricking customers by misleading them to the real price of their meal. It involves social awkwardness (what is the right amount to tip?), and disagreement forces customers and staff into difficult positions, conflict, resentment, with (from the perspective of the waiting staff) potentially fear due to their precarity.

For all that I think tipping is wholly broken and objectionable, I do of course tip because to do otherwise would worst hit the most disadvantaged.

 

[Worgen]

I made the thread because the subject is a no-brainer for me and wanted to assess the temperature of others. I'm sorry I made a thread about something I had an opinion on because that's taboo apparently.

Well, it seems like the majority opinion is that they tip, but the current tipping culture is a bad thing since workers should be making a normal wage.

 

[Xprimentyl]

But if it's an expectation for service, then it isn't a thank-you for exceptional service, it's paying for any service that isn't actively bad (in the same way I wouldn't pay a plumber that failed to stop a leak). If I tipped for exceptional service only I'd absolutely never tip.

It's no good being irritated with people who want to break out of an abusive system (which it is) that tries to exert some sort of moral code pressure in lieu of paying fair wages. Just increase the price of the food to cover the bill and stop being dishonest about your prices. If you can't afford to pay your staff, increase your prices. If the market won't bear those increased prices then, well, get fucked I suppose, you don't have a viable business.

Okay, let me clarify: for me, the expectation when I dine out/go to a bar is that a tip will be involved. Service doesn't need to be exceptional or even noteworthy, but as long as someone is treating me as a guest and isn't rude, irritated over my patronage, or downright bad at their job, I do not mind tipping nominal amounts that, when compared to the luxury of my being able to afford to dine out, are trivial.

I'm not irritated with anyone who wants to break out of an abusive system; I'm irritated that anyone complains about tipping after participating in the broken system they so loathe. If the system is so fundamentality unfair and broken, stay home! Vote with your wallet and let the broken system know it's not okay by you to underpay workers who rely on patrons' benevolence to make a living wage; that's fair! Don't dine out so you don't have to complain about the trivial expense of expressing appreciation in a nominal amount that might actually mean something to someone who, by choice or otherwise, waits on you.

But instead, what we have are people who go out to eat, order their steaks medium rare, and send it back when the steak is under-done. They ask for cleaner flatware. Extra napkins. They snap their fingers when their drink is empty. They expect to be treated like the most important person in a room of a hundred, and when the bill comes, and 20% is a suggested tip amount, they make TikToks about "the audacity" of the establishment suggesting they tip.

Well, it seems like the majority opinion is that they tip, but the current tipping culture is a bad thing since workers should be making a normal wage.

Agreed. So is the problem tipping culture, or a culture of employment that banks on tipping? Don't complain about tipping; complain that the employment structure relies heavily on tipping, then only patronize businesses that align with your values. Walk in, and before you order food or drink, ask what the staff makes; if it's less than minimum wage or any wage you deem fair, walk back out.

 

[Baffle]

Okay, let me clarify: for me, the expectation when I dine out/go to a bar is that a tip will be involved. Service doesn't need to be exceptional or even noteworthy, but as long as someone is treating me as a guest and isn't rude, irritated over my patronage, or downright bad at their job, I do not mind tipping nominal amounts that, when compared to the luxury of my being able to afford to dine out, are trivial.

I'm not irritated with anyone who wants to break out of an abusive system; I'm irritated that anyone complains about tipping after participating in the broken system they so loathe. If the system is so fundamentality unfair and broken, stay home! Vote with your wallet and let the broken system know it's not okay by you to underpay workers who rely on patrons' benevolence to make a living wage; that's fair! Don't dine out so you don't have to complain about the trivial expense of expressing appreciation in a nominal amount that might actually mean something to someone who, by choice or otherwise, waits on you.

But instead, what we have are people who go out to eat, order their steaks medium rare, and send it back when the steak is under-done. They ask for cleaner flatware. Extra napkins. They snap their fingers when their drink is empty. They expect to be treated like the most important person in a room of a hundred, and when the bill comes, and 20% is a suggested tip amount, they make TikToks about "the audacity" of the establishment suggesting they tip.



Agreed. So is the problem tipping culture, or a culture of employment that banks on tipping? Don't complain about tipping; complain that the employment structure relies heavily on tipping, then only patronize businesses that align with your values. Walk in, and before you order food or drink, ask what the staff makes; if it's less than minimum wage or any wage you deem fair, walk back out.

I mean, they were the bad guy the moment they made a TikTok.

And I partly agree: if you go out to eat knowing that your food price is being subsided by low staff wages, you should either not eat at that place or you should be willing to make up the difference (though there is no true difference that can be pinned down between what the food does and should cost). But that's a shit system that abuses everyone except the business owner and sociopaths, and I understand why people will lash out against it.

It isn't why I don't eat out often, but if US tip cutlure became more widespread in the UK it would certainly put me off.

Edit: it's similar, in my mind, to how companies treat end users like shit, knowing most people aren't going to go off at the customer service person they end up talking to, because you know it isn't their fault. It's cowardice, hiding behind people's unwillingness to be unkind to the disadvantaged. And yet the company never loses, because they don't really give a shit if you go off at the customer service rep/don't tip, it's just their way of absolving themselves of involvement or responsibility.

 

[BrawlMan]

@Xprimentyl

Honestly the thread is getting reductive at this point. For the people who act like entitled jackasses and expect everything to go to their whim? Fuck'em. Call them out publicly (or online if they're that dumb enough to post there asshole behavior), if they're in the same restaurant as you are, or treat the waiters and waitresses extra nice, as soon as that entitled jackass leaves. Let them know they're doing a good job and don't let assholes like them affect them. Give him a little something extra to encourage them. That's all you need.

Also, I highly suggest everybody watch that Double Toasted video I put on the previous page. It is there for a good reason. Tipping in the US started from racism against blacks and many of those that were former slaves.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

If discussion to you means only talking about a reality we'll never see

It doesn't.

This is a discussion forum. If my side of the discussion grates against your own, that's fair, but recognize that those are your own opinions, which are welcome at the table. Because I disagree does not mean I dismiss discussion. Because I have differing ideals does not dismiss the validity of the conversation. If my ideas deal in "the way the world works," take that and talk about it. Don't dismiss the idea that, yeah, most of us live in the world and play the hand we're dealt.

Right, and that's something I agree with. I just find some mild dissonance in your words when you say all of the above, yet started your reply with Worgen included...

I'm sorry I made a thread about something I had an opinion on because that's taboo apparently.

No need to be so defensive about it. Further...

I made the thread because the subject is a no-brainer for me and wanted to assess the temperature of others.

... and that's fine, nobody's biting your head off about it. What I was pointing out in my previous reply is that you seemingly start out extremely heated about your opinions and stances, and your wording in further replies reflects that. Once some back and forth rolls in, after a day or so you're responding as I see now; you chill out a little bit.
You may not notice it, but it does affect they kind of responses you get. Once you've dialed it back a notch I find myself agreeing with you a good bit more because your wording becomes a lot less "people do a thing I think is stupid and they suck for doing it, this is the way 'reality' is and they should quit whining about it, the entitled pricks" and becomes at least a little more nuanced. You express your thoughts more fully and, lo and behold, you make good points that seem more agreeable.

What? Every new thread needs to be dressed in a beige "I've no thoughts of my own" ball gown?

... though the snark doesn't do you any favours if you ask me, but that's my feelings on such a thing.

I'm not irritated with anyone who wants to break out of an abusive system; I'm irritated that anyone complains about tipping after participating in the broken system they so loathe.

I've wheeled this guy out once before and I'm doing it again:

HOWEVER...

If the system is so fundamentality unfair and broken, stay home! Vote with your wallet and let the broken system know it's not okay by you to underpay workers who rely on patrons' benevolence to make a living wage; that's fair! Don't dine out so you don't have to complain about the trivial expense of expressing appreciation in a nominal amount that might actually mean something to someone who, by choice or otherwise, waits on you.

So is the problem tipping culture, or a culture of employment that banks on tipping? Don't complain about tipping; complain that the employment structure relies heavily on tipping, then only patronize businesses that align with your values. Walk in, and before you order food or drink, ask what the staff makes; if it's less than minimum wage or any wage you deem fair, walk back out.

... I wish that voting with your wallet worked better than it does, but just like with the video game industry, that doesn't work all that well because the majority of consumers don't care about changing things, and sometimes even welcome the way things are now. A handful of people aren't going to make a huge difference for something like a restaurant when it's popular enough that your withheld business doesn't damage their income flow all that much.

But instead, what we have are people who go out to eat, order their steaks medium rare, and send it back when the steak is under-done. They ask for cleaner flatware. Extra napkins. They snap their fingers when their drink is empty. They expect to be treated like the most important person in a room of a hundred, and when the bill comes, and 20% is a suggested tip amount, they make TikToks about "the audacity" of the establishment suggesting they tip.

Are you sure you haven't found a very vocal minority of people and are taking it as if that's how most people treat tipping, and are even conflating tipping culture itself with them at the same time?

It's no good being irritated with people who want to break out of an abusive system (which it is) that tries to exert some sort of moral code pressure in lieu of paying fair wages. Just increase the price of the food to cover the bill and stop being dishonest about your prices. If you can't afford to pay your staff, increase your prices. If the market won't bear those increased prices then, well, get fucked I suppose, you don't have a viable business.

Exactly right.


...
PHEW, think I covered everything. Sorry for the wall