Too Much WoW Hate?

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sapient

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Jan 23, 2008
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Yes, the game's complexity has dropped a lot since the pre-BC days. Remember when Pat first released a video, and every warrior was creaming themselves to see how much damage they could do? The complexity of the ranked honor system was that not only would you have to efficiently kill in PvP, but also put in a ridiculous amount of time. I remember Rise and Elysiux (to name two HWLs) putting in days, staying up late, sometimes all night, farming honour to keep their tanks up. Elysiux would constantly be tired and frustrated with the game, but he didn't give up and it was an incredibly large chunk of time it took away from his life. When Elysiux hit High Warlord I really realised how much time the game would take pre-BC. And what do you do now? Thirty arena games a week, pick up an MS Warrior and a Paladin and you're good to go until next Tuesday.

WoW has scaled down in challenge and thought (what happened to BWL? The old fights with all of us getting pissed because some prick popped Blade Flurry on Vael?), and I think that's a large part of why so many new players are queueing up. Pre-BC, PvP was respectable (monthlong grinds for The Unstoppable Force, farming long and hard for the bars for an Arcanite Reaper) but still time consuming. I guess Blizzard have reversed both factors and made PvP an absolute joke, and making it so easy that three hours every week can get you S3 if you're already decked in S2 when you start. PvE is piss easy (High King Maulgar was a joke, Blizzard) for starters, and the more you deck yourself out in 10-man epics the easier it gets, as opposed to harder (guilds that can't even communicate properly farming Void Reaver for easy epics? What happened to only pro guilds making it past Molten Core?).

The new influx of players will only cause Blizzard to build on this. We're not all Nihilum/DnT and we can't finish the entire raid content without trying, so Blizzard is setting the mark for a casual player (arena, heroics, badges) but going waaaaaay past that mark and making the game ridiculously easy (Easy 15 badges a day, 3 hours of arena a week). But yes, the game has drastically reduced in depth, and I doubt WOTLK or Sunwell is going to fix that. Remember early TBC? There was such a large flood of new content, everyone wanted to try it. So we did, and when the influx of 70s came 3-4 weeks later, the only new content was a select few instances and heroics, which pretty much gave new meaning to the words "recycle, reskin, reprogram". Every heroic is just a beefed up version of instances you've been through before, and to tell the truth I'm not impressed.

End wall of text, you can go back to ignoring my rants now.
 

tiredinnuendo

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Jan 2, 2008
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But what I think we're all forgetting here is this:

Anyone who has long, protracted discussions about elves and orcs and the various merits of each is a loser.

- J
 

hickwarrior

a samurai... devil summoner?
Nov 7, 2007
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tiredinnuendo said:
But what I think we're all forgetting here is this:

Anyone who has long, protracted discussions about elves and orcs and the various merits of each is a loser.

- J
Err what? Why is that? Don't the RPers like doing that stuff?

Anyway, i feel this thread is beginning to show more WoW-lovers(nothing bad about it, just saying) that all agree with each other... So, time to say, this thread should get locked up.
 

tiredinnuendo

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Jan 2, 2008
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hickwarrior said:
Err what? Why is that? Don't the RPers like doing that stuff?
It was intended to be a joke. Apologies if it came off incorrectly.

That said, your bit about "RPers" isn't helping the argument for them not being losers.

- J
 

McMo0^

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Dec 21, 2007
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If i'm totally honest i've never played WoW. I've watched people play it, but watchin people play a game and playing it is never the same. WoW looks boring, but thats not the reason i don't play it. I've lost friends to WoW and other pay monthly rpgs. I'll admit i'm a bit of a cs addict, but if theres something goin on round a mates, or a journey to the land of alcohol abuse, i'm game. The friends i know who got addicted to WoW stayed away from such social ventures. The only person i know to have recovered from this addiction lost his job and couldn't afford the net or WoW anymore, and suddenly found himself free. Now with money, flees from WoW related discussions in fear of the spark of addiction returning and his life disappearing. So i don't hate WoW cos of poor gaming features or anything to do with what it is, just what it did to some very close friends.
 

renahzor

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Nov 9, 2006
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I've played WoW since just a couple months after release, and to say WoW isnt boring now would be a flat out lie. My play time is pretty Limited now, a couple hours on 2 or 3 days week depending on my mood. Really its turned into a big chat room. I log in to BS with friends and maybe kill a couple monsters or see the newest boss they're working on, and on rare occasion run a raid to see some new gear.

Really the game was very fun on release, but the 1-60 content has been completely abandoned and basically they should just have a 3 month upfront payment and let you start at 60, because all of the lower level content has become nothing more than a big bunch of crap to keep you occupied while you get to 60. WoW was my third MMO, UO and EQ preceeded it but I didnt play either of those for very long. The things that make wow appeal to a vast audience is the same things that make it very boring. Before the expansion I was having a very good time with the game, and after it was just all down hill really. Daily quests(as if it didnt feel enough like a job already) and just the overall sense that they are constantly moving the "carrot" too far.

Basically, I dont hate WoW, but its age is starting to show alot. Ill likely keep an active subscription to keep in touch with friends whie we wait for something different to come along (and honestly, 15 bucks is pretty much nothing for me in the overall picture of things). Theres lots of things "wrong" with the WoW game model, and im hoping in the next few years we'll see MMO's with alot better features and alot more planned out approach to this pay-by-month type gameplay. The problem is, WoW has gotten SO BIG that game producers (and alot of developers) see money signs in the imitation of that flawed model. You can be sure as long as WoW is raking in 8-9M subscriptions a month (about $40M a month), its going to take a creative/brave indy developer to break that mould and come out with something thats truly fun to play and has lasting appeal.

Every time I sit down and play WoW now I constantly say to myself "Hey wouldnt it be awesome if (insert idea here)." I never go "Man, they did that just right, and that was a ton of fun!".

-Ren
 
Jan 24, 2008
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Gauwin,

I still dont know if WoW pvp will be for me. I haven't watched your video yet, but I know what I like, and I like Skill based pvp.

In Guild Wars you can play PvP for an eternity. In fact, you don't even have to PvE to make a Character for PvP. Right off the bat you can make a lvl 20 Character of any class(that you have access to, the 2nd two games brought on 2 new classes and if you don't own them, you cant play as them) that starts with a set of skills, including one FREE elite skill (just a skill that is better than others, only 1 on your bar at a time) and enough other crap to fill your 8 slot bar and begin to earn faction(points) to unlock more skills, armor(all of a short list of styles, but functional) weapons(same as armor), and runes/insignias to modify that armor.

ALL of this can be done without ever touching the storyline once! Now, saying that, your style is limited, and your choices of places to go with these characters is even more so limited since you can only be present in PvP areas. Which is just a small group of islands called the "Battle Isle's". But my point isn't that you can never touch the storyline, but that at any point in time if my team needs...lets say a flagger for a GvG. They want, a Ritualist/Dervish(in GW Primary+secondary classes rock :D) with blah blah blah on its skill bar. I've never made a PvE Rit, but I know how to run one like a pro, because i run this type of flagger before, and i know the build, and ive got the skills. all i need to do now is "roll" the damn thing and be in the Guild Hall hop on the last spot and run that flag like ive never run before!

i dont need to spend x hours raising him up to max level, getting an armor set with all of the right insignias, and runes, and the right weapon and off-hand sets,(which ill need atleast 4 different sets of for different attackers/spells) and make sure ive got all the right skills....

In GW I can hone my skills in whatever I want. The PvP'ers in GW in the top 100 are amazing. The Monks(healers) spend months learning how to position themselves, when to use what skills, learning bars(skills) learning their team's movements, etc,etc.

Guild Wars PvP isn't just a place to fight others. It is a sport. Skill, Practice, and hard work are all needed to be good.

I get the feeling that WoW PvP is just a place to show off your new weps/armor/poon a scrub 10 levels lower than you. Which I am also proud to say, that within the Battle Isles you must be max level to fight. So no "pwningz uv scrubz!!!" unless they are a scrub at heart and run a fag Warrior/Monk with Mending thinking they won't get demolished within the first 3 seconds of a match because they have 3 extra "bips" of Regen!!!

fucking scrubs...
 

sapient

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Jan 23, 2008
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WoW's battlegrounds are objective based and on set level parameters.

That isn't to say it's not hopelessly shallow - every class has a set routine vs another class, and it seems that the game is set in concrete. A warrior walks up to a frost mage, clicks a few buttons, then dies. The frost mage sits around with Deep Wounds ticking, then gets healed by a passing druid. A warrior is gouged by a rogue, clicks a few buttons, the rogue dies and the warrior has Garotte ticking. God help you if you try to 2vs1, because it's concrete whether you'll die or not vs class x or whether class y will screw up, because the error space for every class is so blisteringly huge you can fuck up your routine 4-5 times and still win.

PvP in WoW is epic fail.
 

PhoenixFlame

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Dec 6, 2007
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D'oh for my internet failing so I couldn't respond to this sooner.

I know a lot of people who dislike WoW and have played it extensively. In case someone says I can't quantify my disdain for it, I played from beta 2, into release to roughly just before TBC came out. I was in a raiding guild which defeated Naxxramas and was in the top 5 guilds of my server.

I don't "hate" WoW. But I definitely dislike it. Someone touched upon this already, but raiding is a chore and a job. It's the carrot on the stick that keeps people playing but when it becomes a necessary means to an end, that's when I start having problems.

My main issues with the game surround the change in game design from beta in being PvE and PvP even-handed to being a PvE-grinding game, and the awful community management and service. Now, I know since I left, changes have been made to make PvP advancement viable - however, they aren't enough to convince me that the game itself has trivialized all the previous content (1-60, which was actually well-developed) in favor of an endless endgame crafted to reward only a small percentage of the population rather than providing everyone with a generally fun experience.

In addition, I believe Blizzard has the resources to manage their community a little better, but refuse to do so. Anyone who has ever spent time on the WoW forums knows it is the worst cesspool of immaturity and unproductive posting since Bnet kiddies was a hot term. The maddening thing is that productive posts and thoughtful feedback is buried underneath the mountain of rickrolls, "lol" posts, and general flames and trolls. I'm aware of the extreme expense to keep a game like this running, but surely some concentration on fixing community tools would help in the long run.

As to the general subject, the best comparison I can make when it comes to WoW is restaurants. WoW is like Mcdonald's. A lot of people dislike McDonald's because of its unhealthy disposition and mass produced food. But a lot of people patronize McDonald's - millions, even billions - because it is convenient, easy, and generally, good tasting. This does not mean that McDonald's is the best hamburger you will ever have - it's simply the easiest and quickest hamburger you will find. Certain concessions are made so that this is the case - take a quick peek behind the counter at a McDonald's next time and watch how the production cycle is nothing like you might find in your own home or even at another restaurant. McDonald's has been an easy target for a lot of folks (see: lawsuits over hot coffee and making people fat, or the documentary "Super Size Me"), but it is clearly successful as a business model.

The key thing with McDonald's is - it isn't the only hamburger in town. And neither is WoW. WoW just happens to be the easiest and most prominent hamburger to eat at the moment.
 

Eudaemonian

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Jan 22, 2008
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I think the description of a "set routine" is kind of... broad. Yes, healers will heal, damages will damage. I don't think that's really rigid enough to define as a routine. Classes interact in a somewhat RPS fashion, if RPS had 8 classes with different specs of each that turn out different ways. Nowadays, your gear is almost more determinative than your class. If certain classes weren't good vs others (not all of which I think has been a part of explicit design, but rather emergent) what would be the alternative? Even if it weren't a class system X would have to be good against something... if not a class, then a type of armor, or style of play, and it would eventually be the same RPS system.

I hate WoW PvP, but that's for completely different reasons than everyone's more philosophical arguments. I'm bad at it. I don't play an RPG for tense frothy-mouthed twitching against another person. Not to mention you lose by default at this point if you haven't been pvping to get the grossly ridiculous pvp gear which gives you more stamina than god.