Too much luck (not enough skill) in strategy games?

[loyaldrone]

A friend linked me to this blog post from Lunarch Studios, an independent video game development company. And it got me thinking about how dependent many turn-based and card-style games are on luck rather than skill.

TL;DR: Many pro video game players in games like Hearthstone are complaining that the game depends too heavily on RNG. Too much reliance on absolute luck (rather than "yomi luck," or mind games) can destroy players' enjoyment.

What do you think?

http://bit.ly/VNRlCK

 

[Pink Gregory]

How can a card game that involves the drawing of cards from a deck as a 'mechanic', so to speak, not involve an element of luck?

In fact I'm not really sure you can conflate a card game with a strategy game. Magic the Gathering isn't a strategy game, it's a game that can involve strategy.

Then again I believe that adapting to random elements is a strategic mechanic, in theory anyway.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well I've been saying it for years, if you want a card game truly competitive you don't shuffle the deck.
That is in fact one of the things physical card players rely on because you can't actually randomize physical cards with anything but extraordinary effort... which no one will go to.

 

[sageoftruth]

Extra Credits covered something like this a few weeks ago. Here's the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9ZI9kMsvRQ

 

[The Madman]

One of the main elements of strategy in any decent card game ala Hearthstone or Magic is knowing how to build a deck capable of mitigating the effects of luck. One that can either reliably provide useful cards or one that gives you the ability to 'draw' useful cards. Or, alternatively, a deck that uses luck to its advantage by using cards which either direct the luck based elements in the players favor or use it against their opponents.

Luck is part of the game and indeed part of the strategy. It's also part of what makes stuff like Hearthstone so fun to watch; you can never be quite sure what will happen next. How the player reacts and how well they react to the unexpected is also what divides a casual player from a pro.

I also don't really think it's all that comparable to something like Chess or a traditional strategy game ala Starcraft or Civilization.

 

[RomanceIsDead]

One of the main elements of strategy in any decent card game ala Hearthstone or Magic is knowing how to build a deck capable of mitigating the effects of luck. One that can either reliably provide useful cards or one that gives you the ability to 'draw' useful cards. Or, alternatively, a deck that uses luck to its advantage by using cards which either direct the luck based elements in the players favor or use it against their opponents.

Luck is part of the game and indeed part of the strategy. It's also part of what makes stuff like Hearthstone so fun to watch; you can never be quite sure what will happen next. How the player reacts and how well they react to the unexpected is also what divides a casual player from a pro.

I also don't really think it's all that comparable to something like Chess or a traditional strategy game ala Starcraft or Civilization.

I know what you're trying to say but it was very vague.

 

[The Madman]

I know what you're trying to say but it was very vague.

How so? Basically I'm just saying that just because an element of luck is involved doesn't diminish the importance of strategic thinking, especially not in something like a card game which is designed intentionally with this in mind.

 

[Charleston]

A friend linked me to this blog post from Lunarch Studios, an independent video game development company. And it got me thinking about how dependent many turn-based and card-style games are on luck rather than skill.

TL;DR: Many pro video game players in games like Hearthstone are complaining that the game depends too heavily on RNG. Too much reliance on absolute luck (rather than "yomi luck," or mind games) can destroy players' enjoyment.

What do you think?

http://bit.ly/VNRlCK

Man, there sure is a lot of randomness in Chess uh! You do everything right and then a certain move that you have to pull of in a certain situation goes completely over your head and you lose. How am I supposed to control the things my brain unconsciously brings or doesn't bring up from my memories! That guy just won because he studied the variables two hours more than I did, and I didn't get those two hours because my dog ate a bar of chocolate and I had to take to the vet. How do I control my dogs stupidity? Pure chance, I'm tellin' ya.

I like the conclusion on that article, but it seems a bit pessimistic, like giving up on something. Clearly something written by a Computer Scientist, lol. Randomness is a natural part of everything we do, and it allows for amazing things. If we want to take away the feeling of unfairness in competitive games, I think there's a bigger issue to solve here: the poisonous feelings of anger that many games generate today. I'm not sure where they come from, that'd be interesting to think about, but the point is that I don't see people even bringing the question to the table. We tend to think about this feelings of ridiculous, undirected anger in a psychological and individualistic way, but I sense that there's something in the core of modern games that attracts such behaviours. Something that Chess obviously doesn't have. Hell, you don't even see Poker players bitching as much as people playing dota.

 

[Ylla]

I like the conclusion on that article, but it seems a bit pessimistic, like giving up on something. Clearly something written by a Computer Scientist, lol. Randomness is a natural part of everything we do, and it allows for amazing things.

HEY! Computer Scientists are neither pessimist nor give anything up.
WE GIVE EVERYTHING WE HAVE TO THE BIG NOTHING IN THE SKY!!
PRAISE THE BIG NOTHING!!!

Yes, not even poker players ***** as much as gamers, end the toxicity is more important than determining the actual randomness of a game. People should not ***** about the big nothing, it doesnt punish, it doesnt reward, it just exists, face it, and take whatever it gives.

 

[Elfgore]

A massive part of the strategy in card games, is building a well-balanced deck that can adapt to many situations, especially common ones. And making the most of what you have. I'd almost say my definition of "true" strategy is getting a victory in a situation where you have a disadvantage.

I don't play Hearthstone, but as someone who played a lot of Magic, this has been my experience.