Too much diversity.

[Mutant1988]

Stories like that in games do exist. Not all stories are written to reinforce a set of values, and writing one around a value and including one in the story are two different things. [br /]

Nearly all narratives games are written around a value and definition of what constitutes good and what constitutes bad. That's imposing a morality on the audience. The only difference is that you agree with it.

Who said anything about "re-inforcing" values? You said you wanted games devoid of it and I'm telling you that doesn't exist in a game with a narrative. Even in a choice driven game, you pick choices dictated and written by someone else and the outcome of your choices is decided for you. That's again them imposing their views on you. Whether you like the story or not tends to boil down to how well you agree with the views being presented and how much you sympathize with the characters involved.

Also, even if you want diversity without that being the subject of the game, forcing the industry to change would still make diversity something that can't be criticized, because their audience is now the pro-diversity crowd, and they're going to try not to put them off.

The problem here is that the pro-diversity crowd doesn't consist of non-gamers that want to ruin gaming, but of gamers that want representation and variety.

This whole idea that the push for diversity is being driven solely by people that aren't gamers is nothing but a conspirational delusional fantasy.

How is that any different from the "core" audience in publishes and developers striving not to put them off. Judging by so many replies in this topic, the mere attempt at promoting diversity or making a statement about it is reason for harsh critique, accusations of ulterior motives or incompetence.

Do this - You lose. Do that - You lose.

And judging by responses here, wanting diversity needs to be defended, while the status quo doesn't need to be and should never be actively challenged - It will just sort itself.

Things don't work that way.

And no one was forced anything in this instance. The developers put their vision in their game, because that's how creativity works.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

This argument is very poor.

Stated premise: people are more likely to connect/identify with a protagonist who resembles their ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

Implied premise: games should cater to the wants of their audience - especially if those games want to make money for future development.

Assumed premise: studies and surveys indicate the most substantial demographic for core AAA games is white, heterosexual, and male.

Conclusion: for the majority of AAA games, a white, hetero, male protagonist makes the most sense.

You can't make an appeal to the preferences of smaller demographics while simultaneously ignoring the preferences of the dominant demographic. That's not how capitalism or free market economics work. These dummies are cloaking a moral argument in a rational shell, and it doesn't survive impact with the reality of the free market system we collectively endorse.

You know that kickstarter employee, Nicole He, who makes the incredibly inflammatory racist comments about white men on her twitter all the time? She recently remarked that she would love to play Witcher 3 if she didn't have to be an old man doing old man things. Now the protagonist of this game is fixed by the source material, but if it weren't? The hero would probably still be a grizzled straight white male. Because there are more people who want to play as a grizzled white male than there are people who want to play as, I dunno, a racist Asian woman.

Edit: sidebar: on reflection, I'd personally much, much rather play a video game as a racist Asian woman. This makes me a part of a minority demographic, and it makes sense that the only games catering to my sensibilities are highly niche and relatively under-budgeted. I'm not going to throw public hissy fits about publishers and devs failing to make the games I want to play when I know full-well that the economics do not support such behavior.

 

[CritialGaming]

[quote "fallow"]While there definitely are practical reasons to avoid "diversity" (getting lambasted on Twitter by SJWs being foremost), saying that it may only come as a result of good storytelling seems out of place. After all, a terribly written white dude is no different from a terribly written non-white non-dude. [/quote]

I didn't say it ONLY could, I said that it SHOULD. Good writing of characters ensures diverse backgrounds and lifestyles and so on.

Sure you could make Commander Shepard gay just for the hell of it. But if the writting of his character doesn't make his sexually make sense contextually with everything else about him, then it is simple forced and pigeon-holed into the game.

That's why I say good writing should result in diversity in gaming. It should not be forced into narative, or plugged into the playable character slot like Skittles.

 

[Mong0]

Stories like that in games do exist. Not all stories are written to reinforce a set of values, and writing one around a value and including one in the story are two different things. [br /]

Nearly all narratives games are written around a value and definition of what constitutes good and what constitutes bad. That's imposing a morality on the audience. The only difference is that you agree with it.

Who said anything about "re-inforcing" values? You said you wanted games devoid of it and I'm telling you that doesn't exist in a game with a narrative. Even in a choice driven game, you pick choices dictated and written by someone else and the outcome of your choices is decided for you. That's again them imposing their views on you. Whether you like the story or not tends to boil down to how well you agree with the views being presented and how much you sympathize with the characters involved.

Thats not at all what I was saying. I was saying that bias hurts the story, and that games where the plot develops naturally around the planned events, rather than the writer's own morals, flows more logically.

Also, even if you want diversity without that being the subject of the game, forcing the industry to change would still make diversity something that can't be criticized, because their audience is now the pro-diversity crowd, and they're going to try not to put them off.

The problem here is that the pro-diversity crowd doesn't consist of non-gamers that want to ruin gaming, but of gamers that want representation and variety.

This whole idea that the push for diversity is being driven solely by people that aren't gamers is nothing but a conspirational delusional fantasy.

How is that any different from the "core" audience in publishes and developers striving not to put them off. Judging by so many replies in this topic, the mere attempt at promoting diversity or making a statement about it is reason for harsh critique, accusations of ulterior motives or incompetence.

Do this - You lose. Do that - You lose.

And judging by responses here, wanting diversity needs to be defended, while the status quo doesn't need to be and should never be actively challenged - It will just sort itself.

Things don't work that way.

And no one was forced anything in this instance. The developers put their vision in their game, because that's how creativity works.

If developer want to produce diverse games I don't really care, I wont play it or praise it for this when its implemented as nonsensically as it was this time though. Regarding this movement that pushes for diversity, though; even if they're gamers, it doesn't give them the right to try to hijack the industry. This is because there are still plenty of gamers who think that not only is diversity not being considered during a game's production not a problem, but using diversity as a metric for success will reduce the end product's quality. Should we just shut up and watch while an easy excuse for lazy developers and cheap publishers to create bad products is pushed as virtuous?

 

[CritialGaming]

I'm starting to miss the 8-bit days when we had to use our imaginations as to WTF the character was.

 

[Mutant1988]

Well, even if thats the case, it still doesn't give them the right to try to hijack the industry. There are still plenty of gamers who think that not only is diversity not being considered during a game's production not a problem, but using diversity as a metric for success will reduce the end product's quality. Should we just shut up and watch while an easy excuse for lazy developers and cheap publishers to create bad products is pushed as virtuous?

Again, this is assuming that no one that wants diversity is actually a gamer with a set of standards for what constitute a good game.

Do give me an example of a game that has been compromised by it's efforts towards improving diversity.

As for trying to hijack the industry... I don't see it. If anything, the harassment campaigns against anyone petitioning for change or even just bringing up the subject of the lack of diversity seems far more severe than any pro-diversity campaign I've seen.

Mostly, it seems like people just want a part of the industry.

There are still plenty of gamers who think that not only is diversity not being considered during a game's production not a problem,

And surprising no one - Those people are usually in the group which is represented by default. It's difficult to find reason to object when they're already getting what they prefer.

 

[Mong0]

Well, even if thats the case, it still doesn't give them the right to try to hijack the industry. There are still plenty of gamers who think that not only is diversity not being considered during a game's production not a problem, but using diversity as a metric for success will reduce the end product's quality. Should we just shut up and watch while an easy excuse for lazy developers and cheap publishers to create bad products is pushed as virtuous?

Again, this is assuming that no one that wants diversity is actually a gamer with a set of standards for what constitute a good game.

Do give me an example of a game that has been compromised by it's efforts towards improving diversity.

As for trying to hijack the industry... I don't see it. If anything, the harassment campaigns against anyone petitioning for change or even just bringing up the subject of the lack of diversity seems far more severe than any pro-diversity campaign I've seen.

Mostly, it seems like people just want a part of the industry.

There are still plenty of gamers who think that not only is diversity not being considered during a game's production not a problem,

And surprising no one - Those people are usually in the group which is represented by default. It's difficult to find reason to object when they're already getting what they prefer.

I fucked up my post and completely rewrote it, I meant to quote you and write a bit more.

Anyways, I've heard people cite borderlands for forced inclusiveness that hurt the writing. I've seen some of dragon age 3's characterizations, I refuse to play it after they butchered the combat though, and it seems to me like diversity is just used as a smokescreen to get away with crappy writing. I would identify this game as one that is definitely hurt by it, as there is just no good reason to not be able to create your own protag in a game where nothing depends on who you are.

 

[Mutant1988]

I would identify this game as one that is definitely hurt by it, as there is just no good reason to not be able to create your own protag in a game where nothing depends on who you are.

There is - To challenge the argument that the character being identifiable doesn't matter, while the majority audience still insist on having their own representation.

If it doesn't matter, why is it such a big deal to not have the choice?

Anyways, I've heard people cite borderlands for forced inclusiveness that hurt the writing.

Not really. What makes Borderlands writing crap is the reliance on memes, lol-random and references. The sexuality of characters is just there, like it's nothing out of the ordinary, and I don't really see them being offensive to anyone.

And what does "forced inclusiveness" even mean? Wasn't Borderlands 2 written before this whole "controversy" even began?

If anything, the writers seems to not be forced anything, but simply write what they want to - If only to get a reaction.

 

[Zipa]

Personally I think the Galbrush Paradox has merit as to why a lot of protagonists are straight white men.

Spoiler

Spoilered so it doesn't take up too much space, the tl;dr version of it is that devs fear to make characters a minority because they will get branded as a sexist or misogynist or a number of other things if their characters go through some shit, where as if they are male and white no one cares.

That said I wouldn't have issue with some more diverse characters as long as it fits the theme of the game or the story its telling, shoehorning them in for the sake of it or because of some quota defeats the whole point. We also shouldn't shit on games like GTAV for not having a female main character, clearly Rockstar have a story that they are trying to tell and no one should force them to their story just because its not diverse.

 

[Windcaler]

If you want to make a game specifically about the persecution minorities might go through (and I stress might because I dont see persecution happening in my town despite the population being around 80% caucasian) then I think thats fine. However I dont really see a point in this game. A game about survival, I would think, wouldbe about survival not persecution on a societal level (I suppose there could be merit if the game allowed you to form actual societies which Im unsure if Rust does at this time)

From my perspective I like to do some limited roleplay in most of my characters. I get it if the story requires a specific character but I still like to create a character with a specific persona in mind. I get more out of it by actually putting myself in that persons shoes. In that sense I would get less out of rust I think (not that Im really into that kind of game after my massive DayZ binge awhile back)

 

[Areloch]

I fucked up my post and completely rewrote it, I meant to quote you and write a bit more.

Anyways, I've heard people cite borderlands for forced inclusiveness that hurt the writing.

Interestingly, the one writer for Borderlands 2 did an article somewhere I read where they specifically talked about how none of the main characters had many lines because they were afraid of alienating people. And all it did was annoy players because the characters were bland. As they started having characters have a bit more personality, they dialed back, I think it was Gidget's, drinking problems because she was a teen and that could offend people.

And were once again proven wrong when players loved the characterization.

You know, this sounds like an artistic choice on the part of the developers. I thought we weren't allowed to complain about the developers making the game they wanted to make?

Or is that only when those choices align with what you wanted from them? I mean, that would make it an intellectually dishonest argument. But what do I know?

I'd say there's a distinction between going "Man, I wish they'd do more of X or have more of Y" and generating a huge stink and petitions and demands to have the game changed.

One is a personal opinion on the art, the other is demanding it to be changed in an attempt to force the developer to change their works.

Also, does anyone have that Gal Brush image? I feel that it's relevant.

 

[Mong0]

I would identify this game as one that is definitely hurt by it, as there is just no good reason to not be able to create your own protag in a game where nothing depends on who you are.

There is - To challenge the argument that the character being identifiable doesn't matter, while the majority audience still insist on having their own representation.

If it doesn't matter, why is it such a big deal to not have the choice?

Anyways, I've heard people cite borderlands for forced inclusiveness that hurt the writing.

Not really. What makes Borderlands writing crap is the reliance on memes, lol-random and references. The sexuality of characters is just there, like it's nothing out of the ordinary, and I don't really see them being offensive to anyone.

And what does "forced inclusiveness" even mean? Wasn't Borderlands 2 written before this whole "controversy" even began?

If anything, the writers seems to not be forced anything, but simply write what they want to - If only to get a reaction.

The reason its a big deal is because the player character doesn't have an identity that the game's context depends on, and yet despite this, you aren't allowed to choose, they're denying the player the choice to make a political statement. That sort of thing, shitting on good design for the sake of politics, is exactly what I'm talking about. It is typical convention to allow players to choose who they are when the game does not rely on a written identity because it lets everyone play as themselves. This is important because blank characters like these are supposed to be self inserts.

Regarding borderlands, thats just what I've heard people say. I opted to avoid that game when I heard bad things about how it integrated rpg elements with fps gameplay. Forced inclusiveness is inclusiveness for its own sake, rather than because it makes sense within the context of the game.

 

[CritialGaming]

If you want to make a game specifically about the persecution minorities might go through (and I stress might because I dont see persecution happening in my town despite the population being around 80% caucasian) then I think thats fine. However I dont really see a point in this game. A game about survival, I would think, wouldbe about survival not persecution on a societal level (I suppose there could be merit if the game allowed you to form actual societies which Im unsure if Rust does at this time)

Doesn't Papers Please do this? At least on a auxiliary level?

 

[asdfen]

Why would fictional realms such as games need realistic representation of minorities?
Why would games that are mostly playd by dudes need to cater to some psyco feminism/gay rights thats going around?

Games like Postal/Southpark offended almost everyone yet some of us find it fun and enjoyable. With so called diversity stuffed down developers throats latest Southpark just couldnt be as the whole primary cast is white dude. Why do games need to be lukewarm crap that is afraid to offend? Wouldnt that just lead to crappy games that do not fully statisfy anyone?

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I am appalled that I cannot play as bisexual squirl from outerspace in every game that is made in my immage that clearly states that I am strong emancipated black woman of mexican origins

You say that like you want every game to be like that. If that were the case, the other people pushing for diversity couldn't get just some of the games to be less straight white guy lead.
I mean most non-extremists just want a slice of the pie, not the whole thing.

The reason why so many protagonists are white males is simple, when you think about it: because the people making the games are also white males. If a writer wants to create a new main character to write about, they're going to utilise their own knowledge (i.e what's familiar / relatable to them) to do so. Of course we're going to end up with another Marcus Fenix if most designers and writers are from the 80s / 90s, where the steroid-jacked, one-liner-sputing action heroes of yesteryear like Arnie and were the norm in TV and cinema.

In fact, I can't think of a single prominent figure in the Games Industry who is a minority. People like Shinji Mikami and Suda51 do come to mind, but they've got their own influences with the weird Japanese filter on everything they touch.

Now do we really NEED diversity? Not really. it would be nice if it was there, but it's not a necessity. Lack of diversity is honestly a relatively minor barrier, and most people would have no trouble just ignoring the race / gender of their avatar and just engaging in that avatar's story.

That being said, I do agree with the video saying it's an interesting design choice; forcing a player to be black despite their actual race may very well open their eyes to the difference in treatment that black people receive. I don't think Rust's case is a 'look at us we're so inclusive and diverse!' thing, it's more of a social experiment to try and increase awareness / empathy towards others.

The thing about your argument is that we've thousands of years of media, Books, plays, comicbook, TV, movies (even rom-coms), videogames, etc. all largely written by men, yet we do, on occassion get great minority/female characters. We generally have at least one character that isn't a straight white guy.
Virtually no one stops writing all of a sudden, and goes to find a woman to write in the woman's parts. A straight white writer doesn't go out and bug a black guy to write a character for him.
The vast majority of beloved female game characters were created by, and written by men in essense, which leaves me more inclined to believe it's some outside force against diversity that is hampering writing.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Personally I think the Galbrush Paradox has merit as to why a lot of protagonists are straight white men.

Spoiler

Spoilered so it doesn't take up too much space, the tl;dr version of it is that devs fear to make characters a minority because they will get branded as a sexist or misogynist or a number of other things if their characters go through some shit, where as if they are male and white no one cares.

That said I wouldn't have issue with some more diverse characters as long as it fits the theme of the game or the story its telling, shoehorning them in for the sake of it or because of some quota defeats the whole point. We also shouldn't shit on games like GTAV for not having a female main character, clearly Rockstar have a story that they are trying to tell and no one should force them to their story just because its not diverse.

That article leaves out one very critical variable. How accepting people would be if Galbrush were the HERO of the game, overcoming everything despite all the negative flaws? That means a lot to some people. It means the world to me.
A lot of characters people go on about being mistreated aren't the heroes of the game, and hell the female gender rarely is the hero of the game. People generally don't like being represented almost purely as pawns in the majority's world, they want to be the power players. Even if they aren't obviously the powerful ones, they still make a difference to the world and everyone is counting on them.

 

[RedRockRun]

Who fucking cares? If you absolutely need to feel like you, yourself need representation in a fucking video game, you're a self-entitled monster. And every time someone not white and/or male is put into pop culture, the media goes nuts about it. A WOMAN protagonist! New character is BLACK! Then we get a deluge of "Gamer community shows OUTRAGE over BLACK character!" as if it's not enough for them to build and burn down strawmen. They all but grow the straw and chop down trees to make matches.

And since when has anyone had a hard time getting into a game because their race isn't represented anyway? Not only are you an entitlement fiend, you're also far too obsessed about race to begin with. Get the fuck over yourself. Human races and ethnic groups are not hiveminds.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I think they make a good point, but that point is based entirely on a very big false equivalency. Like, what they are saying is true to some extent, diversity is good and I want more of it. But the rust "problem" is that you are playing as yourself. The avatar in rust is supposed to be specifically you, which is where the disconnect comes from. That avatar is supposed to be me but it clearly is not. Now, that would not bother me but I can see how it would bother someone else.

Comparing that to games where you step into the shoes of a distinct character, such as Nathan Drake, is really kind of stupid. The game avatar is not intended to be representative of you. These people are not going to have the same reaction to playing as Franklin in GTA V as they are to playing as a black avatar in rust.

That said, I don't think the rust problem is actually a problem. It was a design decision, and by the looks of it a very effective one.

Snip.

I don't think the problem is the race, I think the problem is the lack of ownership (and therefore identity). You are expected to identify as this avatar, but the very first thing that happens is that the avatar is assigned cosmetics that you in no way identify with. For people with a strong personal image it will make them uncomfortable.

Can I just say something?

You nailed this right on the first page. Kudos.

Quick anecdotal example: Walking Dead Season 2 was amazing to me. I loved the character interaction and actually felt quite powerfully about them by the end of the journey.

I am not a little (black? biracial?) girl (shocking, I know), yet I still somehow got into it and greatly enjoyed the experience. Same with Lee in Season 1. Black dude. Didn't even notice. Didn't matter.

Now...

If I were playing a game like Rust, not being able to pick my character would kinda suck, but it wouldn't be THAT big of an issue. That's just because I have a perpetual hard-on for customization options though. Not like I can properly identify with a voiceless pair of hands (Gordon and Chell not withstanding) floating in front of my pixel face anyway. I CAN understand people (anybody, any race, any sex/gender/whatever) being a bit miffed about the lack of customization options in a character that is, for all intents and purposes, their personal representation in game.

Established characters? Custom characters? Apples to oranges. EC is off base.

 

[PapaGreg096]

Who fucking cares? If you absolutely need to feel like you, yourself need representation in a fucking video game, you're a self-entitled monster. And every time someone not white and/or male is put into pop culture, the media goes nuts about it. A WOMAN protagonist! New character is BLACK! Then we get a deluge of "Gamer community shows OUTRAGE over BLACK character!" as if it's not enough for them to build and burn down strawmen. They all but grow the straw and chop down trees to make matches.

And since when has anyone had a hard time getting into a game because their race isn't represented anyway? Not only are you an entitlement fiend, you're also far too obsessed about race to begin with. Get the fuck over yourself. Human races and ethnic groups are not hiveminds.

So some people are monsters just because they want to be represented, really just because one day I noticed that there aren't a lot of AAA games with a black protagonist that automatically makes me a monster

 

[CritialGaming]

So some people are monsters just because they want to be represented, really just because one day I noticed that there aren't a lot of AAA games with a black protagonist that automatically makes me a monster

Gears of War, GTA San andreas and GTA V, 50 Cent Bulletproof, Streets of Rage, Final Fantasy 7 and 13, Left 4 Dead, Borderlands, Dead Island, Prototype 2, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Call of Duty Modern Warfare.

Yeah there aren't that many I guess.