To me Game of Thrones will never be the same (S4E8 discussion)

IllumInaTIma

Flesh is but a garment!
Feb 6, 2012
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Zhukov said:
IllumInaTIma said:
You don't have to tell me what happened in the episode. Here comes my problem. Okay, Oberyn was caught off guard, fair enough. First of all, Oberyn is a martial artist. One of the first things they teach you in almost any existing martial art is how to regroup during your fall to minimize the damage. It's called "Ukemi" in some martial arts and this is why fighters are able to toss each other around without breaking skulls and bones. The warrior of Oberyn's level must have this kind of thing memorized to the level of reflex, ESPECIALLY considering very theatrical and agile fighting style of Oberyn. So, Oberyn was supposed to be able to regroup and simply roll away from the danger. But okay, let's assume he fell down and got stunned for a moment. So Mountain grabs and lifts Oberyn and tries to punch him in the face. You know what any sane person would do? Put a palm between his face and incoming fist. As simple as that. The Mountain didn't hold Oberyn's hands, so there was NOTHING preventing him from blocking that hit. So it's double bullshit. And my suspension of disbelief can stretch only so far when it comes to even extraordinary human beings. Unless The Mountain was injected with Captain America serum it was nigh impossible for him to do all that shit after getting stabbed, cut, poisoned and tired all the while wearing a medieval HEAVY ARMOR. You know, the kind of armor that was so heavy, that it would pin fallen knight to the ground.
He was grabbed as soon as he hit the ground.

He's being grappled by a guy twice his weight and strength. No amount of "ukemi" is getting you out of that. (Incidentally, you're either using the wrong term there, or using it wrong.)

Likewise for being punched in the face by said guy who is twice his weight and strength and whose fists are clad in metal. Putting your palm in the way ain't gonna do shit.

Lastly, being pinned to the ground by the weight of your armour is a myth. Armour was heavy, but not that heavy. Nowhere near. Armour that heavy would render it's wearer useless and hardly able to move. Besides, the men who wore armour would train in practice harnesses that were heavier than the real thing, they'd be well accustomed to the weight.
I just rewatched that scene. There was a considerable period of time between the fall and the grab.

"Correct ukemi will allow the uke to suffer the least amount of damage possible from a fall. If done correctly, the force of hitting the ground will be spread out along non-critical parts of the uke's body. By properly doing ukemi, the uke can roll out of danger and move into their next course of action without being damaged too much by hitting the ground." Pretty sure that's exactly what I meant.

And putting your palm in front of the the armored fist will do VERY MUCH shit, since now the part that hits your face is not covered in armor.
 

Colour Scientist

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Jul 15, 2009
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IllumInaTIma said:
I just rewatched that scene. There was a considerable period of time between the fall and the grab.

"Correct ukemi will allow the uke to suffer the least amount of damage possible from a fall. If done correctly, the force of hitting the ground will be spread out along non-critical parts of the uke's body. By properly doing ukemi, the uke can roll out of danger and move into their next course of action without being damaged too much by hitting the ground." Pretty sure that's exactly what I meant.

And putting your palm in front of the the armored fist will do VERY MUCH shit, since now the part that hits your face is not covered in armor.
In the scene Oberyn seemed to have already accepted his victory and the fall would have likely caught him completely off-guard. Maybe I'm inferring that from the books but that's how I see it anyway. I loved how they set it up with Oberyn's yelling and Jaime's smirking only to have victory ripped away at the last minute, leaving everyone in shock and wondering what's going to happen next.

I loved Oberyn in the show as much as anyone but I thought his death was a great way to get people to really fear for their favoured characters and take away Tyrion's "trial by combat" get out of jail free card.

To be honest, I would have seen it as more of an arse-pull if Oberyn had fallen and immediately recovered because "ukemi" or if he was pinned by the Mountain and was able to block the punches of an armour clad man-bear. It makes the story much more interesting than Oberyn winning due to his impenetrable plot armour.
 

IllumInaTIma

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Feb 6, 2012
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Colour Scientist said:
IllumInaTIma said:
I just rewatched that scene. There was a considerable period of time between the fall and the grab.

"Correct ukemi will allow the uke to suffer the least amount of damage possible from a fall. If done correctly, the force of hitting the ground will be spread out along non-critical parts of the uke's body. By properly doing ukemi, the uke can roll out of danger and move into their next course of action without being damaged too much by hitting the ground." Pretty sure that's exactly what I meant.

And putting your palm in front of the the armored fist will do VERY MUCH shit, since now the part that hits your face is not covered in armor.
In the scene in the show, Oberyn seemed to have already accepted his victory and the fall would have likely caught him completely off-guard. Maybe I'm inferring that from the books but that's how I see it anyway. I loved how they set it up with Oberyn's yelling and Jaime's smirking only to have victory ripped away at the last minute, leaving everyone in shock and wondering what's going to happen next.

I loved Oberyn in the show as much as anyone but I thought his death was a great way to get people to really fear for their favoured characters and take away Tyrion's "trial by combat" get out of jail free card.

To be honest, I would have seen it as more of an arse-pull if Oberyn had fallen and immediately recovered because "ukemi" or if he was pinned by the Mountain and was able to block the punches of an armour clad man-bear. It makes the story much more interesting than Oberyn winning due to his impenetrable plot armour.
As I said, I have absolutely no problem with Oberyn's death. None. Pragmatism beats honor? Completely agree. My main problem is with execution. To me it seemed like they established Oberyn as a fighting genius who then forgot the most basic stuff simply because he had to die. And I already explained why it seemed like he forgot the most basic stuff.
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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IllumInaTIma said:
Zhukov said:
IllumInaTIma said:
You don't have to tell me what happened in the episode. Here comes my problem. Okay, Oberyn was caught off guard, fair enough. First of all, Oberyn is a martial artist. One of the first things they teach you in almost any existing martial art is how to regroup during your fall to minimize the damage. It's called "Ukemi" in some martial arts and this is why fighters are able to toss each other around without breaking skulls and bones. The warrior of Oberyn's level must have this kind of thing memorized to the level of reflex, ESPECIALLY considering very theatrical and agile fighting style of Oberyn. So, Oberyn was supposed to be able to regroup and simply roll away from the danger. But okay, let's assume he fell down and got stunned for a moment. So Mountain grabs and lifts Oberyn and tries to punch him in the face. You know what any sane person would do? Put a palm between his face and incoming fist. As simple as that. The Mountain didn't hold Oberyn's hands, so there was NOTHING preventing him from blocking that hit. So it's double bullshit. And my suspension of disbelief can stretch only so far when it comes to even extraordinary human beings. Unless The Mountain was injected with Captain America serum it was nigh impossible for him to do all that shit after getting stabbed, cut, poisoned and tired all the while wearing a medieval HEAVY ARMOR. You know, the kind of armor that was so heavy, that it would pin fallen knight to the ground.
He was grabbed as soon as he hit the ground.

He's being grappled by a guy twice his weight and strength. No amount of "ukemi" is getting you out of that. (Incidentally, you're either using the wrong term there, or using it wrong.)

Likewise for being punched in the face by said guy who is twice his weight and strength and whose fists are clad in metal. Putting your palm in the way ain't gonna do shit.

Lastly, being pinned to the ground by the weight of your armour is a myth. Armour was heavy, but not that heavy. Nowhere near. Armour that heavy would render it's wearer useless and hardly able to move. Besides, the men who wore armour would train in practice harnesses that were heavier than the real thing, they'd be well accustomed to the weight.
I just rewatched that scene. There was a considerable period of time between the fall and the grab.

"Correct ukemi will allow the uke to suffer the least amount of damage possible from a fall. If done correctly, the force of hitting the ground will be spread out along non-critical parts of the uke's body. By properly doing ukemi, the uke can roll out of danger and move into their next course of action without being damaged too much by hitting the ground." Pretty sure that's exactly what I meant.

And putting your palm in front of the the armored fist will do VERY MUCH shit, since now the part that hits your face is not covered in armor.
He's grabbed within a second of hitting the ground. He fell within arm's reach, if not directly onto the hand that grabbed him.

As for ukemi, as you just defined it, it's falling technique. Not anti-grapple-by-very-large-very-ornery-dude technique. It wasn't falling on his arse that killed him, it was what came after.

And I maintain that putting your palm in the way of an angry metal-clad giant ain't gonna do shit. You might mitigate a blow, sure, but there's going to be more where than comes from and given that he's holding onto you with his other hand you're not going to be getting out of range any time soon. (If my memory serves, in the book The Mountain doesn't gouge his eyes and crush his head like that, he just caves it in with a flurry of punches.)

All of what you're saying amounts to "that fight scene was poorly and/or fancifully choreographed." If that is what you're saying then I'd actually agree with you. Any real fighter trying to pull that flippy twirly shit would be hacked apart in half a second.

The main beats of the fight are that Oberyn wins, then through a combination of arrogance and underestimation is caught off guard and ends up in a grapple with a hugely superior foe that he has no chance of surviving.

The TV scene got those beats more or less right and any further debate over "what if A or he could have done B" come down to nitpicking the choreography.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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IllumInaTIma said:
Colour Scientist said:
IllumInaTIma said:
I just rewatched that scene. There was a considerable period of time between the fall and the grab.

"Correct ukemi will allow the uke to suffer the least amount of damage possible from a fall. If done correctly, the force of hitting the ground will be spread out along non-critical parts of the uke's body. By properly doing ukemi, the uke can roll out of danger and move into their next course of action without being damaged too much by hitting the ground." Pretty sure that's exactly what I meant.

And putting your palm in front of the the armored fist will do VERY MUCH shit, since now the part that hits your face is not covered in armor.
In the scene in the show, Oberyn seemed to have already accepted his victory and the fall would have likely caught him completely off-guard. Maybe I'm inferring that from the books but that's how I see it anyway. I loved how they set it up with Oberyn's yelling and Jaime's smirking only to have victory ripped away at the last minute, leaving everyone in shock and wondering what's going to happen next.

I loved Oberyn in the show as much as anyone but I thought his death was a great way to get people to really fear for their favoured characters and take away Tyrion's "trial by combat" get out of jail free card.

To be honest, I would have seen it as more of an arse-pull if Oberyn had fallen and immediately recovered because "ukemi" or if he was pinned by the Mountain and was able to block the punches of an armour clad man-bear. It makes the story much more interesting than Oberyn winning due to his impenetrable plot armour.
As I said, I have absolutely no problem with Oberyn's death. None. Pragmatism beats honor? Completely agree. My main problem is with execution. To me it seemed like they established Oberyn as a fighting genius who then forgot the most basic stuff simply because he had to die. And I already explained why it seemed like he forgot the most basic stuff.
Just... let it go dude.


You're like the only person this obsessed with the scene. Ukemi? Seriously?

This isn't Viewtiful Joe XD
 

BloatedGuppy

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IllumInaTIma said:
I don't care how it was portrayed in the book.
Well...you have to accept that some of us do. Given the books are bestsellers and considered pillars of the genre, and every single time GoT has been lauded for storytelling it's because it's stayed faithful to the goddam books. I do take issue with people proclaiming that the show is "forced and bullshitty" during relatively on-book scenes.

Clearly they had trouble finding an actual 8 foot tall man to play the role of the Mountain that Rides. Gregor Clegane is one of the series slight dips into the fantastical. He's near giant size. Oberyn is an accomplished fighter, but once he becomes rage blind and cocky and believes the fight is over, he allows himself to get into grappling range, and things go very, very wrong from there.

I can appreciate the argument that things can come across awkwardly on film, but in all honesty this sounds like sour grapes about a popular character dying. Can you imagine how ludicrous it would've looked if he'd been slapping the Mountain's hands away with "Ukemi"?

From Bronn's quote in episode 5:

He?s freakish big and freakish strong, and quicker than you?d expect for a man of that size. Maybe I could take him; dance around until he?s so tired of hacking at me he dropped his sword, get him off his feet somehow, but one misstep and I?m dead.
The Mountain is not an ordinary combatant.

Magmarock said:
As a result I don't think GoT will be able to shock me again. I feel that it's blown it's load and at this point and I will no longer be moved by any further revelations or main character deaths.
Why would you watch then? If a show had lost all ability to "move" or "surprise" me, then I would most certainly shelve it.

Magmarock said:
All, because the bad guys have had one too many victories.
There are very few "bad guys" in Game of Thrones. This isn't good vs evil and you're not watching the scouring of the Shire by Sauron's orcs. A Song of Ice and Fire is meant to be a few things...

1. A subversion of traditional fantasy tropes...purehearts vs blackhearts, magical quests, etc.
2. A blending of historical drama with muted fantasy elements, with call outs to specific historical events.
3. An exploration of actions and consequences...most particularly how people...both good and bad...can be undone by their own nature.

If Pedro Pascal hadn't been so goddam charming and wooed the audience so effectively, I'm not sure people would be seeing the revenge-obsessed Red Viper through such fan-clouded eyes. He was in a fight for his (and Tyrion's) life, and he took his eyes and mind off what was happening on the field to continue his vendetta. He looked past the Mountain, an abnormality of a man known as one of the most dread combatants in all Westeros. His death was not "unfair". In the world of the show, it was "earned". Through hubris, through recklessness, through unhealthy obsession, etc, etc.

Anyway, just...settle the fuck down and finish watching this season. It's not over yet. Levy your judgments on the quality of the narrative after episode 10. Or better yet, sit down and read through books 1-3 when it's over and come back in and have a say.
 

briankoontz

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Magmarock said:
All, because the bad guys have had one too many victories. Joffrey's death was one victory for the good guys out of a dozen for the bad guys and each season thus far has ended with a very dark and mean spirited tone.
Ned Stark's death, Black Water, Red Wedding, and now Oberyn
There aren't any good guys in the show, though, at least not that are given screen time. There are undoubtedly some good peasants that the camera pans over on it's way to fixating on the photogenic noble lead characters.

All of the main characters are caught up with power-mongering at the expense of everything else, including of course human life. What are called the "good guys" like Tyrion Lannister just power-monger in a "soft" (manipulative) way, as opposed to "hard" (militant, direct) power-mongering like Tywin does. Oberyn might indeed have "sought justice" in a judge, jury, and executioner like format, but as a Prince we can surmise the travesty of death and destruction which allows him to maintain that privilege. The fact that he's good with weapons gives us some idea. Rather than root for Oberyn to "get justice", you should be rooting for a peasant revolt to get rid of all of these ridiculous and terrible people. I haven't read the books, but it seems clear that there's going to be massive death and destruction in store for Westeros and Essos if the "good" power-mongers keep fighting the "bad" ones for global control.

Game of Thrones shows what happens when power is the ruling idea in the lives of the most powerful people in the world, and how power corrupts even people without much of it. It's not a show with good guys and bad guys, it's a show with bad guys and extremely bad guys.

Quests for world domination never have any redeeming or positive features. They always include massive death and destruction followed by either failure (the world becomes an oligopoly ruled by multiple powers) or success (the world is tyrannicized by one power).
 

Snydeclyde

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So i'm gonna skip this whole 'Oberyn could of got up' debate and reply more directly with the first post.

This episode was a bit of a turning point for me as well to be fair. Not just the fight, but the whole thing.

To recap the episode: (i can't remember what happened when in the episode i'm just listing the events)

Danearys booted out Jorah, despite acknowledging he did save her from being poisoned.
The wildlings massacred Mole's town all except one person (did they know she was a wildling?)
The nights watch continued to hide.
Ramsey killed more men that had surrendered and got rewarded for all the stuff hes done by being acknowledged as a Bolton.
Sansa bailed out Baelish, the same guy who sold out Ned.
Grey Worm saw some vagine.
Arya and Dog are almost at the Eyrie
Tyrion rabbited on about a cousin who crushed beetles for a stupidly long time.
Oberyn and The Mountain happened.

There was nothing good going on there.
Danaerys has now just kind of stopped what shes doing and holed up in Mereen. Plus now shes got rid of Jorah.
I always kind of liked the wildlings as a misunderstood people (that's how they seemed to me from the show) but now they just kill everyone.
The most obviously evil northener has managed to take the north. Who would of thought a man whos castle is the Dreadfort and has a sigil of a flayed man would turn out to be evil?

So now after all that i'm just thinking 'what now', this episode gave me literally nothing to look forward to.
Some people are saying there's no good guys and bad guys, but i disagree, and i want to see something bad happen to them for once, not just to the actually interesting and likeable characters.

I'm still gonna keep watching because of the time i invested into it, but it's kind of lost that allure it had before,
kinda of like it's reached an imbalance.
 

XMark

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You know, there is one common thread to just about everyone who dies in Game of Thrones. They all have some kind of personal conviction that they follow, and they let that personal conviction blind them, and they expect the world to change itself to fit their own ideals. But then the world doesn't change and they die because of it. The survivors in the game of thrones are the ones who can adapt to situations as they come instead of trying to force everything to go their own way.
 

Phrozenflame500

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Honestly I didn't mind Oberyn's death. It's clear he would have won if he didn't get cocky near the end and a single mistake kills you when up against the Mountain. This was establish earlier with Bronn and foreshadowed again with Tyrion trying to convince Oberyn to wear armour. I'm still watching because I'm interested in what happens next between all the remaining characters.

And, while I won't spoil anything, lets just say both good and bad characters suffer the repercussions of their mistakes in GoT.
 

BloatedGuppy

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briankoontz said:
Game of Thrones shows what happens when power is the ruling idea in the lives of the most powerful people in the world, and how power corrupts even people without much of it. It's not a show with good guys and bad guys, it's a show with bad guys and extremely bad guys.

Quests for world domination never have any redeeming or positive features. They always include massive death and destruction followed by either failure (the world becomes an oligopoly ruled by multiple powers) or success (the world is tyrannicized by one power).
There's a very good passage from A Feast For Crows that underscores the theme of which you speak.

Non book readers...this passage doesn't really spoil ANYTHING of substance, it's just world building and context. You can enjoy it relatively spoiler free. Nevertheless, I will spoiler tag it.

Back on the road, the septon said, "We would do well to keep a watch tonight, my friends. The villagers say they've seen three broken men skulking round the dunes, west of the old watchtower."

"Only three?" Ser Hyle smiled. "Three is honey to our swordswench. They're not like to trouble armed men."

"Unless they're starving," the septon said. "There is food in these marshes, but only for those with the eyes to find it, and these men are strangers here, survivors from some battle. If they should accost us, ser, I beg you, leave them to me."

"What will you do with them?"

"Feed them. Ask them to confess their sins, so that I might forgive them. Invite them to come with us to the Quiet Isle."

"That's as good as inviting them to slit our throats as we sleep," Hyle Hunt replied. "Lord Randyll has better ways to deal with broken men?steel and hempen rope."

"Ser? My lady?" said Podrick. "Is a broken man an outlaw?"

"More or less," Brienne answered.

Septon Meribald disagreed. "More less than more. There are many sorts of outlaws, just as there are many sorts of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings, but they are not the same. The singers love to sing of good men forced to go outside the law to fight some wicked lord, but most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord. They are evil men, driven by greed, soured by malice, despising the gods and caring only for themselves. Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They've heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.

"Then they get a taste of battle.

"For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they've been gutted by an axe.

"They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are his now. They take a wound, and when that's still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water.

"If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world?

"And the man breaks.

"He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them?but he should pity them as well."

When Meribald was finished a profound silence fell upon their little band. Brienne could hear the wind rustling through a clump of pussywillows, and farther off the faint cry of a loon. She could hear Dog panting softly as he loped along beside the septon and his donkey, tongue lolling from his mouth. The quiet stretched and stretched, until finally she said, "How old were you when they marched you off to war?"

"Why, no older than your boy," Meribald replied. "Too young for such, in truth, but my brothers were all going, and I would not be left behind. Willam said I could be his squire, though Will was no knight, only a potboy armed with a kitchen knife he'd stolen from the inn. He died upon the Stepstones, and never struck a blow. It was fever did for him, and for my brother Robin. Owen died from a mace that split his head apart, and his friend Jon Pox was hanged for rape."

"The War of the Ninepenny Kings?" asked Hyle Hunt.

"So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was."

Magmarock said:
Oh good lord, fanboy much.
"Fanboy" is a lazy, childish insult. I guarantee you I've spent more time whining about this show than you have, and likely louder and longer.

Magmarock said:
People who live in class houses shouldn't throw stones. Telling me to calm the fuck down after replying with so many paragraphs is quite ridiculous.
I'll assume you mean "glass houses" and I'm not sure how "number of paragraphs"...in this case a staggering four...is indicative of anything. You apparently once enjoyed a television program, and now you are throwing a strop because a tertiary character died a shocking death. I am telling you to "settle the fuck down" for your own benefit. I realize this is the internet, and you likely imagine me red of face with spittle flying from my mouth as I type that, but I'm just trying to get you to settle down. If appending the work "fuck" in there for comedic emphasis was what you found so wildly offensive as to come out swinging, I apologize. I assumed a little blue language was par for the course.

Magmarock said:
There are characters in GoT with grey morality, but Obreyn and Gregor were clearly as representation of good vs evil, and anyone can see that.
Eh. The Mountain is as black as black gets, but Oberyn is most definitively grey. I do appreciate that the show didn't exactly fully color him in, though.

Magmarock said:
And you need accept that some of us don't especially those of us who open threads clearly requesting to keep the books out of it
A) That wasn't directed at you, I'm not sure why you're choosing to reply to it.
B) I'm not posting spoilers from the books, so I'm completely uncertain as to why you're acting like I'm not respecting your request in the first post.
C) You are aware the series is based ON the books, right? They're never irrelevant to what is going on.
 

Geo Da Sponge

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Ehhh, I didn't much like that bit when I read it in the books, either. It's more or less the point where I stopped enjoying them.

It's pretty much the point where all the main characters stop doing anything of significance and just get kicke around in situations which they have very little control of. It goes from "unpredictable story where things can play out in unusual ways, and reality ensues" to "People are just kind of doing stuff, for two books? I guess? Don't ask me what's actually happening though".
 

mmmikey

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I kind of feel the same way. Now I'm one of the few people who elected to wiki the shit out of the series to know who dies and how. I knew this was coming. I forgot the gruesomeness of it, but knew the outcome going into Oberyn's first appearance on the show. I wasn't expecting the character to sink hooks into me since he seemed like a very minor character in the story overall. I think a lot of it has to do with the onscreen presence of Pascal.

Even if I had read the show's script for that scene I don't think I would've been prepped for the gut wrenching death Oberyn suffered. I think there was something especially depressing about watching a character who charismatically lived life and thirsted for the aborted justice of his family reduced to a screaming, agonizing victim of a monster of a man who was responsible for his anguish robs him of any fruits of his efforts. To be fair his decision to want Tywin implicated over killing a genuine brute while he had the perfect chance was a foolish one that did end up putting him there. But it's not as if the Mountain's troubles are over either.

In context of the show it has definitely had the running pattern of killing off fan favorite characters. Largely as a mechanization of the Lannisters. And now the easily most likeable one of them is literally sentenced to death in a story that takes liberty in killing major and well liked characters. It's been pretty clear that the Lannisters are their own worst enemies though. Things have gotten far more stressed in victory for them than in the struggle and the trial has shown how divided the house is. If they possessed the same family adherence as the Starks they'd have Westeros well sewn up for some time to come.

I'll stay with it because I still enjoy the story and performances. But yes it has felt like nearly 4 seasons of seeing a lot of evil getting the upper hand. But it's been entertaining and for me better than the ambivalence I've felt for Walking Dead in its fourth season.
 

Magmarock

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Geo Da Sponge said:
Ehhh, I didn't much like that bit when I read it in the books, either. It's more or less the point where I stopped enjoying them.

It's pretty much the point where all the main characters stop doing anything of significance and just get kicke around in situations which they have very little control of. It goes from "unpredictable story where things can play out in unusual ways, and reality ensues" to "People are just kind of doing stuff, for two books? I guess? Don't ask me what's actually happening though".
Yeah I was interested in know if it had the same affect on the book readers as well. Can you tell me without spoiling, if the story gets better and if you started enjoying them again?
 

BloatedGuppy

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Geo Da Sponge said:
Ehhh, I didn't much like that bit when I read it in the books, either. It's more or less the point where I stopped enjoying them.

It's pretty much the point where all the main characters stop doing anything of significance and just get kicke around in situations which they have very little control of. It goes from "unpredictable story where things can play out in unusual ways, and reality ensues" to "People are just kind of doing stuff, for two books? I guess? Don't ask me what's actually happening though".
Issues with pacing in books 4 and 5 have been relatively well documented. There are two primary causes...

1) I'm sure you've heard Martin discuss "The Meereneese Knot". It's a term he uses to refer to the timeline surrounding events in Meereen, the geographical location of certain characters at the time certain events are happening, and what occurred to get them there. Originally he had planned for a 5 year gap between events at the end of A Storm of Swords and the beginning of the 4th book. Upon beginning to write it, he found he was over-relying on flashbacks, and decided to write it out instead. And he found that the logistics of it were an absolute nightmare. Which is why books 4 and 5 seem to be primarily comprised of people either traveling from point A to B in what feels like an extremely circuitous fashion, or chilling out in one place while events occur at glacial speed around them.

2) A reader pointed out to Martin at one point that he'd accidentally gender-swapped a horse between two books. Being caught in this relatively minor error apparently DEEPLY scarred the man (he spoke at length about how much it troubled him), and he's become consequentially obsessed with crossing every t and dotting every i. The pacing of the books has suffered.

One hopes that with books 4 and 5 (really one novel split in half) finished and most of the transitional details taken care of, Martin can get back to his original framework now and the pacing will pick back up. Due to 2, though, we can never be entirely sure.

One also suspects that Martin has become increasingly resentful of fan pressure over the years, and that ASOIAF has become something of a millstone for him. The guy always liked to flitter between projects and hobbies, and he seems to drag his feet more and more as the time pressure becomes more acute.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Magmarock said:
Yeah I was interested in know if it had the same affect on the book readers as well. Can you tell me without spoiling, if the story gets better and if you started enjoying them again?
Generally speaking I found abrupt/startling reversals of fortune to be high points in the novels, and they're generally viewed as one of the series' greatest selling points. In terms of your specific complaints though, there's a reason I told you to stick the rest of the season out and see how you felt.

In terms of the story itself, books 4 and 5 were problematic for reasons that have nothing to do with events in the narrative and more to do with issues George had writing them and the impact this had on their pacing. How the showrunners will choose to address those issues should be...interesting. Almost without exception, whenever the showrunners have become whimsical and started improvising their own material, the results have been...not good.
 

wooty

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Hahaha, this one scene is starting to crack me up, it seems no ones happy anymore.

"They changed the book! Complain"
"They followed the book! Complain".

Personally, I liked it and I'm still heavily invested in the whole world of Westeros (and beyond the narrow sea). I've never read the books myself, I have no intention of reading the books in the future, so I'm just enjoying the ride really.
 

loc978

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IllumInaTIma said:
As I said, I have absolutely no problem with Oberyn's death. None. Pragmatism beats honor? Completely agree. My main problem is with execution. To me it seemed like they established Oberyn as a fighting genius who then forgot the most basic stuff simply because he had to die. And I already explained why it seemed like he forgot the most basic stuff.
As a long-time reader of A Song of Ice and Fire... I agree. That was a very well-written scene that wound up badly choreographed. I knew the outcome, but I facepalmed when I watched it play out. They should have translated the fight more directly... but they would have needed a bigger Mountain.
 

happyninja42

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Magmarock said:
Oberyn was my favorite character in the show. Even more so then Tyrion Lannister. Form the start I liked him. He felt like the new hero the show desperately needed. I didn't expect him to last I knew he was too good to last, but I was expecting and hopping that he'd kill Gregor Clegane and maybe take out a few Lannisters before leaving or biting the dust.

Watch again, and notice where he stabs The Mountain.


Magmarock said:
You know how if you make the good guys over powered you stop caring; well I'm worried GoT is doing the same with the bad guys. It gets to a point where I've just lost hope for the good guys and whatever quasi hope they get will soon be shattered by tragedy around the corner.
Again, look where he stabs The Mountain over the course of the fight, and then remember the level of medical skill at that time.

Magmarock said:
So what do yous guys think. Was the timing of Oberyn Martell's death a disservice to the story? and how did it make you feel. How do you feel about the show's future?
Honestly I didn't even remember it from the books. It was fairly secondary to me personally. The characters that I care about don't get much screen time, so it's mostly me watching the other cast of characters, waiting for the snippets from the ones I do enjoy.

And regarding the show's future....well, since you asked to not be spoiled since you haven't read the books, it's hard to really answer that one beyond "I've read the books, I know what's coming, I'm not too worried about the course of the story as you are."