Tokyo's Anti-Loli Bill has Passed in Committee.

[WolfEdge]

But do you ever wonder: what kind of sick person would even consider making A VIDEO GAME out of MURDER? Most of the ones I have heard of are in jail for it.
Why should a VIDEO GAME representation be exempt? Because it isn't real? Why is it even around?
What does this say about people who access it?

The above was edited slightly for content. And to prove a point.

It's one thing to punish someone for an action that directly and negatively affects the independent will of another human being. It's another thing entirely to punish someone for delivering an idea, regardless of what that idea is. And who is to determine what ideas are harmful and what ideas are acceptable?

You?

 

[macacos2]

So... does this mean I won't get anymore loli? *sadface*

Nah


This means you won't be getting anything at all since 80% of everything will be banned (anime related of course)

 

[Kaboose the Moose]

Absolutely wretched this bill is.

It is an attack on personal liberties, no matter how you look at it. If a person wishes to create loli hentai, or wishes to view loli hentai, they have every goddamn right to. It does not matter how to depraved or obscene it is. It does not matter whether it has any kind of merit or value. All that matters is that people are free to do as they please.

So you comfortable with pedophiles and the sharing and possession of child porn then? Last I checked it didn't have any merit or value to it but somehow the people who wished to view such things or created such things..were imprisoned, something about depicting minors in a sexual manner being a criminal offense and all that.

The law doesn't see "abuse of personal liberty" as a defense when indulging in the depraved acts towards minors.

Right, and because I'm into BDSM I want to rape, torture, and enslave people. And I want to do so more than the people who watch this animated stuff obviously, since I do it with real people. Do you honestly believe that? That a fetish can't be satisfied without taking it to it's extreme? That situational factors, like having a willing participant in my case, or not harming anyone in lolis, might be a contributing factor of what someone's willing to do? Because it is.

Assuming that undetectable effects are no matter of concern is an implicit assumption. Believing that because something is harmless to X (you, in this case) it must be harmless to Y (everyone else) is a fallacy, Ostrich?s fallacy to be exact. That I honestly believe!

That said, I do believe that fetishes can be enjoyed without going to the extreme. As in your case, as you mentioned, you have a willing participant and what I can assume is a healthy relationship. That right there is solid, that's stable, that's not extreme - especially if it's consensual. If you were only turned on by murdering and raping people (which is my definition of an extreme fetish)..then yes, I would have a concern for you and my safety. Who wouldn't? If someone came up to you and said that person A gets his jollies by torturing unsuspecting people - wouldn't you be worried slightly?

More to the point- BDSM is not illegal, neither are most fetishes. They are lifestyle choices. Depicting minors in sexual situations however is not legal, no amount of "it's taking away my personal liberties" is going to change that law. Neither will the fact that going to lengths (seeking out, drawing, acting out) sexual situations with children be seen as harmless, ethical or "just for shits and giggles". In my opinion not only is it FUBAR but counts as going to extreme as well.

If your brain needs arousal via simulated sexual content containing children, then there is an inherent potential risk it will seek it out in real life. Much like if you are aroused by red headed women, you are likely to seek out a red-headed women for sex. The two important differences between these scenarios?

- The former can never, ever be consensual
- At the end of the day, the former will see a child being hurt.

 

[The Lunatic]

The above was edited slightly for content. And to prove a point.

It's one thing to punish someone for an action that directly and negatively affects the independent will of another human being. It's another thing entirely to punish someone for delivering an idea, regardless of what that idea is. And who is to determine what ideas are harmful and what ideas are acceptable?

You?

It's worth noting, that Video Games featuring killing and Animated child porn are, in terms of morally, two very different things.

Over the ages of man, we've been conditioned to simple believe "The Enemy" as an acceptable target for whatever punishment we feel like. We dehumanize and simply accept that in life, there are enemies to ourselves, to the only way of defeating such people is to kill them.

Millions of deaths, countless lives ruined, families broken and civilizations destroyed all for the sake of another person's design to "Defeat their enemies."

As such, we're fine with the idea. Morally we have no objections to it, thus nobody really cares much when it happens in a video game.

However, in comparison, with animated child porn, you're basically taking something which has been taboo, illegal and punishable by death, and basically saying "It's okay, it's only a depiction, and these guys enjoying it and getting off to it are doing nothing wrong."

Which, understandably, is going to ruffle a few feathers, don't you think?

Added to this, laws are often based on morality and you now know why it's considered illegal in a lot of countries, (Mine included.) and is generally looked down upon.

 

[WickedSkin]

Fight the people! Go government!

Oh the modern world is growing more and more conservative. USA has gone all French on us, the French are growing louder and Japan has fallen victim of the western hit-mindset of "People needs protection from themselves and everyone and everything else". Now let us rejoice in "The government always knows best, is infallible and always rules with my best interest in mind"

Nah I really do not care about Japan or their "loli". I just hate ridiculous laws and massive government power. Oh also the fact that people support such crap.

Yay good 'ol christian values! Everyone wear cloths and do not poison yourself if you wish to do so!

 

[Kaboose the Moose]

And D&D actually involves devil worship, because otherwise it would never have been looked down on by society, right?

Unless I am very mistaken, no one believes that D&D involves devil worship nowadays. Even if they did there isn't a law preventing D&D being sold at the the games now is there? Since you still can't buy child porn without getting arrested, I guess the social stigma is still there. .
.
I didn't really understand what point you were trying to make..but I hope you got it.

No, you couldn't. Doing these things is a violation, whether the child can comprehend the actions or not.

That was my point! Similarly depicting minors in such a manner is a violation (or can be prosecuted as obscenity under the Miller test, in the United States), even if its a cartoon.

Take the word 'sexual' out of that sentence. Do you still agree with it? Probably not--so why is fake criminal activity different from fake criminal sexual activity?

Fake criminal activity (depending on the content) can vary from violence to gratuitous. Fake sexual activity is seeing as obscene. Need I go on?

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

Well I had no idea what loli is so I did a quick google images and uh.. yeah.. so it's underage girl hentai. Seems like that should be regulated to me.

But, the fact that this bill also includes anything harmful to children is a little worrisome. But then again, it's only being moved to an adult section, so what the hell right? But then, it's still adults looking at underage girls... EHH WHATEVER.

Japan is weird.

 

[CarpathianMuffin]

If they specify things a bit more, I'd be fine with it passing. Otherwise, there's a lot that could be misconstrued as harmful to children. Most are going to find the internet at some time, and will learn about porn. Doing that won't stop them from doing so.

So I don't know, I don't think the bill will help anything in the long run, and could do more to hinder the Japanese people than anything.

 

[Mstrswrd]

The anti-loli bill (bill 156), which has since mutated into a general anti-crazy-sex bill, has passed in committee. This means that anything deemed harmful will be pushed into the "adults only section" and will be tightly regulated. There's lots more on the story here, and I suggest that you give it a read. http://www.japanator.com/fffuuu-tokyo-s-anti-loli-bill-passes-in-commitee-17722.phtml&mainnav=&track

I actually disagree with Japanator's take on the story. I think that the bill is a good thing, as much of the things that the bill is banning really has no place anywhere other than the shelfs of the extremely depraved. After seeing some crazy loli stuff during my (very) brief tenure on 4chan, I am actually happy that this kind of material will be banned.
And yes, I know that freedom of speech is necessary, and that things like this can be used to make an artistic statement, but where a loli hentai differs from, say, Lolita or Oedipus is that the medium is drastically different. Whereas Oedipus was meant to be an allegory for the importance of understanding fate and the power of the Gods, a loli image is clearly designed for the viewer to get off on, and should (in my opinion) not have any right to exist.
So what's your take on the story? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

The bill is explicitly bad. The reason being? It's too vague. It's not a legitimate bill, trying to protect the people from harmful stuff. If it was, than it would cover movies and books as well. Want to know why it doesn't? Governor Ishihara, the governor of Tokyo, and foremost supportor of the bill, has written some of the most absolutely twisted rape stories ever conceived by a human mind. I read a bit of one translated, and had to stop. Me. a regular of /b/. That's how nasty they get. And those are protected by this new law.

The real prblem is that the bill is too losely defined. It has no guidelines, it has no limits, and it has no real borders. It's basically like this; it goes to the government. The government doesn't like it (the manga). It's banned/now over 18 only. This could be for any reason. They can say anything, and it has to be accepted. Basically, whatever the government likes gets passed, while whatever the government hates does not.

Oh, and Ishihara has openly stated that he doesn't just dislike manga, he hates it with a passion. Anime as well. He thinks otaku are horrible people (and I don't just mean the neets, but even the casual fans, who are, for some odd reason, defined as Otaku as well in Japan), that gays are freaks and shouldn't exist, and that foreigners need to get out of Japan and never return.

Excuse me if I have a problem with anything that this guy suggests.

Anyway, it's especially bad because this law basically allows the government to become a thought police/moral police. You read what they want you to read, and you see what they want you to see. And Japan has a history of this kind of stuff; until other countries basically kicked them in the face in the early 1900's and told them to "Cut that shit out," anything the government wanted to ban it could, simply because. And now they're back on that path. Oh happy fucking day.

As for Loli manga, I can state, as someone who doesn't give a shit about any kind of pornography that, well, the wonders of being asexual is that nothing, not females nor males, arouses me, meaning that I have no opinion on Loli and Shota hentai as sexual things, but simply as yet more porn tat exists and that I don't care about.

As such, I say it should exist. Japan has some of the absolute lowest rates of child rape/molestation (and general rape, actually) in the developed world, and their the place that all of the weird fetish material comes from. Yeah, it's weird, but I'd rather people fap/shlick to the hentai than go touch a real child. People may argue that it inspires people to go rape children, but than I can argue that it satiates the desries of and prevents others from doing just that, and we will reach a stand still.

I apologize if I was rude. My anger is not directed towards you; instead, this is something I feel passionately about, and can do literally nothing about. Impotent rage is perhaps the worst of all, because it's rage at onesself for not being able to do anything, which just gets you angrier, in a horrible cycle.

Anyway, I would very much enjoy a response (to the first part more than the Loli/Shota part. That arguement will never get anywhere.) Finally, I leave with this; Neon Genesis Evangelion would be one of the banned Manga/Anime. Most likely, due to the violence content (and the very, very, occasional full frontal nudity), so would Dragonball and DBZ (these two are me extrapolating some info about the law, while the NGE thing is actually a concern that politicians themselves have actually had to deal with).

 

[WolfEdge]

The above was edited slightly for content. And to prove a point.

It's one thing to punish someone for an action that directly and negatively affects the independent will of another human being. It's another thing entirely to punish someone for delivering an idea, regardless of what that idea is. And who is to determine what ideas are harmful and what ideas are acceptable?

You?

It's worth noting, that Video Games featuring killing and Animated child porn are, in terms of morally, two very different things.

Over the ages of man, we've been conditioned to simple believe "The Enemy" as an acceptable target for whatever punishment we feel like. We dehumanize and simply accept that in life, there are enemies to ourselves, to the only way of defeating such people is to kill them.

Millions of deaths, countless lives ruined, families broken and civilizations destroyed all for the sake of another person's design to "Defeat their enemies."

As such, we're fine with the idea. Morally we have no objections to it, thus nobody really cares much when it happens in a video game.

However, in comparison, with animated child porn, you're basically taking something which has been taboo, illegal and punishable by death, and basically saying "It's okay, it's only a depiction, and these guys enjoying it and getting off to it are doing nothing wrong."

Which, understandably, is going to ruffle a few feathers, don't you think?

Added to this, laws are often based on morality and you now know why it's considered illegal in a lot of countries, (Mine included.) and is generally looked down upon.

I can't say you aren't right here, because you are. That being said, the second people stop fighting against these kinds of things is the second the pendulum starts to unstoppably swing in a direction I don't happen to like. Sure, I'm morally against child porn. What sane person isn't? But this isn't child porn, is it?

It's the IDEA of child porn.

This is a difference that MUST have clarification. If it's okay to censor one kind of idea, then that sets the stage for MORE censoring in areas that once remained unimpeachable, using the same philosophy to do so. I have no right to say what you can and cannot look at, because I do not have the desire to let you have that same control over me, and the things I like to look at. It's a dangerous, slippery slope that I feel too few people take the time to see.

"They came for the Christians and I said nothing... because I was not a Christian."

 

[tthor]

While I don't disagree with you, OP, why doesn't Loli have a right to exist? Because you find it disgusting?

no, because loli is essentially child porn (tho often in an animated form). being it is essentially animated child porn, that means it is essentially encouraging pedophilia, which is essentially encouraging a form of rape in some cases

 

[Arisato-kun]

Thank fuck!

Can I just say, that Japan has some really, really, really disturbing fetishes on their shelves. RapeLay [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay] is one just example.

I am all for the freedom of expression/speech...but you can go too far. Japan has a history of flirting with the border of sanity with this kind of shit and I am glad that this bill passed.

If you are reading this Japan, I am happy that you have matured a lot in my eyes.

Have you actually read into the bill? It's a lot more than that. The bill is worded so vaguely that anything that's considered inappropriate for minors has the potential to be pulled from the shelves. Anything from a borderline hentai show to a harmless comedy with some sex jokes can be considered inappropriate and will have to be sold in a shop that's allowed to sell hentai. Shows from Highschool of the Dead to OreImo to Welcome to the NHK all would have potential to be pulled.

This is a terrible blow to the industry and anime's going to decline in the coming years. I am very sad.

 

[Jim555]

Just for clarification if you really don't mind.

A. Was this law the cause of the recent boycotting on TAF 2010?

B. Will long-runners be affected by and what are those series?

 

[zehydra]

While I don't disagree with you, OP, why doesn't Loli have a right to exist? Because you find it disgusting?

no, because loli is essentially child porn (tho often in an animated form). being it is essentially animated child porn, that means it is essentially encouraging pedophilia, which is essentially encouraging a form of rape in some cases

in the same way that Call of Duty encourages people to kill people?

 

[zama174]

You do realize that this will essentially cripple the japanese anime, manga, and games industries, right?

If there's an anime, manga, or game you like, chances are it'll be either banned or discontinued due to fear of being regulated under this law. Even if they would be safe.

Also, Japan's economy is already on the verge. Severely crippling such large industries is practically suicidal.

Yes it is restricted to Tokyo, but the fact this is happening at all is just ridiculous. I'm against child-porn and all that, but banning all forms of sex/porn is just ridiculous. Under very vague terms no less.

Wonder how this will affect Atlus. I'd hate to see them stop making games because of this.

Also, why is it only going after anime/manga/games? So they're saying real sex with real people is fine, but fake sex isn't?

All this "think of the children!" bullshit needs to stop.

I agree. This just down right pisses me right the fuck off.. This ban is going to have huge impacts on existing anime, and everything to come. Even if it is only in Tokyo, Tokyo is the capital of this shit! Either companies will have to move there HQ, or the anime/manga/game market in Japan, and subsequently around the entire world, will be affected adversely. This ban has huge ramifications that I don't think these politicians realize. I hope it gets repealed soon...

 

[Canadamus Prime]

*sigh* Don't they realize that banning it will only make people want it more. It's the whole Forbidden Fruit mentality. It's like drugs (the street variety), they wouldn't be nearly as big and there probably wouldn't be a drug trade if they weren't illegal.

 

[Arisato-kun]

I'm confused. Is the argument against this that it's too vague or that children should have access to explicit material that include things like child rape?

I can see the former. But anyone who believes the latter is sick.

The main argument is that it's too vague. The Tokyo government can essentially thought police any anime or manga they don't like.

 

[zama174]

While I don't disagree with you, OP, why doesn't Loli have a right to exist? Because you find it disgusting?

no, because loli is essentially child porn (tho often in an animated form). being it is essentially animated child porn, that means it is essentially encouraging pedophilia, which is essentially encouraging a form of rape in some cases

http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=https://blogs.emory.edu/animec/files/2010/08/kaichou-wa-maid-20-37.jpg Your right.. Because that makes me want to go screw every little kid walking down the street..... Just like all my video games make me want to kill people and hijack planes.