Too much diversity.

[Fallow]

You insist on those wanting diversity proving that it's warranted to have it (While you make an arbitrary distinction between diversity and variety) and when people express a wish to have it, you dismiss it as invalid because it's just "opinion".

No, I insist those claiming that diversity is self-evidently beneficial or necessary in videogames show something to support that claim. Why would I demand that someone justify a personal preference? Is it even possible to do so?

How about you provide me with a study that proves that there is a positive benefit to not change anything? Because as it is, you only seem opposed to change for the sake of it.

I don't need to since I've never made such a claim.
Change/Progress is inevitable, and thus not changing anything is impossible.

Do you believe diversity will hurt gaming? If so, how?

I don't think diversity will do anything at all to gaming, but I have been wrong in the past.

Diversity will come as a natural result of the gaming industry expanding to different regions. Africans will make African games with African protagonists that appeal more to Africans. China will make Chinese games with Chinese protagonists that appeal to China. Japan will make Japanese games with rapist squid protagonists that appeal to the Japanese.

For a supporting data point (so not very significant), look at Polen. TW3 is most "representative" of slavic culture, and CDPR is a polish company. For more data points, someone with a thing for Japanese games might intercede on my behalf.

That's my conservative view on the matter.

 

[The_Darkness]

Why exactly is diversity good or necessary? I keep seeing posts about needing more diversity in games, but I've never seen any arguments for why we need more diversity in games (I've heard opinions, but not arguments).

Is it just "common sense", like "games causes sexism"?

Why is it "bad" with a game of all black/white/yellow people? Why must all colors (not to mention genders, disabilities, and body sizes) be included? What is the benefit?

The short, easy answer?

There are members of the audience who would like to see more diversity. That's it - the demand is there. At the end of the day, that's why the conversation is happening.

I mean, heck, I like RPGs. I like Action Adventures. I don't need arguments for why I like those things - I just do like them. And, similarly, I would like to see a bit more diversity in the cast of these games. Do I actually need to justify that desire?

EDIT: Just realised that the personal preference argument has already come up - I guess I'm just echoing it

 

[Fallow]

Why exactly is diversity good or necessary? I keep seeing posts about needing more diversity in games, but I've never seen any arguments for why we need more diversity in games (I've heard opinions, but not arguments).

Is it just "common sense", like "games causes sexism"?

Why is it "bad" with a game of all black/white/yellow people? Why must all colors (not to mention genders, disabilities, and body sizes) be included? What is the benefit?

The short, easy answer?

There are members of the audience who would like to see more diversity. That's it - the demand is there. At the end of the day, that's why the conversation is happening.

I mean, heck, I like RPGs. I like Action Adventures. I don't need arguments for why I like those things - I just do like them. And, similarly, I would like to see a bit more diversity in the cast of these games. Do I actually need to justify that desire?

Not at all. But you are saying that you want diversity, not that it's necessary. I am only asking for reasons why it's needed.
Likewise, demand does not mean that it's good, only that it is desired. Heroin is in demand as well, after all.
I too am seeing a greater demand than ever (in my limited view of the gaming community), and I'm wondering when someone will capitalise on this.

 

[Amaror]

It's always worthy of a few chuckles how many people will declare that "race/gender doesn't matter" when they're playing games, but the moment someone makes it mandatory for them to play a non-white, non-male character, suddenly it does matter, because they're "forcing" diversity. Son, I'm forced to play a dude the overwhelming majority of the time I play any game with a set protagonist. And yes, it is almost always a straight white dude to boot. You can't have your cake and eat it too: claim that that's fine that so many set protagonists are Video Game Steve because Video Game Steve's race/gender "doesn't matter," then cry to high heaven every time you don't have a choice but to play someone who doesn't share the same race or gender as Video Game Steve.

Really? Because i haven't seen anyone here complaining about Tomb Raider "forcing diversity". Or any other game that has a protagonist that is not white and male. What i have seen is people complaining about other people. Most of the people that say that "race/gender doesn't matter" are not doing so in opposition to games that feature non white-male protagonists. Their doing so in opposition to people that demand developers to introduce characters that are not white or male. That is what people have a problem with. It's also fine to say that you would like to have protagonists that are not white or male. The demanding part is the problem with controversies like the Unity thing a while back.

To offer a reason why many developers might not be so keen on featuring more non white-male characters, you just have to look how characters that are neither white or male are often received if their not perfect and the most competent person on the planet.
If you write a white-male character he can be anything and everyone's fine with it. He can be lazy, untalented, weak and clumsy and noone has any problem with it. Make that same character now a women or a poc and you immediatly have people complaining that you are making some king of offensive statement about all representatives of that ethnicity/gender with that one uncompetent character.
Just look at Dying Light. The character Jane is a woman and pretty much the most badass character in the entire game. She rescues the main character over and over again. But because she is in a position were she needs help just ONCE, she's suddenly a damsel in distress and a sexist and evil portrayal of women.

 

[Schadrach]

Heheh, that's awesome.

Can't say I understand the people who are made uncomfortable by this sort of thing. In games with character creation options I frequently make characters of races other than my own. Never had a problem with it.

About the closest I can think of is when I played that 2010 Aliens Vs Predator game. The marine you play during the human campaign is black. However, you don't see his face until the end. (Well, you do see him at the very start, but then the camera sort of slides into his head sideways, so it's easy to miss the fact that you're playing as the guy you just saw.) When I got to the end it came as a bit of a shock, since I'd just automatically projected my character being white.

PS. Loving the comments on the video. Not a single cogent argument to be seen, just "Waaaaah, SJWs!"

Meh, I managed to not care at all about Rust doing this, largely because it was the Rust devs deciding it would be an interesting thing to do, and not kowtowing to the outraged. If you want a game where you won't remember or realize (depending) what race/gender you're playing as, try Master Reboot.

I remember playing it when one of Anita's videos came out and thinking of the irony that she was going on about "women in refrigerators" while I was playing a game in which there was only one plot relevant male character, and the entire plot was centered on him being fridged before the game began (and not even telling you that part up front). It has a sequel in development right now, called Soul Axiom.

 

[Riot3000]

Lets see diversity in games such a "hot button issues". It is hard for me at times to wade through people just trying to perserve the status quo for weird unknown reasons and some people just spouting to sound self righteous and full of it.

I am cool with more diversity the whole "forcing developers" and tamper their artistic vision is crap because I gurantee you most of the these characters are because of some suits in a board room so rare is actual artistic freedom in AAA both in characters, stories and gameplay mechanics. Watch Dogs to me was a good example of the story and characters were just there I think it would of been better with a character creator and an open end story and gameplay.

Also to debunk the whole minorities and women should only be in if they are "well written". One that is up to opinion one persons deep character is another persons pretentious twat. That ties in to minority and women characters being under a microscope where any sort of imperfection will come under major scrutiny for little reason.

Diversity will not hamper anything if "forced" but AAA can't even get that good of white male characters unless we just have a real low standards for them so bring on the diversity let the chips fall where they may.

 

[McMarbles]

You know, this sounds like an artistic choice on the part of the developers. I thought we weren't allowed to complain about the developers making the game they wanted to make?

Or is that only when those choices align with what you wanted from them? I mean, that would make it an intellectually dishonest argument. But what do I know?

 

[Flames66]

Sounds like an interesting design choice. Unfortunately, it means I won't be playing it. In every game I play, my character is me and needs to represent me in game.

Can't say I understand the people who are made uncomfortable by this sort of thing. In games with character creation options I frequently make characters of races other than my own. Never had a problem with it.

And keep in mind, this isn't really a role playing game, this is a day z survival type game, you're character will never talk and you will really only see their hands, which can probably be covered by gloves at some point. So ultimately the look of your character matters as much as skin color does, meaning not at all, except for the weight we give skin color.

I never understood people who say they need a woman/black person/whatever to be able to relate to a character.

I almost never relate to game protagonist anyway, because I've never had to avenge anyone or go on a quest to save the world or find myself in some haunted place. Being a white guy isn't going to help IMO.

Personally, I don't get it either, if given the chance I always make something as far from myself as possible. If there is a non-human race to choose from, Ill pick it. If I'm stuck being human I'll make a female. If I'm stuck being male I'll be black. Being a white guy in games tends to be last resort for me.

But some people seem to mostly want to play what they look like, so it must suck when you tend to be stuck being a white guy, if you're not one.

In games I design my character to represent me. I rarely play games with a pre-written protagonist anymore because I prefer to play as myself.

I don't think the problem is the race, I think the problem is the lack of ownership (and therefore identity). You are expected to identify as this avatar, but the very first thing that happens is that the avatar is assigned cosmetics that you in no way identify with. For people with a strong personal image it will make them uncomfortable.

Exactly.

Same here. None of my 3 Morrowind characters were "white male", and I spent hundreds of hours there. Heck, 1st one was a bloody Argonian. Then went female Redguard. Then Dunmer.

In the Elder Scrolls games, I usually play a Dark Elf (the red eyes and dark skin make me feel cool and mysterious). I had an interesting character moment with fantasy racial discrimination in Skyrim upon arriving in Windhelm. I was torn about what to do as I had decided to stay out of the politics of the land, but felt compelled to do something to help my people.

I seems to me that the developers of Rust might be trying to force that kind of experience to be part of their game. It appears to be making people think and discus race and what it means, but it is a risky move and has definitely cost them customers.

 

[CaitSeith]

One of the curious observations they made was that, depending of which character was generated, some players received racist or sexist jokes from some other players.

 

[CritialGaming]

The fact stands though that diversity in gaming or really any form of media should come naturally from good storytelling, not forced by some public checklist. If your game includes character customizationmake it robust enough that players can create whatever they want and go from there.

 

[PapaGreg096]

You know, this sounds like an artistic choice on the part of the developers. I thought we weren't allowed to complain about the developers making the game they wanted to make?

Or is that only when those choices align with what you wanted from them? I mean, that would make it an intellectually dishonest argument. But what do I know?

Why aren't we allowed to complain its, freedom of speech hell most of the time I hear how people complain about some games being too brown or gray

 

[McMarbles]

You know, this sounds like an artistic choice on the part of the developers. I thought we weren't allowed to complain about the developers making the game they wanted to make?

Or is that only when those choices align with what you wanted from them? I mean, that would make it an intellectually dishonest argument. But what do I know?

Why aren't we allowed to complain its, freedom of speech hell most of the time I hear how people complain about some games being too brown or gray

Haven't been to a lot of these threads, have you.

Every time someone suggests that more diversity is a good thing, or that it would be nice to have games where 99% of the female presence doesn't consist of hookers and strippers, we get the argument that that's compromising the artist's vision, that god forbid we compromise the artist's vision. You'll often see these same folks in another thread complaining about control systems or art styles or that a particular game mode isn't available, or that the developers added a character that's a tribute to a certain controversial figure in the gaming world. Apparently none of that is covered by "the developer's decision, but I digress, the developer's artistic vision is absolutely sacred! When it comes to things that don't bother ME in particular.

 

[PapaGreg096]

I never understood the "can't get immersed because of MC's X": you play a vampire, riding unicorns in a fantasy land, wait, that vampire is WHITE?! IMMERSION GONE!

In the end it falls apart because it's a fucking video game with zombies and crafting, not some deep game that actually expands on it. Not to mention that a company doing a huge publicity stunt and then lamenting how they did it from the kindness of their hearts rather than boost awareness doesn't sound very truthful.

So... then you agree that we need more diversity? Because your point about "I never understood the "can't get immersed because of MC's X": you play a vampire, riding unicorns in a fantasy land, wait, that vampire is WHITE?! IMMERSION GONE!" means that having something other then a white guy as a main character is good.

Or am I missing your point?

If I understood correctly you're missing my sarcasm, the vast majority of games are fantastical in one way or another so it seems to me that if you can relate to a character despite him living jn a completely different world but consider that character not having the same sex/race what breaks your immersion (not for example, giant worms) then it's extremely silly.

Also, I'll add the classic "if you want games with an X lead (X being a minority), than play a game from a country where X is the majority", why should american/european studios not go for most of the people in their countries?

Not gonna lie a good chunk of these are good but most of them are mobile games and I was mostly referring to AAA titles
Can you show me a game where the country it originated from where black or african is the majority.

A single google search: http://www.itnewsafrica.com/2013/10/top-10-african-game-developers/

Admittly a good chunk of these are good but most of them are mobile games (I'm focusing on AAA) and the others are the type of racing games where the driver is basically non existent

 

[Danbo Jambo]

Tolerance, open mindedness and respect for each other is as much about freedom of choice as it is freedom of being.

At it's root there's no difference between forcing someone to be a race they aren't, and imposing judgements and restrictions on someone based on race. Both are just one power imposing their authority over someone else's.

"Don't like what I like, judge how I judge, be what we want" it's just another form of oppression.

Not the way to go about sorting racism, nor breeding tolerance. I'm not racist, but I've no hate for people who are as that's their choice and they have that right to that POV. I can't think of a worse way to encourage a backlash, and thus even more racism, than forcing a racist to be a race they hate. It provokes and instant backlash.

Therefore the game actually does the opposite of what it sets out to do.

Give racists a choice and incentive to be a race they hate (i.e. game rewards, different POV's & quests etc.) and then by using encouragement instead of oppression you stand a far better chance of having them open to other POV's.

Right idea Rust, wrong implementation.

 

[Olas]

I kinda like the idea, you can't choose your race or gender in real life, so it's kinda realistic that you wouldn't be able to decide it in the game.

Anyway, aren't videogames about slipping into anther personality in another world? Why would I want to look like myself in real life? I'm not a short stereotypical Italian or a blue hedgehog.

 

[CritialGaming]

But I am a Powerarmor-wearing Space Marine!

 

[renegade7]

That actually sounds like a really neat idea. In the real world, there are aspects of your appearance that you don't really get to pick. Philosophically, it's kind of neat.

But practically, I really wish more games did this so that they wouldn't tempt me to spend half an hour on character creation for something I won't look at in detail basically ever again.

 

[Riot3000]

The fact stands though that diversity in gaming or really any form of media should come naturally from good storytelling, not forced by some public checklist. If your game includes character customizationmake it robust enough that players can create whatever they want and go from there.

"Good" storying telling is the most subjective thing ever and I am not trusting that to work as a natural progression. The standard right no is no more of a public checklist than this "forced" action your talking about.

 

[Mong0]

As a brown person, I've never had any complaints with playing as a white character, or the opposite sex for that matter, because I approach the game with the understanding that I am not the subject of the story.

The question is: Are you fine with you never being similar to the subject of the stories you take part in?

Similar how? Physically, yes, I'm fine with that. Similarity of mind is the only thing that really matters to me, and if the writing is good enough, I don't even really need that. Bottom line for me is that I want the game to be good; I don't really care about anything else.
[br/]
Personally, I would rather that activism not be an aspect of the hobby that I've invested over a decade into. In my experience, creating a narrative around a set of ideals, rather than letting it go in whatever direction its foundation and logic would imply that it should go in, lessens its quality. This would become an issue when creating a game with diversity as a core moral, because, should the plot touch on that subject, they'll be restricted to only presenting the side of the issue that the game is designed to support. Thats not just an issue with diversity either, any moral, when it becomes too sacred for the creators to criticize, will lessen the quality of the narrative. This sort of thing results in shallow characterizations, as the writer only tests the character with scenarios that support his cause, rather than thoroughly testing them with many varying scenarios so that the audience can see what they're made of. Alternatively, I've seen bias present in how the character responds, regardless of scenario, making them seem unresponsive and unintelligent.

So you want narratives that are completely non-committal to any sort of stance whatsoever? I'm sorry, but those don't exist.

Because every character has motivations - ie, ideals they strive towards. And every narrative has a moral to convey. If you have conflict, then you have morals, because one side is right and one is wrong. Or rather, one side has relate-able motivations and the other does not.

Or both are wrong and the game is an exploration of immorality, or both are right and it's an exploration of differing morality. But a moral stance is always present, except in the most basic kinds of games.

And I do believe the general idea is to have games with diversity that isn't explicitly about diversity.

And the medium - All mediusm - Have had activism since their inception. With video games, it has ranged from developers wanting to be recognized for the work they do, modern gamers wanting to cast off the stigma of video games being for kids and all the campaigns and attempts to censor and ban video games.

Stories like that in games do exist. Not all stories are written to reinforce a set of values, and writing one around a value and including one in the story are two different things. [br /]Also, even if you want diversity without that being the subject of the game, forcing the industry to change would still make diversity something that can't be criticized, because their audience is now the pro-diversity crowd, and they're going to try not to put them off.

 

[Fallow]

The fact stands though that diversity in gaming or really any form of media should come naturally from good storytelling, not forced by some public checklist. If your game includes character customizationmake it robust enough that players can create whatever they want and go from there.

While there definitely are practical reasons to avoid "diversity" (getting lambasted on Twitter by SJWs being foremost), saying that it may only come as a result of good storytelling seems out of place. After all, a terribly written white dude is no different from a terribly written non-white non-dude.
I even recall an acquaintance of mine saying that equality is when there are just as many underqualified and overpaid female board members as underqualified and overpaid male boardmembers in a nation. I don't know what that means, but maybe it applies.