Highly Agreed
As an Essential Worker that has to take calls about that and has customers that ask me EXTREMELY specific and long winded questions about Jobkeeper despite the fact that it only got announced and rolled out like yesterday (ok exaggeration but i still had this happen literally right after it got announced), can i just say? FUCK Jobkeeper!!!!
It is a lives vs lives issue. A bad economy does kill people. There's little things you wouldn't even think of like how people that actually need hydroxychloroquine had a hard time getting it when it was just being used in trials and being tested. There's tons of deaths from depression and mental health issues during recessions. You can't get preventative screenings for other things right now. There's so many different factors, large and small, that cause health issues and deaths from a bad economy and a lockdown.No, it is not a Lives vs Lives issue. It is about either protecting the people so we can do more faster or sacrificing people for greed. Simple as that.
If the government has not provided PPE to the general public, it has not taken the necessary measures to open more so they can protect both the people and the economy.
The government's claim that we cannot do both is provably false. All opening up too soon without providing PPE to the general public will do is ensure we have more deaths, more people will be sick longer and less consumer confidence because much of the population is not willing to risk their lives and the lives of their families and understand WHY even China has had their police, physicians and even street venders wearing hazmat.
Why people keep ignoring that fact and behaving as though the US is not capable of doing what even China has been able to so is beyond me.
Maybe it is just the wealthy attempting to convince the working people that they should sacrifice themselves for " the greater good" when in reality it just erodes the working class's power further when they are too sick and "thins their herd" by killing them off as the wealthy consider the working class to be disposable and replaceable. People can't fight for their rights when they are too sick and weak to fight at all.
Contact tracing works in more rural areas, I am not seeing the point as much in populated regions as how do you do that when Walmart employees test positive in a city thousands, millions of people are who would need to be traced from there. We need to go with what we know how to do. We know PPE works. We Know now to make mass scale PPE and have the capability to do so already. The only reason we have not is Trump does not like the price tag and shot it down because he sees himself as " the negotiator" He has no problem making sure his white house staff have PPE provided to them to protect him now that it is in the white house though right? We have healthcare workers on the front lines who cannot get tests to save their lives and have been dying because of it, but Trump and his buddies can get one every day.
Trump makes one set of rules to protect himself and another set of rules to protect the people who put him there, because he is a coward, in his mind, the people should sacrifice themselves for his whims, as the people are disposable and unimportant to him and he should sacrifice himself for no one. IF he can provide his staff with masks to protect himself, he can provide them to the general public as well so they at least have a fighting chance here.
Most of those most vulnerable have no access to the PPE they need to be able to go to their doctors or to the Pharmacy to get their medications. They need to be wearing the PPE before they even leave their homes , but it is also the sick , the elderly who cannot afford the price mark ups, are not able to find somewhere to buy it at all. The sick and the elderly are being denied access to the protective equipment needed to save their lives right now and there is no plan even being made to provide them with it. We keep hearing that " those with preexisting conditions should make other arrangements" How exactly are they supposed to do that?
We have more grandparents living with their grandkids and adult children now more than ever due to decades of not paying workers enough to survive or have savings, so how can you have "healthy people return to work" and their children return to school when they can bring COVID-19 home and kill their family members with it? None of their proposals have made sense thus far.
5.6 million Gen Xers are now living with their parents or grandparents
The percentage of 33-55 year olds who live with their parents or grandparents is the highest it’s been in 50 yearswww.marketwatch.com
Millions of millennials still live at home, analysis shows
A recent analysis found that 14 million adults between the ages of 23 to 37 are living with their parents, a sign that some millennials may have financial burdens.www.foxbusiness.com
Us deaths do top Chinas:
www.cnn.com
www.seattletimes.com
www.advisory.com
www.wsj.com
www.mayoclinic.org
I am sort of worried about this approach as well though, if enough people wait the same amount of time that you do and then all go out at once, it could have a delayed impact and then have everyone who thought exactly the same way get sick all at once. behaving as if the quarantine was otherwise in effect is a good approach though.
It's not going to happen if we still live in an economy motivated by artificial material scarcity. What's more likely, and what is happening right now is that businesses and capitalists will use automation to improve their bottomline whilst cutting wages and doing what they usually do. People who live in periphery areas of production already know this, and as far back as the luddite movement in Britain, labourers knew that improvements in production always come at the cost of those whose job is to produce in order to survive. Consisdering the fact that the past 40 years of economic policymaking has been marred with austerity, privatisation and deregulation even in the face of crisis, I don't see how this won't be anything other than a new source of profit unless we drastically alter the social order in such a way so as to orientate around fulfilling basic needs and democratic workplaces rather than constantly being at the mercy of the owners and the profiteers.That is just it though, due to the advances that have been made in automation, there are going to be far less manual labor jobs to do at all.
Robots Are Displacing Manual Labor Jobs
At the Pacific Design and Manufacturing Show, robot makers acknowledged that robots will replace human workers.www.designnews.com
When we got to the point of self repairing robots, we expect it to change everything:
Robot, heal thyself: scientists develop self-repairing machines
EU project creates robotic hands that can sense and fix damage without human interventionwww.theguardian.com
Chinese factory replaces 90% of human workers with robots. Production rises by 250%, defects drop by 80%
After a factory in Dongguan, China, replaced most of its workers with robots, it witnessed a spectacular rise in productivity.www.zmescience.com
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Automation threatens 800 million jobs, but technology could still save us, says report
New analysis says governments need to act now to help a labor force in fluxwww.theverge.com
Man vs machine: automation starting to take a toll on China’s workforce
<!--/*--><![CDATA[/* ><!--*/ <!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}--> /*--><!]]>*/ Around 100 million workers in China’s manufacturing industry under threat as companies including iPhone manufacturer Foxconn are turning to robots.www.scmp.com
UPS said automated facilities will help sort almost 80% of its packages this year
UPS said nearly 70% of its packages are going through automated facilities. That's up from 50% in 2017.www.businessinsider.com
The reality is we will not have enough jobs available due to automation, so the jobs we do have available will be able to be split among more people working less hours. UBI will be necessary to be able to maintain civilization at all. We will not need people to be more productive per individual in the workforce, instead they will have more time to do what they want to do and less time having to do work they do not enjoy. The current pandemic is only making this happen faster.
It is already happening though, at least in the US and China. We have robots in Walmart's here replacing everyone from cashiers to stockers:
www.lowesinnovationlabs.com
www.ttnews.com
www.ttnews.com
www.cnbc.com
en.wikipedia.org
If you think the US death count under reporting is "massive", you're going to have to create new adjectives to describe China's under reporting. You think Chinese deaths are anywhere near close to the under 5,000 "official" count? Wuhan is where the virus started that we knew nothing about at that time and Wuhan has more residents than NYC. You think the entirety of Chinese deaths is lower than NYC's numbers? There's plenty of information out there pointing to China's immensely massive under reporting, you can't get hard data on it because of the CCP. It's not a conspiracy theory, just basic logic that a country of origin of a new virus that has over 1 billion people JUST MIGHT have more than under 5,000 deaths. It's either that or this virus is extremely weak and nothing to worry about. Unless you think China's top notch use of its own faulty PPE is why it all worked out.Us deaths do top Chinas:
Yes China likely under reported deaths, but even so, the US still has more deaths than they do, and that isn't even counting the massive US under reporting.
Until we have solid evidence proving otherwise, and not unfounded conspiracy theories, this will be the case.
That is just it, you create a bad economy by not taking the needed steps and trying to skip all the way to opening before it being safe to do so. The hydroxychloroquine problems were completely 100% Trump's fault. It was initially left off the WHO list for widespread trials for COVID-19 due to it not showing effectiveness but put back on due to Trumps Blabbering about it. The ONLY reason why there were shortages for people who actually needed it for non COVID-19 related treatments were due to Trump's bad decision making. It should not have made the cut for widespread testing to begin with.
Study finds no benefit, higher death rate in patients taking hydroxychloroquine for Covid-19 | CNN
Coronavirus patients taking hydroxychloroquine, a treatment touted by President Trump, were no less likely to need mechanical ventilation and had higher deaths rates compared to those who did not take the drug, according to a study of hundreds of patients at US Veterans Health Administration...
The recession is being made worse by not taking the proper measures to open safely. That was what I was stating above. If they want to improve the economy and save lives, they need to provide the tools necessary to do so. Like I stated above, you have to change how we do things, retrofit businesses AND provide proper PPE for the situation. Some people are going to need full Hazmat, others a mask and goggles will suffice, in other jobs they may not need much at all. It is a matter of giving them the right tool for the job, and making the necessary changes. Even if we opened things in stages, reduced capacity at first while we work through solving issues long term, it would still reduce the likelihood of longer setbacks later. We already have jobs that require people to work in full hazmat during their entire shifts, it isn't like this isn't already a thing in fields that exist, it is just we would need to expand that to apply to more fields, change how long we do shifts, break them up to shorter shifts and share them between employees rather than having one person working longer shifts. France and other nations have already long been doing these split shifts, it isn't like we do not already have models to follow here to reduce the impact.
Testing in such environments is necessary, I definitely agree on that issue, but we are not seeing that being applied either here. However, you have to remember that some of the worst superspreaders have been asymptomatic carriers. They go to work because they do not have symptoms. They are less likely to be tested at all because they look and feel fine. They go shopping, hang out with friends and family, spreading the virus to larger amounts of people. They manage to infect a lot more people due to not " feeling sick" at all. Yes, testing can find these people, but if they are asymptomatic, they are not likely to be tested due to the difficulty of obtaining a test at all right now.
Thinking that young, healthy people are not at risk is a myth. We have now found that COVID-19 is causing strokes and heart attacks in otherwise young and healthy individuals. We also have no clue yet what the long term effects are from COVID-19, we could have a reactivation of the disease with odd symptoms, not unlike a later onset of shingles in adults who had chickenpox as children, as we do not yet understand enough about these strange Kawasaki disease like symptoms yet to know if they could appear later on in life. We simply do not know enough yet about this virus to know if it is safe for people who have not had severe symptoms yet to be exposed at all. We also do not know how long someone is contagious after recovering as we have now found COVID-19 in semen and with other coronaviruses, we have found it in semen over 500 days after a patient recovered. We simply do not know enough yet to make that decision.
Healthy people in their 30s and 40s, barely sick with COVID-19, are dying from strokes
Thomas Oxley wasn't even on call the day he received the page to come into Mount Sinai Beth Israel Hospital in Manhattan. There weren't enough doctors to treat all the emergency stroke patients, and he was needed in the operating...We also have found a delayed response similar to kawaski disease in children:Why does Covid-19 kill some young, healthy people—and spare others?
Most young healthy adults who contract the new coronavirus experience mild symptoms, yet data shows a growing number are suddenly dying from Covid-19—and health experts are scrambling to figure out why the disease is so deadly for some, but not others.
Children With Kawasaki-Like Disease Positive for COVID-19
An usually high number of children have presented at ICUs across France with a Kawasaki-like syndrome that appears to be a late manifestation of COVID-19 infection, say experts.www.medscape.comMysterious Coronavirus Illness Claims 3 Children in New York (Published 2020)
A baffling ailment linked to Covid-19 has killed three young children and sickened 73 others across the state.www.nytimes.com
The problem with thinking the goal is to " not overwhelm hospitals" when the physicians treating these patients are telling us that the goal needs to be we slow it's spread until we have treatments available for them to treat the patients so that when they come to the hospital, the physicians will have the tools to actually help them. Right now, our Physicians and nurses feel helpless in the face of an unknown virus without treatments available to help them. Just thinking they have enough beds open isn't helping .. at all here.
"Currently, no medication is recommended to treat COVID-19, and no cure is available. Antibiotics aren't effective against viral infections such as COVID-19. Researchers are testing a variety of possible treatments. "
What happens when doctors lose hope? The mental, emotional stress of being on COVID-19 frontlines
Health care workers are now dealing with higher levels of depression and anxiety. They’re suffering panic attacks. Some are contemplating suicide. That’s according to a new study in the Journal of the American Medical Association.www.kcrw.com
The Coronavirus Crisis in Doctors’ Own Words: ‘A Flood of Death That I Cannot Manage’
Medical professionals are taking to social media and other channels to share their experiences treating Covid-19, with many sounding urgent pleas to the public and lawmakers as they confront a health crisis without precedent.Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) - Diagnosis and treatment - Mayo Clinic
What we really need is to buy time while we try and find treatments so that when you do come to the hospital, we have something to treat you with that will actually help you. We need to buy time for the federal government to provide PPE so everyone is able to protect themselves better than we currently are.
To help BOTH the economy and save lives, you have to focus on actually protecting the people first, otherwise the businesses that open will still have no one visiting them because they do not feel safe because they are not being kept safe by the government. What is the point of having businesses open when everyone is still afraid to use them?
Things like this are usually more publicity. Robots and AI are still not actually able to replace customer service. They tend to be too slow and too stupid. They need supervision. In the last couple of years more such trials failed and were abandoned that new ones started. Automation is not yet ready to do this reliably or efficiently. Maybe next decade.
Depends what you mean by "deadly". The mortality rate is low in comparison with things like Ebola, if it's accurate that it's about 1 - 2%. But the transmission rate is very high, so the death toll is high. In that sense it's certainly pretty damn "deadly".
Which doesn't mean they don't act as carriers.
Just because the virus is on you (or in you) doesn't mean you're definitely infectious, no. But it's very likely that you are, because the transmission rate is just that high.
Even scientists don't know. Ultimately we are not that different from the plague fearing medieval person. xD People think they can sit this one out until scientists come up with a vaccine, but it is unsure whether it's even possible to develop an effective vaccine in the first place. A vaccine for ebola also took ten years. They try to drastically shorten the process by skipping major steps which would have been unthinkable under 'normal' circumstances(ie infectious diseases that mostly ravage the third world) and going straight to human trials but the results will still remain uncertain. Even under the most hopeful scenario's a population wide vaccine is still many years away.
You can find articles about questioning China's numbers literally everywhere from BBC to India to Australia. It's not like I'm listening to Alex Jones or something. From all the information that can actually be gathered due to the CCP, just about all of it points to China's numbers being under reported by massive amounts (like you have to multiply their number many times). I'll link the Washington Post article below. It's not like this isn't the 1st time China has lied about numbers either. Just think about how much worse NYC (and the rest of the US) would be if the virus started in NYC and you had no clue what it was for weeks and it was spreading very fast all that time. That's what happened in Wuhan and China. There's no way you could contain it to anywhere near 5,000 deaths under that scenario.
When you consider all the people that have been infected where it was very minor and they didn't (couldn't) get tested, the fatality rate drops massively. It's going to be well under 1% when you get an accurate number of the people actually infected. Even conservative estimates are that the amount of infected is 20x the official number in the US. Onto the younger people and their risk of death. The numbers are showing that it's very much un-deadly for younger people; I've seen numbers for different areas showing that a third to half of deaths are from nursing homes/assisted living. The average age of death in Pennsylvania is 79 for example. The average life expectancy is also 79. I've not at all saying screw the old people and their lives don't matter, but how scared the average person is over the virus is pretty ridiculous. We need to find a solid method of keeping the virus out of those living facilities for older people along with other high-risk people. Outside of that, just doing common sense things like wearing masks in public and not doing mass gatherings should actually be all that needs to be done to keep the spread low enough.
1) It is unlikely that the virus even started in Wuhan, it is believed to have started in Guangdong, about 500 miles from Wuhan. The virus likely already mutated prior to reaching Wuhan, as Wuhan is almost entirely Type B Covid-19 and was already being spread via human to human transmission before it reached the market in Wuhan, as was likely brought there by a superspreader. Type A was found in Guangdong, and it is the original virus genome and is also closest related to the bats in that same region. We also have mutated versions of type A in both the US and Australia. Type B is the daughter of type A and type C is the daughter of type B. Type C, is nonexistent in mainland China, but is the prevalent strain that spread from Europe to the majority of infections in the US. Most of the US was infected from people travelling from Europe and C is also found in Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea.
www.newsweek.com
nymag.com
en.wikipedia.org
www.sciencealert.com
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www.firstpost.com
www.reuters.com
www.foxbusiness.com
www.marketwatch.com
www.theatlantic.com
1) It doesn't matter where it technically started. The fact that it got to Wuhan so fast that it looked like it started in Wuhan is what everything I said is based off anyway. You think only anywhere near to close to 5,000 people died in a city bigger than NYC and in a country of over a billion when in at least the 1st month of spreading, nobody knew what was really going on at that point? Barely any measures, if any, were taken during that time.
The reason I, Dr. Fauci, Dr. Bright and other Physicians all over the world are 'bringing up' all 'this stuff' is that it is relevant due to this being an unknown virus, and what we already know about this virus and others has given us reason for concern.
www.webmd.com
www.npr.org
www.medpagetoday.com
www.ctvnews.ca
It's fine to watch for all the possibilities but to base policy on something that probably has less than a 1% chance of happening and with no signs pointing towards it just doesn't make much sense. There's been several articles about people testing positive again for the virus, but there has been no sign that people are actually getting reinfected to where they are exhibiting symptoms again or becoming contagious again. Viruses are not alive so you can't kill them, showing positive test results doesn't mean that much. Also, the negative test results could've been false negatives too. That's not to say no one will ever get reinfected either as that can happen in people that have immune system disorders. I feel like if this was happening to even 10% of people, we would have much better signs pointing to this being a thing already.The reason I, Dr. Fauci, Dr. Bright and other Physicians all over the world are 'bringing up' all 'this stuff' is that it is relevant due to this being an unknown virus, and what we already know about this virus and others has given us reason for concern.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...nds-5-to-15-of-covid-19-cases-are-reactivated
Getting COVID 19 and flu would be bad luck, not good because it is the overactive immune response that is more lethal in COVID patients. You need to understand how your immune system works. The antibodies you have to fight the flu have not learned how to fight COVID 19, the overactive immune response at that point could be more lethal to you rather than to COVID.
How Does My Immune System Fight Infection?
Got germs? WebMD explains how your immune system protects and defends your good health.Why Some COVID-19 Patients Crash: The Body's Immune System Might Be To Blame
An overblown immune response could be killing a portion of the sick, and some doctors think that new treatments being tested could help at least some of those patients.Superinfections and Coinfections in COVID-19
Separating the signal from the noiseAmputations, organ failure, blood clotting: The range of complications in COVID-19 cases
Patients with severe cases of COVID-19 may need a ventilator to help the lungs, a dialysis machine to support the kidneys, and an extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) machine to assist the heart and lungs.
I don't want an extended lockdown. I want the government to do their job so we can get more done. I will respond more when I have time.
A study has been done which shows the only downside to the flu vaccine is belated activation of white blood cells in unknown infections. Immunity(in most cases) isn't indefinite but after having been sick the immune system is obviously more vigilant. The primary cause of death of covid is apoptosis of the endothelium, which is also why it affects mosly people of advanced age and who suffer from comorbities like existing respiratory or heart/vascular disease or poor lifestyle choices like obesity since those who are under 60 and in otherwise good health usually aren't vulnerable for clotting issues.
I do agree with this. Obviously in public/work spaces distancing measures should continue to be respected. Large gatherings shouldn't be permitted to take place either. But there can be a middle ground with distancing measures in public/commercial/work places but where individuals can still make their own choices. One way or the other people will have to find a way to live with this thing.
As soon as they had significant numbers of people dying they shut down Wuhan in a way far more draxonian than basically every other country. And their health system was better prepared for outbreakes due to ealier experiences.
USA
