Tolkien, Overrated?

[Jaime_Wolf]

I agree so heartily. It fills me with happiness to know that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Whenever I've tried to read it (I've gotten halfway through RotK about four times and never managed to finish it), I've always had the feeling that the majority of LoTR is just people sitting around campfires not talking or discussing completely unimportant things. Throw in a ten page description of the campfire and you've lost me. I'm all for descriptive writing, but I feel like he tends to go overboard and put a lot of effort into describing completely inconsequential things that don't even really add to the mood or setting. It seems to lack a lot of control. Worst of all, he has absolutely no ability to write action scenes. Remember how awesome Helm's Deep was in the films? Go back and find it in the book, it's like two pages.

That said, I think the stories and the world are absolutely great (especially his languages). As others have said, The Hobbit is wonderful too given that it avoids the stupidly long campfire periods. This is why adaptations like the films tend to go so well: he set up a great story and world and in the hands of a better storyteller, you can really see the strengths of his writing much better.

It's probably worth remembering that he didn't even set out to write a good story as his primary goal - he just wanted to create a historical and social context for his languages (he makes this clear in several of his letters).

Also, I highly recommend the Silmarillion. The awesome story and setting are there in a more mythological setting with considerably less obfuscating description. Definitely my favourite Tolkien work.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

Tolkien has recieved my scorn because of his insistent misspellings have been borrowed by other fantasy authors.

The word I am talking about is of three letters. The word I am talking about is "Ork"

It annoys me that so many franchises and authors have borrowed his error, and slammed on a C in the word inplace of the proper K.

This problem is so prevailent that the few franchises that don't copy his error,(E.G: Warhammer, a franchise that I know nothing about) are mistaken as something written by some one trying to to be hip by using the letter K in the place of the proper C (It looks like the trope "Xtremely Kool Letterz"http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XtremeKoolLetterz ).

So to phrase the 4th paragraph in simpler terms: in this case senario, spelling the word right makes you look like a try-hard.

Is Tolkien that guy who ripped off Gary Gygax?

Yup.

He stated specifically that he borrowed it from Old English, in which it was spelled with a c. You know, like Beowulf, as in from a time before what we call "German" was a uniform, codified language. Besides, the use of the continental spelling "orke" wasn't seen until about 600 years after its use in Beowulf, in which, again, it was spelled with a c.

But I'm sure your scorn causes him to turn over in his grave in agony.

Are people REALLY arguing that the historical (and foreign!) spelling of a word is the "right" one? Am I wrong if I write "tsar" because it should really be царь? Actually, perhaps the "right" spelling is the one in glagolitic (I can't type in glagolitic). To make matters even worse, you're arguing that the historical spelling is the right one when the historical spelling was regional, dialectal, and to some extent idiolectal.

It's like a whole new crazy form of the etymological fallacy.

 

[PhiMed]

Tolkien has recieved my scorn because of his insistent misspellings have been borrowed by other fantasy authors.

The word I am talking about is of three letters. The word I am talking about is "Ork"

It annoys me that so many franchises and authors have borrowed his error, and slammed on a C in the word inplace of the proper K.

This problem is so prevailent that the few franchises that don't copy his error,(E.G: Warhammer, a franchise that I know nothing about) are mistaken as something written by some one trying to to be hip by using the letter K in the place of the proper C (It looks like the trope "Xtremely Kool Letterz"http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XtremeKoolLetterz ).

So to phrase the 4th paragraph in simpler terms: in this case senario, spelling the word right makes you look like a try-hard.

Is Tolkien that guy who ripped off Gary Gygax?

Yup.

He stated specifically that he borrowed it from Old English, in which it was spelled with a c. You know, like Beowulf, as in from a time before what we call "German" was a uniform, codified language. Besides, the use of the continental spelling "orke" wasn't seen until about 600 years after its use in Beowulf, in which, again, it was spelled with a c.

But I'm sure your scorn causes him to turn over in his grave in agony.

Are people REALLY arguing that the historical (and foreign!) spelling of a word is the "right" one? Am I wrong if I write "tsar" because it should really be царь? Actually, perhaps the "right" spelling is the one in glagolitic (I can't type in glagolitic). To make matters even worse, you're arguing that the historical spelling is the right one when the historical spelling was regional, dialectal, and to some extent idiolectal.

It's like a whole new crazy form of the etymological fallacy.

He was, but no, I was saying his complaint was invalid because the word was, indeed, coined (at least in modern English) by Tolkein. But thank you for establishing that you consider yourself above the discussion.

 

[kikon9]

I don't hate tolkien, I like what he did for the fantasy genre. BUT, I never liked his books very much.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

Tolkien has recieved my scorn because of his insistent misspellings have been borrowed by other fantasy authors.

The word I am talking about is of three letters. The word I am talking about is "Ork"

It annoys me that so many franchises and authors have borrowed his error, and slammed on a C in the word inplace of the proper K.

This problem is so prevailent that the few franchises that don't copy his error,(E.G: Warhammer, a franchise that I know nothing about) are mistaken as something written by some one trying to to be hip by using the letter K in the place of the proper C (It looks like the trope "Xtremely Kool Letterz"http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XtremeKoolLetterz ).

So to phrase the 4th paragraph in simpler terms: in this case senario, spelling the word right makes you look like a try-hard.

Is Tolkien that guy who ripped off Gary Gygax?

Yup.

He stated specifically that he borrowed it from Old English, in which it was spelled with a c. You know, like Beowulf, as in from a time before what we call "German" was a uniform, codified language. Besides, the use of the continental spelling "orke" wasn't seen until about 600 years after its use in Beowulf, in which, again, it was spelled with a c.

But I'm sure your scorn causes him to turn over in his grave in agony.

Are people REALLY arguing that the historical (and foreign!) spelling of a word is the "right" one? Am I wrong if I write "tsar" because it should really be царь? Actually, perhaps the "right" spelling is the one in glagolitic (I can't type in glagolitic). To make matters even worse, you're arguing that the historical spelling is the right one when the historical spelling was regional, dialectal, and to some extent idiolectal.

It's like a whole new crazy form of the etymological fallacy.

He was, but no, I was saying his complaint was invalid because the word was, indeed, coined (at least in modern English) by Tolkein. But thank you for establishing that you consider yourself above the discussion.

Happy to help.

 

[RJ Dalton]

See, you have to look at what Tolkien was trying to accomplish with his work. When you consider that he was trying to write something that was a representation of his studies in Anglo-Saxon literature and linguistic structures, the story does that fabulously. I've never seen any other set of stories that gives the feel of AS literature (I.E. Beowulf) like Tolkien's novels. That said, that is a bit of a downfall, because AS literature was never meant to be read, but always supposed to be listened to. That style isn't quite as engaging when you read it off the page and the style of writing has changed and become a lot more concise than it used to be, so there's a lot that doesn't match up with our idea of good writing today.
Ultimately, whether or not you like Tolkien's work comes down to just that; whether or not you like it. On it's own merits, it was really good, accomplishing everything the author intended to and still being an interesting and entertaining story. It's not perfect, no, but nothing ever is.

 

[Nieroshai]

While Tolkien is not T3H 83$T 3V4R!!1, he was a good author especially for his time, and can still be enjoyable.

 

[MrGseff]

Personally I loved Tolkien's work in LOTR and The Hobbit, I have yet to read any other of his work.
I dont really plan to read any of his other books as of yet because I cant stop reading the Song of Ice and Fire series by George. R. R. Martin. Its very different to Tolkien so i would recommend it if you do or dont like tolkien

 

[ThirdEye95]

What other writers do you feel are overrated and why?

Terry. Fucking. Pratchett.
Why?
Because I have read his books and didn't enjoy them. Also every freaking fangirl out there just starts to squeal when you mention him and its getting old.

:O but... he has a space sword.
And I thought I was going to get flamed, you're in for a shitstorm of anger.

Yeah I'm ready for it. I'm always defending why I hate him. People are always recommending me books too and I've just had enough. I don't like him, and I shouldn't have to defend that anymore than you do for not liking Tolkien.

Yeah... I don't know if you've been following the thread but I've basically been defending myself the entire time. Not that either one of us should really have to.

Yeah I have noticed lol. I am a fan of tolkien, but I completely agree with your original reasons for why you don't like him. I had to force myself through the first half of the first book, but then I loved the rest. I don't blame anyone who doesn't do the same or doesn't enjoy his lengthy descriptions.

In any case, what should it matter, it's your opinion...you don't have to like and just because it's popular doesn't mean you're wrong either.

Have you read any of the A Song of Ice and Fire series? Honestly I after I read those books I realized how boring and one dimensional most characters in fantasy are. George RR Martin is the best author when it comes to characterization I've ever read.

I just started reading the series recently, its fucking amazing. Game of Thrones is the best fantasy novel I've read since LOTR (possibly even better)

 

[GrimTuesday]

What other writers do you feel are overrated and why?

Terry. Fucking. Pratchett.
Why?
Because I have read his books and didn't enjoy them. Also every freaking fangirl out there just starts to squeal when you mention him and its getting old.

:O but... he has a space sword.
And I thought I was going to get flamed, you're in for a shitstorm of anger.

Yeah I'm ready for it. I'm always defending why I hate him. People are always recommending me books too and I've just had enough. I don't like him, and I shouldn't have to defend that anymore than you do for not liking Tolkien.

Yeah... I don't know if you've been following the thread but I've basically been defending myself the entire time. Not that either one of us should really have to.

Yeah I have noticed lol. I am a fan of tolkien, but I completely agree with your original reasons for why you don't like him. I had to force myself through the first half of the first book, but then I loved the rest. I don't blame anyone who doesn't do the same or doesn't enjoy his lengthy descriptions.

In any case, what should it matter, it's your opinion...you don't have to like and just because it's popular doesn't mean you're wrong either.

Have you read any of the A Song of Ice and Fire series? Honestly I after I read those books I realized how boring and one dimensional most characters in fantasy are. George RR Martin is the best author when it comes to characterization I've ever read.

I just started reading the series recently, its fucking amazing. Game of Thrones is the best fantasy novel I've read since LOTR (possibly even better)

Are you aware of the HBO series coming out around April?

 

[Duskwaith]

Just like Shakespeare, if you actually study his writing you really do find out just how beautifully crafted it is.

Tolkien's descriptions are like LSD for the imagination. Yes they are very descriptive but you can just tell he was trying his hardest to portray the world he had going on in his head for the benefit of the reader.

 

[higgs20]

tolkien is, well overrated is the wrong word because as many people have stated fantasy stories as we know them pretty much exist due to this man, but while I love some of the shorter books like the hobbit (easily my favourite book as a child) I find the lord of the rings really can overstretch things sometimes which can make them a truly difficult read. They aren't helped by the fact it is now massively out of it's time and has some pop-culture references that your grandparents probably wouldn't get. the story of the lord of the rings is one filled with amazing detail, interesting sub-plots and supporting characters not to mention one of the most epic adventure/underdog stories ever told and it will always be a pillar of the literary world, but I think after some 80 years the style of writing is starting to stagnate.

 

[The Boy in the Hat]

To be honest, the Fellowship of the Ring was dull up until the Mine of Moria. After that, well... <3
I find that with older fantasy books it takes a while to figure out the characters. It's just the way they wrote in those days, but in more modern fantasy works and literature in general I feel like I know the characters.
Probably my best example of this would be The Belgariad, which is much the same as LOTR, only the characters are more... real.
The cantankerous wizard, the overprotective aunt, the spoiled princes... all wonderfully drawn.

 

[PhiMed]

Tolkien has recieved my scorn because of his insistent misspellings have been borrowed by other fantasy authors.

The word I am talking about is of three letters. The word I am talking about is "Ork"

It annoys me that so many franchises and authors have borrowed his error, and slammed on a C in the word inplace of the proper K.

This problem is so prevailent that the few franchises that don't copy his error,(E.G: Warhammer, a franchise that I know nothing about) are mistaken as something written by some one trying to to be hip by using the letter K in the place of the proper C (It looks like the trope "Xtremely Kool Letterz"http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XtremeKoolLetterz ).

So to phrase the 4th paragraph in simpler terms: in this case senario, spelling the word right makes you look like a try-hard.

Is Tolkien that guy who ripped off Gary Gygax?

Yup.

He stated specifically that he borrowed it from Old English, in which it was spelled with a c. You know, like Beowulf, as in from a time before what we call "German" was a uniform, codified language. Besides, the use of the continental spelling "orke" wasn't seen until about 600 years after its use in Beowulf, in which, again, it was spelled with a c.

But I'm sure your scorn causes him to turn over in his grave in agony.

Are people REALLY arguing that the historical (and foreign!) spelling of a word is the "right" one? Am I wrong if I write "tsar" because it should really be &#1094;&#1072;&#1088;&#1100;? Actually, perhaps the "right" spelling is the one in glagolitic (I can't type in glagolitic). To make matters even worse, you're arguing that the historical spelling is the right one when the historical spelling was regional, dialectal, and to some extent idiolectal.

It's like a whole new crazy form of the etymological fallacy.

He was, but no, I was saying his complaint was invalid because the word was, indeed, coined (at least in modern English) by Tolkein. But thank you for establishing that you consider yourself above the discussion.

Happy to help.

Help? Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[HK_01]

Yep, he's overrated. The Hobbit was very good, but Lord of the Rings is actually quite boring, in my opinion. I know that there are many people who absolutely love those books though, so maybe it's just not meant for someone like me.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Overrated? Hardly.
Overexposed? Most certainly.

 

[Woodsey]

I'll say that The Silmarillion is pretty crap, but The Hobbit is like a mind-wank.

 

[ThirdEye95]

What other writers do you feel are overrated and why?

Terry. Fucking. Pratchett.
Why?
Because I have read his books and didn't enjoy them. Also every freaking fangirl out there just starts to squeal when you mention him and its getting old.

:O but... he has a space sword.
And I thought I was going to get flamed, you're in for a shitstorm of anger.

Yeah I'm ready for it. I'm always defending why I hate him. People are always recommending me books too and I've just had enough. I don't like him, and I shouldn't have to defend that anymore than you do for not liking Tolkien.

Yeah... I don't know if you've been following the thread but I've basically been defending myself the entire time. Not that either one of us should really have to.

Yeah I have noticed lol. I am a fan of tolkien, but I completely agree with your original reasons for why you don't like him. I had to force myself through the first half of the first book, but then I loved the rest. I don't blame anyone who doesn't do the same or doesn't enjoy his lengthy descriptions.

In any case, what should it matter, it's your opinion...you don't have to like and just because it's popular doesn't mean you're wrong either.

Have you read any of the A Song of Ice and Fire series? Honestly I after I read those books I realized how boring and one dimensional most characters in fantasy are. George RR Martin is the best author when it comes to characterization I've ever read.

I just started reading the series recently, its fucking amazing. Game of Thrones is the best fantasy novel I've read since LOTR (possibly even better)

Are you aware of the HBO series coming out around April?

Yeah I am, really looking forward to it xD I'll have to see how far through I can get with the novels before then though...

 

[laststandman]

My problem with Tolkien is I feel that he draws things out, especially descriptions. Also he has gone so in much detail that it kind of ruins the experience for me. It's one thing to develop you're world but there is such a thing as over developing it. It makes it so the reader is less involved in the telling of the story, you can't even think about what the rock looks because he has already spent half a page describing it.

I hear a lot of people say that this is why they dislike Tolkien, yet I can't see that in his writing. Do you think you could give me an example of what you're talking about? I don't doubt you, or anyone else, but people saying this about Tolkien is one of the things that shied me away from reading LOTR in the first place. However upon reading LOTR I did not find it to be entirely accurate.

 

[HerrBobo]

Dunno if I would say he was over-rated, his books are dated, thats for sure.