Title Change: Rape by Fraud?

[Yeq]

I think the "good reason" deceptions here (i.e. did I mention I was your husband?) are actually pretty much impossible to pull off. And that would be why they're illegal; because if you managed to convince someone you were their boyfriend when you're not, then there's clearly something wrong here; they must be, as in the show, an amnesiac or something, or (as in the comic) you're a wizard and you need a spiderfreak to rip the shit out of you.

I guess it adds a dimension of an inherent "need to protect"; that one person is either mentally incapable of making their own decisions, or that the other is...I don't know what the fuck they would be, a demigod or something, but at least using deception over and above what could possibly be construed as...well, the only word I can think of here is fair, but that's not right, because you can't make unfair things illegal. Something else, then. Get the lawyers on it.

In terms of whether the law is right...well, I'm really not sure. I think in terms of rape as deception rather than as force, there should only be laws for those victims incapable of making adult decisions. Even if the sex was under false pretences, the person still wanted to do it, and thus I don't really think it can be called rape. There's my two cents.

 

[quiet_samurai]

What? Lying to a woman to get into her pants!! Why would that even happen in this world?!?!?

Seriously, it's just a god damn TV show meant purely for entertainment. Apply to it every argument you've ever said about defending videogames and their impact on culture and young minds and then step back and think.

Also, if the only way to get laid was to be completely and absolutely honest in every way then none of us would probably be here.

And just for the record, I actually have carnal knowlwedge of a woman because she, for some reason, thought I was a pilot.

 

[Chicago Ted]

I'm just going to say this again, but this thread title has to be one of the most eyecatching ones I've seen. Good job on that.

Thanks, though I'm not getting the level of response I would have liked

Ya, well had to get off and right before I did, the title caught my attention. Did a quick read over it but I laughed at the title of it.

Now that I have a chance to though, I'm just going to say what I have thought for the past while. The system for this is stupid and screwed.

 

[Puzzles]

C'mon guys, it's Barney!

Rape is OK if it makes you laugh. Wait, no, that sounds terrible. Let me rephrase; It probably isn't a situation the writers really thought about in huge depth, it is merely a joke in bad taste. I highly doubt the writers percieved what they were writing as rape, so you should just take it as a "Barney" thing to do and have a chuckle in the way intended.

I'd also hope that women wouldn't sleep with strange men without quite a bit of confirmation that they are indeed married and have children.

 

[Halfbreed13]

Um, so?
Am I supposed to be upset? You aren't intended to look at that and say "Golly, that is such a stand up thing of him to do, more men should be like him."

 

[Manhattan2112]

I don't think the law applies in made-up-tv-sitcom world. Like, seriously. It's just a gag. Rape is awful, but you're not supposed to label the character as a rapist, just a womanizer.

 

[TheBigInterview]

cool story bro
too bad this is the most irrelevant thread i've ever heard of and invites no conversation at all.

 

[esteban138]

You know, this actually reminds me of an episode of the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. Will actually fakes a wedding (Jazz poses as a priest) to have sex with a girl. He ducks out at the last minute, but think how upsetting that is... especially since that show had a much younger demographic than How I Met Your Mother.

 

[digipinky75910]

A similar thing happened in the Spiderman comic books. A super-villain changed his physical appearances (through his powers) to appear to be Peter Parker and slept with his roommate. This, too, is rape. If the woman is consenting for what the law considers a good reason (a pre-existing relationship, love, ect.) it's protected from deceit. If the woman is consenting for what the law considers a bad reason (money, power, physical looks, ect), you can lie as much as you like to get a woman in bed and it's not rape.

Granted, this is living in a world in which someone can completely take over a person's identity with someone who presumably knows that person well, so (hopefully) involves a bit of suspension of belief.

However, this tale goes back a lil farther than Spider-man, as it is about how King Arthur was conceived (depending on the version of the tale.) Yeah, I'd call it rape.

I think there was a similar situation in a Buffy the Vampire episode that did not end well, and was basically crossing the Moral Event Horizon for the character involved.

I'm also well, kind of disappointed that your dictionary definition goes out of its way to suggest "usually of a female". We live in a society that seems to believe that men can't be raped, or if they can, it's humorous.

 

[Agema]

I think rape applies broadly in three situations: when the victim is put under duress, when the victim is incapable of giving consent (e.g. unconscious), and when the victim cannot be considered competent to give consent. The relevant factor in HIMYM is competence. Extreme intoxication or being underage applies in this regard, as does mental impairment, which could be relevant with an amnesiac.

However, these are very borderline conditions, and could easily go either way. Granted, Barney's idea sets a new low by his standards of immorality, but it's not immediately obvious to me that it would be rape. Do you have a specific law or precedent to show illegality, as the "good motive" explanation you provide does not make it fully clear.

But well spotted, anyway.

 

[SilentStranger]

I like that show, but I never understood why none of the women Barney have treated like dirt didnt just shoot him. I know, I know, it's for comedy, but it always irks me when the douchebag character never gets a comeuppance. Except the one time when he was scissorkicked in the crotch by a Rockette, that was cool

 

[Seldon2639]

A similar thing happened in the Spiderman comic books. A super-villain changed his physical appearances (through his powers) to appear to be Peter Parker and slept with his roommate. This, too, is rape. If the woman is consenting for what the law considers a good reason (a pre-existing relationship, love, ect.) it's protected from deceit. If the woman is consenting for what the law considers a bad reason (money, power, physical looks, ect), you can lie as much as you like to get a woman in bed and it's not rape.

Granted, this is living in a world in which someone can completely take over a person's identity with someone who presumably knows that person well, so (hopefully) involves a bit of suspension of belief.

However, this tale goes back a lil farther than Spider-man, as it is about how King Arthur was conceived (depending on the version of the tale.) Yeah, I'd call it rape.

I think there was a similar situation in a Buffy the Vampire episode that did not end well, and was basically crossing the Moral Event Horizon for the character involved.

I'm also well, kind of disappointed that your dictionary definition goes out of its way to suggest "usually of a female". We live in a society that seems to believe that men can't be raped, or if they can, it's humorous.

True, the whole "mistaken/deceived about someone's identity, so sex" is as old as dirt in literature and mythology. There are a few cases in the bible, then in lots of mythology dating back even to the Greeks.

I didn't provide a dictionary definition, that was some other person. I did try to find examples of when women would be raping a man due to deceit (and the cases in the bible are on point for that), but women usually are the gatekeepers of sexuality. It is much more common for a woman to be raped or deceived into sex than a man.

I think rape applies broadly in three situations: when the victim is put under duress, when the victim is incapable of giving consent (e.g. unconscious), and when the victim cannot be considered competent to give consent. The relevant factor in HIMYM is competence. Extreme intoxication or being underage applies in this regard, as does mental impairment, which could be relevant with an amnesiac.

However, these are very borderline conditions, and could easily go either way. Granted, Barney's idea sets a new low by his standards of immorality, but it's not immediately obvious to me that it would be rape. Do you have a specific law or precedent to show illegality, as the "good motive" explanation you provide does not make it fully clear.

But well spotted, anyway.

Actually, it may specifically be in Colorado (I don't know about any other states in particular). I know there are a few which require force for deceit to count as rape. Colorado, however (and this comes purely from speaking to a former police-officer-turned-attorney/my boss) has the specific good motive/bad motive dichotomy.

But, to try to clarify: The law says (basically) that sleeping with your husband/boyfriend/wife/girlfriend is a "good motive" for sex, and that sleeping with someone because he/she is rich, powerful, or has big breasts, is a "bad motive". If your motive is bad, you don't get protection from being deceived. In the same way that you can't swindle a swindler, you can't rape a girl (or boy) who willingly sleeps with someone for bad reasons. Yes, that's right, you can't rape a slut in Colorado. Well, okay, you can, but only if you do it by force. You can lie to girls all day every day, and unless you say "I'm your husband", or sneak into her bedroom pretending to be her husband, it's totally fine.

If, however, your motives are good, and pure, you're protected from deceit. Sex in marriage or a committed relationship is a "good" thing, and thus is treated as (essentially) a normal, and positive, function which is deserving of protection under the law. Thus, if you deceive someone, and his or her motives are "good" (and the reason for having sex proper), it's rape.

Again, this may just be in Colorado, but as far as I know New York (where the show and comic take place) has a similar statutory set up.

 

[sneakypenguin]

My god why can't people just accept dumb entertainment at face value.

I know it, now we get 3 pages of "serious" posting about law and debate about if its rape or not.

 

[Bat Vader]

Considering Spider-Man and How I Met Your Mother are both works of fiction I don't see how people can get mad about this stuff.

 

[Sparrow]

Yeah, I'd totally be shocked and horrified... if it weren't a freaking TV show. People get massacred in hoardes on TV shows, but you don't hear people crying "Oh, the humanity! All those innocent, real people are dying!".

I don't see why that shouldn't relate to rape.

 

[Woodsey]

What you're saying doesn't make any sense. If a woman agrees to have sex with you, then it's consensual, then it's not rape.

 

[Seldon2639]

Considering Spider-Man and How I Met Your Mother are both works of fiction I don't see how people can get mad about this stuff.

My god why can't people just accept dumb entertainment at face value.

I know it, now we get 3 pages of "serious" posting about law and debate about if its rape or not.

Yeah, I'd totally be shocked and horrified... if it weren't a freaking TV show. People get massacred in hoardes on TV shows, but you don't hear people crying "Oh, the humanity! All those innocent, real people are dying!".

I don't see why that shouldn't relate to rape.

I don't think anyone here is actually getting mad about any of this. It's just an interesting question (as I posed in the OP). But, exclude the shows from it. The law itself says what I wrote, is that right? Should the law distinguish between a "good" reason to have sex, and a "bad" one, and give one more protection than the other.

This isn't about the show itself, it's an interesting question and discussion to have about the law. And, frankly, if you can't add anything more to the discussion than "durr, it's just a television show, who cares?" without even considering the nuanced and intriguing nature of the law in question, I'd kindly ask that you GTFO.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense. If a woman agrees to have sex with you, then it's consensual, then it's not rape.

Well, no, not really. Every state has an exception for when the woman is unable to give consent, and in many states it's even more stringent than that. You can disagree with the law itself, but what I'm saying is an accurate representation of what the law holds to be true: if you deceive a woman into having sex with you, and she has a "good motive" for doing so, it can be rape.

Sex based on deceit and fraud can be rape. That's not a postulation, or an argument, that's the law.

 

[Woodsey]

Considering Spider-Man and How I Met Your Mother are both works of fiction I don't see how people can get mad about this stuff.

My god why can't people just accept dumb entertainment at face value.

I know it, now we get 3 pages of "serious" posting about law and debate about if its rape or not.

Yeah, I'd totally be shocked and horrified... if it weren't a freaking TV show. People get massacred in hoardes on TV shows, but you don't hear people crying "Oh, the humanity! All those innocent, real people are dying!".

I don't see why that shouldn't relate to rape.

I don't think anyone here is actually getting mad about any of this. It's just an interesting question (as I posed in the OP). But, exclude the shows from it. The law itself says what I wrote, is that right? Should the law distinguish between a "good" reason to have sex, and a "bad" one, and give one more protection than the other.

This isn't about the show itself, it's an interesting question and discussion to have about the law. And, frankly, if you can't add anything more to the discussion than "durr, it's just a television show, who cares?" without even considering the nuanced and intriguing nature of the law in question, I'd kindly ask that you GTFO.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense. If a woman agrees to have sex with you, then it's consensual, then it's not rape.

Well, no, not really. Every state has an exception for when the woman is unable to give consent, and in many states it's even more stringent than that. You can disagree with the law itself, but what I'm saying is an accurate representation of what the law holds to be true: if you deceive a woman into having sex with you, and she has a "good motive" for doing so, it can be rape.

Sex based on deceit and fraud can be rape. That's not a postulation, or an argument, that's the law.

You're in the US right? Well I'm English, and I'm pretty sure that we don't have such fiddly and easily misinterpreted rules on the subject, it's pretty much what I said (as far as I'm aware).

If not you lead to this whole culture where people can claim they've been raped to get someone back for whatever reason (doubt it happens a lot, but this allows it to be easier to pass of I'm sure) and is pretty stupid. What is a serious lie to someone may not be so bad to someone else.

It's too ridiculous. If you agree to have sex with someone then you agree to have sex with someone. And if they agree then it ISN'T rape. Rape is an exceptionally serious thing to have on your record, and something that is extremely unfair if it's been caused by a misinterpretation of what a man has said to a woman, and then she has had sex with him willingly because of this.

EDIT: Bit of a jumble, sorry about that. Just seems like a stupid law to me.

 

[digipinky75910]

If you consent to have sex with person X, it's one thing if you know who they are, you trust them,you know whether or not they would take care of you, not hurt, their sexual history, their responsibility of a child or an STD. A mentally disabled person, amnesiac or not, is not capable of giving said consent. By claiming to be Person X when you are not Person X, the Victim agreed to have sex with Person X, not a stranger. You are stealing trust you do not own.

The other issue here I suppose is whether it is ethical to make light of rape as opposed to making fun of death. No one has to personally live on after death, cause you're dead. But people do have to live every day with the fact that they have been raped. Sure, there's always a chance that flipping through channels you will find "humor" that offends you, and that's why this is America. We have free speech. If there was divine justice in fiction, I'd like him to be called on it, but that's just my opinion.